[jmciver]

After doing a bit of research to upgrade the audio in my Harmon Kardon equipped F80 M3 (specifically the amp), I came across multiple threads that discuss the Bavsound Revenant (the old one, not the current Pro version), Bimmer-Tech (the rebranded Audiotec PP 86DSP) and the Match UP 7BMW/UP 7DSP (also by Audiotec). But these PnP amp solutions only work with HiFi equipped cars, not HK - presumably because HK cars have more speaker channels than these amps can support (assuming you want to use all factory HK speaker channels, which I would want to do).

Then I came across these three items from Audiotec:

Match UP 10DSP Amp:
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...fiers/up-10dsp

Helix SDMI25 (MOST interface module):
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/h...ssories/sdmi25

BMW PnP Harness for HK Cars (F-Series):
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...-bmw-1-9hksdmi

It appears the Match UP 10DSP was released earlier this year so maybe it is still a bit too "new" which may be why I have been unable to find much info on BMW applications. Also, Audiotec does appear to advertise this equipment as a PnP option for HK equipped vehicles. But other than the literature on the Audiotec site, I have been unable to find any real world install/feedback on this equipment for HK equipped F-series BMWs (the F3x/F8x in particular).

I know the Revenant Pro by Bavsound is an option for HK equipped cars. But given an option, I like the DIY PC tunability of the Audiotec equipment, either by me or a local audio installer, over the SD card format of the Bavsound solution - especially since the price point is really close for both.

So does anyone have any insight/experience on this "new" Audiotec PnP equipment setup for HK equipped F3x/F8x BMWs?

UPDATE:
I installed this Match system and DIY tuned it. See post #46 for the results and my initial thoughts. I am pleased with the results .

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jmciver

After doing a bit of research to upgrade the audio in my Harmon Kardon equipped F80 M3 (specifically the amp), I came across multiple threads that discuss the Bavsound Revenant (the old one, not the current Pro version), Bimmer-Tech (the rebranded Audiotec PP 86DSP) and the Match UP 7BMW/UP 7DSP (also by Audiotec). But these PnP amp solutions only work with HiFi equipped cars, not HK - presumably because HK cars have more speaker channels than these amps can support (assuming you want to use all factory HK speaker channels, which I would want to do).

Then I came across these three items from Audiotec:

Match UP 10DSP Amp:
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...fiers/up-10dsp

Helix SDMI25 (MOST interface module):
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/h...ssories/sdmi25

BMW PnP Harness for HK Cars (F-Series):
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...-bmw-1-9hksdmi

It appears the Match UP 10DSP was released earlier this year so maybe it is still a bit too "new" which may be why I have been unable to find much info on BMW applications. Also, Audiotec does appear to advertise this equipment as a PnP option for HK equipped vehicles. But other than the literature on the Audiotec site, I have been unable to find any real world install/feedback on this equipment for HK equipped F-series BMWs (the F3x/F8x in particular).

I know the Revenant Pro by Bavsound is an option for HK equipped cars. But given an option, I like the DIY PC tunability of the Audiotec equipment, either by me or a local audio installer, over the SD card format of the Bavsound solution - especially since the price point is really close for both.

So does anyone have any insight/experience on this "new" Audiotec PnP equipment setup for HK equipped F3x/F8x BMWs?

I have a lot of respect for Audiotec BMW amplifiers. I wouldn't touch anything BavSound sells. They are just a slick marketing company.

I have a Harman Kardon audio system that I have upgraded. Whether to choose the Match Up 10 DSP amplifier as an upgrade depends on your goals. I'll describe how I upgraded. Then it depends on any improvements that using the Match Up 10DSP may provide and the cost difference.

UNDERSEAT SUBWOOFER UPGRADE
All three BMW audio systems have excellent speakers, but are lacking in the underseat subwoofers which should be replaced. Much has been written about how the BMW underseat sub boxes are too small for a typical sub to sound good. Almost all subs sold for underseat BMW locations are typical subs that have no technology to help them to sound better. They use slick marketing to try to sell them.

One underseat subwoofer actually has unique technology as proven by its standardized specifications. The Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) is a big improvement but it requires about 150watts per channel into 2-ohms to drive it properly.

All three BMW audio systems benefit from replacing the underseat subwoofers with Earthquake SWS-8Xi subs. They cost about $129 each and can be purchased from Walmart Online, Amazon or ECS Tuning. Also required is a pair of Earthquake R8SWS spacer rings for $25/pr either from those retailers or from Earthquake Sound directly. So the Earthquake underseat subwoofer upgrade costs about $283 total.

All three BMW audio systems require more power to the Earthquake underseat subwoofers, 2-channels of 150watts per channel into 2-ohms.

BASIC AUDIO SYSTEM
The Basic BMW Audio system (typically not sold in cars built for the US market) does not have a separate amplifier in the trunk. It only has a small amplifier built into the audio head unit in the dash. It's only driving four midrange speakers mounted one per door and two 6.5" underseat subwoofers mounted in 8" subwoofer cabinets.

The Audiotec Fisher Match Up 7DSP is the perfect amplifier addition. It installs in the left alcove of the trunk when stock amplifiers from the other systems are located. Audiotec makes two special wiring harnesses that are run in series from the amp in the trunk to the back of the head unit in the dash.

It's two amplifiers in one chassis with 7 DSP channels. It supplies the perfect high power to the Earthquakes and the perfect power to five other DSP channels. So it handles the four doors and you can add a center channel on top of the dash. The speaker bracket should already be in place. Tweeters can be added to the doors too.

The DSP system is superior to the DSP system that is standard in the Harman Kardon amplifier. It's a huge sound improvement.

MIDRANGE HIFI SYSTEM
The midrange system amplifier in the trunk can be easily upgraded with the plug and play Audiotec Fisher Match Up 7BMW amplifier. No cables are needed. The stock amp unplugs and the 7BMW plugs into the stock cables.

The 7BMW amplifier provides the same power distribution and same 7-channel DSP system as the 7DSP amplifier, but with the plug and play installation for the HiFi system. Tweeters can be added to the rear doors and to the center channel on top of the dash.

HARMAN KARDON SYSTEM
The HK system has a built-in DSP system with 14 speakers plus the two underseat subwoofers. It does not have adequate power to feed the two underseat Earthquakes. So to upgrade the HK system requires the Earthquakes and a secondary amplifier to properly power them. It's not easy to find an aftermarket amplifier with small size, the perfect power output and a built-in higher voltage Line Output Converter (LOC) to properly connect to the HK amplifier. The AudioControl ACM-2.300 is the perfect fit. A $55 interface harness from Technicpnp connects the two amplifiers without any cutting or splicing. It can be returned to stock in a few minutes. The total is about $400.

HK UPGRADE: 2ND AMP VS MATCH 10DSP
So the cost difference is $400 vs whatever the 10DSP and necessary interface components total.

The HK system was probably designed a decade ago. So the DSP system in the 10DSP amplifier is certainly more sophisticated, a big upgrade from the HK DSP system. It just depends if the additional sound field is worth the added cost.

I'm hoping that @Billfitz will chime in. Bill is the audio guru. I'm curious to hear his take on the DSP specs.

Hope this helps!

[jmciver]

Thanks johnung ! Especially the part about the under seat subs and the Earthquake recommendation, as I have been scratching my head on a decent underseat sub option. I have upgraded speakers (BimmerTech Alpha One’s, not installed yet), but not the subs. I know that if I were to get the 10DSP, 2 ohm subs are the best choice (based on my research and as you mentioned) vs 8 ohm subs if I keep the HK amp. That is why I have not purchased any subs yet. While I know price does not always equal quality (be it a high or low price), the Earthquake recommendation for use with the 10DSP is even more intriguing given the price point compared to most of the other sub options.

After recently upgrading the speakers in my HK equipped X7 with all Bavsound speakers (and subs), which made a significant improvement overall IMHO (especially combined with the coffin like cabin and a good music source streaming from Tidal), the HK system in the F80 sounds really bland now after 4+ years of ownership. So now I want to play with improving the sound in my F80, but taking a different path than what I did in my X7.

I like the 10DSP option vs the other option you mentioned in order to have a more compact solution with fewer components/amps. I also like the tunability feature of the 10DSP as well since I always like to “tinker” when I can…

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jmciver

Thanks johnung ! Especially the part about the under seat subs and the Earthquake recommendation, as I have been scratching my head on a decent underseat sub option. I have upgraded speakers (BimmerTech Alpha One's, not installed yet), but not the subs. I know that if I were to get the 10DSP, 2 ohm subs are the best choice (based on my research and as you mentioned) vs 8 ohm subs if I keep the HK amp. That is why I have not purchased any subs yet. While I know price does not always equal quality (be it a high or low price), the Earthquake recommendation for use with the 10DSP is even more intriguing given the price point compared to most of the other sub options.

After recently upgrading the speakers in my HK equipped X7 with all Bavsound speakers (and subs), which made a significant improvement overall IMHO (especially combined with the coffin like cabin and a good music source streaming from Tidal), the HK system in the F80 sounds really bland now after 4+ years of ownership. So now I want to play with improving the sound in my F80, but taking a different path than what I did in my X7.

I like the 10DSP option vs the other option you mentioned in order to have a more compact solution with fewer components/amps. I also like the tunability feature of the 10DSP as well since I always like to "tinker" when I can…

I hope you get the 10DSP. Bet it would sound great

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by johnung

The HK system was probably designed a decade ago. So the DSP system in the 10DSP amplifier is certainly more sophisticated, a big upgrade from the HK DSP system. It just depends if the additional sound field is worth the added cost.

The H-K DSP was obsolete when the F30 was introduced. Seven EQ bands is half the minimum I consider useful. I don't know if the sound fields are useful, but the DSP PC-Tool definitely is.

[jmciver]

I think the new sound fields offered in the G-series BMWs are better, specifically the ones that come with the B&W sound option. As I mentioned above, my X7 came with HK, with Logic 7 as the only sound field option. However, even though the B&W hardware is different than the HK hardware (the B&W adds four "roof" speakers IIRC and is a bit more powerful), HK cars can code on the B&W DSP profiles, which I did, for a noteworthy sound field improvement IMHO, with more options.

So my goal for the 10DSP in my F80 would be to replicate, but hopefully improve on, that listening experience based on the tunability and flexibility of the 10DSP and accompanying software.

[J555]

A really interesting option I wasn't aware of. Except I would like to see more power to subs @4 ohms, it looks very promising. Love the fact it can feed all the channels in the car.

While I would like to hear the real-world experience, I am going to ask the local AD/installer for their experience, and suggestions.

[mrberry]

please update with your finding once youve spoke to the local AD.

[jedi-knight83]

For what its worth. I had the up7BMW in my previous f31. I didn't feel it was actually any more powerful than the OEM S676A amp (that said I didn't run a separate power feed to the amp, rather used the OEM wiring to provide the power) but it did give the ability to control the time alignment and tweak the EQ much more accurately. Overall as a plug and play option its brilliant and I'd recommend it.

However. For my newer f31 I'm going with the Audison AP F8.9 amp / DSP. It requires a bit more wiring but its rated at 85w per channel (bridged to 260w for under seat subs).

I'm also continuing to run my 10" boot mounted sub powered by a 300w Hertz amp and all controlled by the Audison DSP.


Im happy I found this thread though as I didn't realise Audiotech Fischer did a MOST adapter and its MUCH cheaper than the Audison option.

[jmciver]

So the more I research and learn about the hardware for this project, the more intrigued the gadget guy in me becomes - even though I have not made my final decision to purchase this amp yet. Based on what I have learned thus far, including reading some other threads and stuff on the web, I had a few more questions for the more experienced who have already chimed in this thread, specifically the crossover set points and characteristics….

The Audiotec DSP software has a demo mode that allows you to play with all of the parameters and save them "off line" without the need to have the amp connected. So I loaded the baseline file for the 10DSP and the BMW F30/F80 HK speaker setup (from the Audiotec site). I then turned off the sub out channel (which would be for a trunk sub that I will not use) and put in some initial crossover settings based on the equipment I intend to use for now (BimmerTech Alpha One speakers, installed; Earthquake 2ohm subs, not purchased yet).

Basic crossover settings I set:
Front/Rear Doors: High Pass at 120Hz
Center/Rear Deck: High Pass at 150Hz
Underseats: Low Pass at 120Hz, High Pass at 35Hz

Slight difference between the doors and center/rear deck and adding a high pass for the underseats I pulled from another thread as it seemed to make sense based on what these speakers will do in this setup. The pics below show the other characteristics for the high/low pass filters. They are screenshots of the actual DSP software tool.

Since the pics uploaded in a random order, the order of the screen grabs is as follows:
Front Door Speakers
All Speaker Channels Overlaid together
Underseats
Rear Deck speakers
Rear Doors

So, additional thoughts on these initial settings based on the speakers I intend to use?

Edit: Pics below are for my initial crossover questions as no equalizing or other tuning parameters have not been touched.

[jedi-knight83]

It will all depend what speakers you run.

At the time, I was using Rainbow front components which were rated for a slightly lower hz so my crossovers were as follows, all on 24dB butterworth

Fronts 140Hz - 20kHz (Drivers +1.25dB / Pass +1.75dB)
Rears 150Hz - 20kHz (both +0.75dB)
Centre 180Hz - 20kHz ( -5.0 dB)
Under Seat 60Hz - 140Hz (both + 2.5dB)
Boot 10" Sub 20Hz - 70Hz (-2.75dB)

Obviously if you aren't running the sub in the boot just run the under seats down to 20Hz.

Each channel was also heavily equalised based on my speakers and also time aligned.

Worth having a look at this thread as a lot of the research and settings will be the same as the 7CH version

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1182351

[jedi-knight83]

Having a quick look into the up10dsp, I actually think just stick with the up7BMW. You can still run it from an optical input but you might need to make or modify your own loom for taking the speaker output and connecting it back to the car. You dont need 10 channels in an F80

[jmciver]

Thanks! I definitely plan to take advantage of the equalizing and time alignment features of the 10DSP. I am just taking "baby steps" as I plan and learn for now …

Regarding the underseats high pass filter freq of 35Hz, I chose that based on the Earthquakes only being able to handle down to 35Hz vs 20Hz (got that from another thread). So are there no concerns with going all the way down to 20Hz (damage or distortion) if I don't have to?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jmciver

Thanks! I definitely plan to take advantage of the equalizing and time alignment features of the 10DSP. I am just taking "baby steps" as I plan and learn for now …

Regarding the underseats high pass filter freq of 35Hz, I chose that based on the Earthquakes only being able to handle down to 35Hz vs 20Hz (got that from another thread). So are there no concerns with going all the way down to 20Hz (damage or distortion) if I don't have to?

Here are the specs on the Earthquake SWS-8Xi

https://www.earthquakesound.com/inde...rs/item/sws8xi

[Billfitz]

The driver specs are only useful if you run them, along with the enclosure specs, through loudspeaker modeling software, which I have done. The Earthquake can take its 150w rated power all the way down to 10Hz without the cone reaching its excursion limit. That's good, because excursion is usually what determines how low you can go without damage or high distortion. Running any driver below where its sensitivity is more than 10dB below average is just wasting power. For the Earthquake that's 25Hz, so you could run it that low. However, music has no useful content below 35Hz, so that's where I'd highpass.

While on the subject, the OEM and most aftermarket woofers don't have the mechanical capacity and/or the frequency response to go below 50Hz.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The driver specs are only useful if you run them, along with the enclosure specs, through loudspeaker modeling software, which I have done. The Earthquake can take its 150w rated power all the way down to 10Hz without the cone reaching its excursion limit. That's good, because excursion is usually what determines how low you can go without damage or high distortion. Running any driver below where its sensitivity is more than 10dB below average is just wasting power. For the Earthquake that's 25Hz, so you could run it that low. However, music has no useful content below 35Hz, so that's where I'd highpass.

While on the subject, the OEM and most aftermarket woofers don't have the mechanical capacity and/or the frequency response to go below 50Hz.

Thanks! I actually got the 35Hz high pass recommendation for the Earthquakes in one of your posts in another thread ….

[devil84]

Originally Posted by jmciver

Thanks johnung ! Especially the part about the under seat subs and the Earthquake recommendation, as I have been scratching my head on a decent underseat sub option. I have upgraded speakers (BimmerTech Alpha One’s, not installed yet), but not the subs. I know that if I were to get the 10DSP, 2 ohm subs are the best choice (based on my research and as you mentioned) vs 8 ohm subs if I keep the HK amp. That is why I have not purchased any subs yet. While I know price does not always equal quality (be it a high or low price), the Earthquake recommendation for use with the 10DSP is even more intriguing given the price point compared to most of the other sub options.

After recently upgrading the speakers in my HK equipped X7 with all Bavsound speakers (and subs), which made a significant improvement overall IMHO (especially combined with the coffin like cabin and a good music source streaming from Tidal), the HK system in the F80 sounds really bland now after 4+ years of ownership. So now I want to play with improving the sound in my F80, but taking a different path than what I did in my X7.

I like the 10DSP option vs the other option you mentioned in order to have a more compact solution with fewer components/amps. I also like the tunability feature of the 10DSP as well since I always like to “tinker” when I can…

I have just installed these Neo 800 underseat subs to replace my HK Woofers (powered by a LC 4.800 amp). Still playing around with the settings but initial impress it definitely has more "punch". you can tell by the size of each woofer. I got a custom 0.75inch spacer made and the fabricator done an excellent job in making it look like stock when fitted.

[devil84]

Originally Posted by jmciver

After doing a bit of research to upgrade the audio in my Harmon Kardon equipped F80 M3 (specifically the amp), I came across multiple threads that discuss the Bavsound Revenant (the old one, not the current Pro version), Bimmer-Tech (the rebranded Audiotec PP 86DSP) and the Match UP 7BMW/UP 7DSP (also by Audiotec). But these PnP amp solutions only work with HiFi equipped cars, not HK - presumably because HK cars have more speaker channels than these amps can support (assuming you want to use all factory HK speaker channels, which I would want to do).

This looks like a great option for HK equipped cars. Serious tempted. I had the Match Up7BMW and that was a great amp.

[jmciver]

So a quick update….

I finally pulled the trigger on the 10DSP, H/K harness and MOST adapter - it should be shipping soon. When all said and done, I may do a DIY thread on the install, but since I am still a bit in "research phase" I will post info, including more research questions, in this thread for now.

So my next question involves the underseat woofers…. I have decided to run a dedicated trunk sub. So since the trunk sub can handle all frequencies below ~80hz, the underseat woofers no longer need to go that low. So, since I intend to band pass the underseat woofers somewhere between 80 hz to 300 hz (ish…), I was wondering if there are any other recommendations for underseat woofers over the Earthquakes that will work well with a trunk sub. Or, should I just keep the stock underseat woofers?

My basic concern with using the stock woofers is their impedance rating. As far as I know, the H/K woofers are rated at 8ohms. The 10DSP can provide 160 watts at 2ohms or 90 watts at 4 ohms to the woofer channels. So going into 8 ohms, I won't have as much output from the underseat woofers….

[Billfitz]

If you're using a trunk sub you don't want to have Earthquakes, because they don't work as well above 60Hz as stock. For that matter most aftermarkets don't either. Don't sweat the 8 ohm impedance of the H-K. That's of some significance if you're not running a trunk sub, but not when you are.

FWIW far too much ado is made about watts. The relationship between power and decibel output isn't linear, it's logarithmic. That means if you want it to sound twice as loud you don't get that by doubling power, you get it by increasing power ten times. Doubling power is just audible. You have to quadruple it to be obvious, and that requires speakers able to handle it, both thermally and mechanically.

[jmciver]

Thanks for the input and I figured that would be the case with the Earthquakes in this scenario with a trunk sub. My intent is to ensure the underseat woofers adequately fill in the frequency range "gap" between the sub in trunk and the mid-ranges/tweeters in the doors, center channel and rear deck. If the stock woofers can do that job well, even with reduced output due to their 8 ohm impedance (compared to other aftermarket woofer options with 2 ohm impedance), I am good with that. I just want it to sound good.

FWIW, looking at the specs of several aftermarket woofers, I have only found 2 that would seem to possibly work well in my application. Both are by Audison: the AP8 (at 4 ohms) and APBMW (at 2 or 4 ohms). The specs of the AP8 look better for my application, but will require more fabrication work to fit in the stock enclosures. The APBMW woofers are essentially plug-n-play, like other aftermarket options for BMW underseat woofers.

[Billfitz]

I've run the specs on the Audisons, for your purposes they're no better than the OEM. They have a bit better low frequency output capability, but that's moot when you've got a sub.