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      06-28-2019, 10:06 PM   #23
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T I was trying to figure out a tipping point of when getting a new car particularly getting out of my x1 would be a justifiable financial decision
Ask this question of 100 people and you'll probably get close to 100 different answers. IMO, the only time it's really a bad idea to get into something else is if you owe more on your current car than it's worth. Rolling old debt into new debt is a bad thing 99.9% of the time. To me, that's where every automotive decision starts. If all is clear there, it would depend on my situation, any potential future situations, and the specific car in question. I could sell my M3 tomorrow because it's paid for. But to get what I'd probably want next, I'd need to throw in some additional money. Well, my wife and I have a fairly recent note on the Jeep and we're looking to get into a nicer house. So, probably not ideal to get rid of the BMW. But if the BMW was a reliability disaster, I'd probably try my best to get into something else, even if it isn't my first choice.

I'm not a lease person myself, but that's because I've tried it and didn't like it. Tradition financing works best for me. If you're a flipper and/or drive very little, leasing could be a very good option. I know a guy who drives 7k miles a year and likes the latest/greatest---leasing is a spectacular option for that person.
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      06-28-2019, 10:43 PM   #24
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Anecdotally, I have always struggled to sell or trade my second hand low mileage car for what they are worth according to the book. This means that I am usually selling or trading under what the residual would be had I leased. By extrapolation that means I lost more money than I would have spent on a lease.
For example selling a 2 year old Audi S4, or my then 2 year old Z3 2.8 I found I could just not get the value I expected selling privately or trading, despite perfect condition, all the service records, extra oil changes etc... maybe I am just a crap negotiator....!!?

That said, despite the evidence, I haven't leased because some part of my brain likes the idea of 'owning' the car, even though for most if it's life, the banks really owns more than you ! Plus I like doing tunes and exhausts and sound system upgrades, so I want to own...
What the difference between going back to stock to sell the car you own vs going back to stock to return a leased car? Either way you rick voiding parts of your warranty, either way you are going back to stock since selling the mods with the car is a sure way to loose more money. "Owning" is overrated. It's merely a title for ego.
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      06-29-2019, 06:25 AM   #25
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the sweet spot is a 1 to 2 year old cpo
drive it 3 to 4 years and sell with 1 to 2 years remaining warranty
I bought my z4 coupe 3.0si cpo when it was 2 years old and had 20000 km for about 30k less than new
I drove it 4 years and put another 30k on it and only lost 16 k in depreciation so about 300 a month to drive that awesome car
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      06-30-2019, 12:31 AM   #26
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What the difference between going back to stock to sell the car you own vs going back to stock to return a leased car? Either way you rick voiding parts of your warranty, either way you are going back to stock since selling the mods with the car is a sure way to loose more money. "Owning" is overrated. It's merely a title for ego.

I think the point of my post was self-deprecating and suggesting that perhaps I felt 'safer' buying but maybe leasing was better. However, not sure I agree with you on your analysis of the role of ego in owning vs leasing.... I think there are very few people who don't have some of their ego wrapped up in what they drive ....leased or owned...

I am not sure if the attached is for real, but it amused me anyway... I started thinking about what you said about ego and so I Googled "what car does the dalai lama drive"


https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vinta...amas-ride.html

Also - I don't take cars back to stock to sell them. I don't see the logic in doing that. Are you saying if you add a new exhaust, for example, you keep the OEM for x years and then reinstall and sell the modded one - seems like a pain the arse to me....! And I don't think modding the car necessarily voids the warranty, and in addition, in general you have greater latitude with a car you own, than one you are leasing for a short time....
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      06-30-2019, 12:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
What the difference between going back to stock to sell the car you own vs going back to stock to return a leased car? Either way you rick voiding parts of your warranty, either way you are going back to stock since selling the mods with the car is a sure way to loose more money. "Owning" is overrated. It's merely a title for ego.

I think the point of my post was self-deprecating and suggesting that perhaps I felt 'safer' buying but maybe leasing was better. However, not sure I agree with you on your analysis of the role of ego in owning vs leasing.... I think there are very few people who don't have some of their ego wrapped up in what they drive ....leased or owned...

I am not sure if the attached is for real, but it amused me anyway... I started thinking about what you said about ego and so I Googled "what car does the dalai lama drive"


https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vinta...amas-ride.html

Also - I don't take cars back to stock to sell them. I don't see the logic in doing that. Are you saying if you add a new exhaust, for example, you keep the OEM for x years and then reinstall and sell the modded one - seems like a pain the arse to me....! I don't believe that modding the car voids your warranty per se, unless it causes issues that can be directly traced back to the mod, and I would say that most people probably feel they have more latititude to make changes to a car they own vs one on a short lease. And as you suggest, if I lease I need to return to stock, which is a PIA whereas selling a modded car that is owned, doesn't require this step... anyway each to his own.

Last edited by Britbimmer; 06-30-2019 at 12:44 AM..
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      06-30-2019, 02:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Britbimmer View Post
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
What the difference between going back to stock to sell the car you own vs going back to stock to return a leased car? Either way you rick voiding parts of your warranty, either way you are going back to stock since selling the mods with the car is a sure way to loose more money. "Owning" is overrated. It's merely a title for ego.

I think the point of my post was self-deprecating and suggesting that perhaps I felt 'safer' buying but maybe leasing was better. However, not sure I agree with you on your analysis of the role of ego in owning vs leasing.... I think there are very few people who don't have some of their ego wrapped up in what they drive ....leased or owned...

I am not sure if the attached is for real, but it amused me anyway... I started thinking about what you said about ego and so I Googled "what car does the dalai lama drive"


https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vinta...amas-ride.html

Also - I don't take cars back to stock to sell them. I don't see the logic in doing that. Are you saying if you add a new exhaust, for example, you keep the OEM for x years and then reinstall and sell the modded one - seems like a pain the arse to me....! I don't believe that modding the car voids your warranty per se, unless it causes issues that can be directly traced back to the mod, and I would say that most people probably feel they have more latititude to make changes to a car they own vs one on a short lease. And as you suggest, if I lease I need to return to stock, which is a PIA whereas selling a modded car that is owned, doesn't require this step... anyway each to his own.
Ego isn't the only reason to own, it's also more economical if you plan on keeping the car for a long period of time. However there are those who don't use the economics as their primary reason to own. They sometimes say they don't want to "rent". Leasing, to them, is for those who "can't afford" the car. Owning is equated to being able to afford the car. It's pride that influences their decision that they don't want to be seen as someone who resorted to leasing because they can't afford it. Thats fine, since the financial advantages to owning are very real. However some of these same people sell their cars after 3-4 years when they have barely entered the period of time where owning actually starts to shift from becoming less advantageous than leasing to becoming more advantageous. In other words, they defeated the whole purpose of owning.

It gets even more complex. Yes, leasing is a way to have a lower monthly payment and there are many that lease to be able to drive a car above their means, but that is the wrong mentality since leasing isn't actually saving them money in the long term. The trade offs of lower exposure, freedom from market volatility, and the ease of getting in and out of a new car every three years can outweighs the advantages of purchasing over leasing... if you can afford it. In essence, leasing (if you are doing it right) isn't actually for people to get into a car they can't really afford, it's a more efficient and advantageous option for those who can afford to get a new car every 3 years.

Consequently, the purchaser who owns a car for 3-4 years may have prevented themselves from considering the leasing option simply because they through it was for poor people.

Ironically, my more wealthy friends lease a new car every 3 years. My less wealthy friends own a car for 6+ years. In both cases, it's what they both can afford to do.

What about going back to stock is a PIA? I just bring it to the shop. Costs a few hundred bucks but you get so much more from selling the parts. I don't know about you, but in most cases a modified car is actually a detriment to any sale. As for you exhaust example, yes that's exactly what I would do. In fact that's exactly what I am doing. I purchased an MPE for my M3 CS. I had it installed for $270 and my stock exhaust is in my garage. It will cost me $270 to have it reinstalled and I can sell my exhaust for probably $3500-$4000. As an installed mod it will probably only add $1k to the value of the car when I sell it in all honestly. Parting out is the way to go.

Your warranty coverage is the same if you lease or own, the only latitude you have is if you want to modify your car drastically as to change what it is ie and engine swap, ethanol, widebody etc. as long as it goes back to stock you can return the leased car.
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      06-30-2019, 09:08 AM   #29
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Ego isn't the only reason to own, it's also more economical if you plan on keeping the car for a long period of time. However there are those who don't use the economics as their primary reason to own. They sometimes say they don't want to "rent". Leasing, to them, is for those who "can't afford" the car. Owning is equated to being able to afford the car. It's pride that influences their decision that they don't want to be seen as someone who resorted to leasing because they can't afford it. Thats fine, since the financial advantages to owning are very real. However some of these same people sell their cars after 3-4 years when they have barely entered the period of time where owning actually starts to shift from becoming less advantageous than leasing to becoming more advantageous. In other words, they defeated the whole purpose of owning.

It gets even more complex. Yes, leasing is a way to have a lower monthly payment and there are many that lease to be able to drive a car above their means, but that is the wrong mentality since leasing isn't actually saving them money in the long term. The trade offs of lower exposure, freedom from market volatility, and the ease of getting in and out of a new car every three years can outweighs the advantages of purchasing over leasing... if you can afford it. In essence, leasing (if you are doing it right) isn't actually for people to get into a car they can't really afford, it's a more efficient and advantageous option for those who can afford to get a new car every 3 years.

Consequently, the purchaser who owns a car for 3-4 years may have prevented themselves from considering the leasing option simply because they through it was for poor people.

Ironically, my more wealthy friends lease a new car every 3 years. My less wealthy friends own a car for 6+ years. In both cases, it's what they both can afford to do.

What about going back to stock is a PIA? I just bring it to the shop. Costs a few hundred bucks but you get so much more from selling the parts. I don't know about you, but in most cases a modified car is actually a detriment to any sale. As for you exhaust example, yes that's exactly what I would do. In fact that's exactly what I am doing. I purchased an MPE for my M3 CS. I had it installed for $270 and my stock exhaust is in my garage. It will cost me $270 to have it reinstalled and I can sell my exhaust for probably $3500-$4000. As an installed mod it will probably only add $1k to the value of the car when I sell it in all honestly. Parting out is the way to go.

Your warranty coverage is the same if you lease or own, the only latitude you have is if you want to modify your car drastically as to change what it is ie and engine swap, ethanol, widebody etc. as long as it goes back to stock you can return the leased car.

I largely agree with your analysis except on what does or doesn't constitute a PIA !! .

But you didn't comment on the really cool car the Dalai Lama drives according to my link (1965 Austin Healy) !!
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      06-30-2019, 10:37 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Britbimmer View Post
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Ego isn't the only reason to own, it's also more economical if you plan on keeping the car for a long period of time. However there are those who don't use the economics as their primary reason to own. They sometimes say they don't want to "rent". Leasing, to them, is for those who "can't afford" the car. Owning is equated to being able to afford the car. It's pride that influences their decision that they don't want to be seen as someone who resorted to leasing because they can't afford it. Thats fine, since the financial advantages to owning are very real. However some of these same people sell their cars after 3-4 years when they have barely entered the period of time where owning actually starts to shift from becoming less advantageous than leasing to becoming more advantageous. In other words, they defeated the whole purpose of owning.

It gets even more complex. Yes, leasing is a way to have a lower monthly payment and there are many that lease to be able to drive a car above their means, but that is the wrong mentality since leasing isn't actually saving them money in the long term. The trade offs of lower exposure, freedom from market volatility, and the ease of getting in and out of a new car every three years can outweighs the advantages of purchasing over leasing... if you can afford it. In essence, leasing (if you are doing it right) isn't actually for people to get into a car they can't really afford, it's a more efficient and advantageous option for those who can afford to get a new car every 3 years.

Consequently, the purchaser who owns a car for 3-4 years may have prevented themselves from considering the leasing option simply because they through it was for poor people.

Ironically, my more wealthy friends lease a new car every 3 years. My less wealthy friends own a car for 6+ years. In both cases, it's what they both can afford to do.

What about going back to stock is a PIA? I just bring it to the shop. Costs a few hundred bucks but you get so much more from selling the parts. I don't know about you, but in most cases a modified car is actually a detriment to any sale. As for you exhaust example, yes that's exactly what I would do. In fact that's exactly what I am doing. I purchased an MPE for my M3 CS. I had it installed for $270 and my stock exhaust is in my garage. It will cost me $270 to have it reinstalled and I can sell my exhaust for probably $3500-$4000. As an installed mod it will probably only add $1k to the value of the car when I sell it in all honestly. Parting out is the way to go.

Your warranty coverage is the same if you lease or own, the only latitude you have is if you want to modify your car drastically as to change what it is ie and engine swap, ethanol, widebody etc. as long as it goes back to stock you can return the leased car.

I largely agree with your analysis except on what does or doesn't constitute a PIA !! .

But you didn't comment on the really cool car the Dalai Lama drives according to my link (1965 Austin Healy) !!
Honestly I don't know what to make of it! Is that real?!

What constitutes a PITA is relative I guess. I put my oem suspension, wing and diffuser into the trunk of my last M3, dropped it off at the shop and got it back 4 hours later and iirc it only cost $400.
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      06-30-2019, 11:40 AM   #31
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Honestly I don't know what to make of it! Is that real?!

What constitutes a PITA is relative I guess. I put my oem suspension, wing and diffuser into the trunk of my last M3, dropped it off at the shop and got it back 4 hours later and iirc it only cost $400.
I know ….. I think it could be real but not sure. Anyway let us agree that we both love cool cars and our differences are fewer than the things on which we can agree..! :-)

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      07-08-2019, 11:19 AM   #32
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While it may not be directly related to the thread, I am enjoying the conversation of lease vs own as an individual that has never leased something before and really doesn’t understand the advantages entirely. In the past, I really haven’t given it much attention because of the mileage restrictions. I also can’t say that I understand what happens when it’s time to return but you’re considering purchasing. What are the drivers for you guys that choose to lease over purchasing? I purchase thinking I’ll hang on to the car, but I generally find myself losing my ass when I realize automotive ADD prevails.
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      07-08-2019, 11:35 AM   #33
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While it may not be directly related to the thread, I am enjoying the conversation of lease vs own as an individual that has never leased something before and really doesn’t understand the advantages entirely. In the past, I really haven’t given it much attention because of the mileage restrictions. I also can’t say that I understand what happens when it’s time to return but you’re considering purchasing. What are the drivers for you guys that choose to lease over purchasing? I purchase thinking I’ll hang on to the car, but I generally find myself losing my ass when I realize automotive ADD prevails.
In most cases, you can get a more expensive car with the same monthly payment. You can also drive newer cars as your lease will be up every few years and you can lease another newer car. In that case, you simply return the car to the dealership (hopefully you haven't gone over your mileage allotment).If you own a business, there are tax advantages to leasing.
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      07-09-2019, 08:00 PM   #34
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Leasing is primarily driven by cash flow considerations. Zero, or close to zero down payment is possible, with lower payments than a loan, for the same vehicle under consideration.

Leasing is the lowest cash flow way to drive in-warranty vehicles with little or no up front capital invested.

Purchasing after leasing is simple. Just communicate your wishes to a salesperson at any dealership of the same brand, and it is an easy process.

Personally I choose not to lease, as my preference is long term (10+ years) and high mileage (200k miles) ownership, with significant work done DIY.
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      07-09-2019, 10:12 PM   #35
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Problem is, buying a new car now won’t solve your problem. Another car is sure to draw your eye in less than two years. If you have lots of money, go for it. If you work for a living, think hard before you do that.

I am in my early 60s and retired. We scrimped all our lives and now have very healthy retirement savings. I decided to treat myself to my first luxury car and now I have a 2019 X5.

I financed for five years, because my investments are doing gangbusters, so it would be foolish to pull out enough to buy the car outright.

The X5 traditionally has been one of the best cars in terms of holding value - something I learned recently and never expected. At five years it should be worth 40-45% of what I paid.

At four years, when the warranty expires, I expect to have less than 40k miles and I plan to trade or sell it. If I don’t pay off the loan early, I should have about $15k in equity on the car after paying off the loan or rolling it into the next car.

My plan is to buy new again and keep the car long term. I will be looking at Lexus, Acura, Lincoln, and other brands that tend to cost less long term. I love my BMW but I’m not sure I want to keep trading to keep a car under warranty forever.

I don’t work on cars. My wonderful local mechanic isn’t going to live (or work) forever, but he has already told me he can’t do a lot on a BMW other than standard maintenance. The BMW dealership is 90 minutes away.

Financially, this car is foolish. I could have bought a very nice luxury SUV for a lot less. And in four years, that might be what I do.

My best advice to someone who has a 2-year-old very nice car is to wait at least two more years, then make a decision. This could get to be a hard habit to break.

They key is to ensure that when you are old you are financially secure. Then buy a car every two years if that is what you want to do.
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      07-31-2019, 07:21 PM   #36
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While it may not be directly related to the thread, I am enjoying the conversation of lease vs own as an individual that has never leased something before and really doesn’t understand the advantages entirely. In the past, I really haven’t given it much attention because of the mileage restrictions. I also can’t say that I understand what happens when it’s time to return but you’re considering purchasing. What are the drivers for you guys that choose to lease over purchasing? I purchase thinking I’ll hang on to the car, but I generally find myself losing my ass when I realize automotive ADD prevails.
If you have automotive ADD like me, you want a new car every 2 years. It's not financially responsible at all to satisfy this obsession, but IF you wanted to, leasing with a high RV is the cheapest way to be this financially irresponsible. Being a business owner helps, as there are some tax advantages.
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