[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by Herr Dreier

That's absolutely how it is. Great isn't it?!

Unbelievable.
I'm starting to think it's been done on purpose to keep us in? I cant believe she would honestly think she could get this through...may be they are playing a long game and Govts come and go and in a few years we have another vote?

[Sasquartch]

Originally Posted by Witney

Interesting. I voted leave so approached this from a different starting point. However, I agree with absolutely everything you say.

Good to see that Mrs May is reuniting the country after all. On the basis that the deal is no good, I would also prefer a no-deal or remain for the reasons you have stated.

Me too

I reckon the whole thing has been a stitch up from the start, maybe all this is just a way to ensure Brexit never happens

I voted leave but if there was another referendum I'd vote to stay, only because it's the easiest and possibly only realistic option. Delivering a Brexit that's acceptable to everyone is impossible and we need to understand that and not waste any more time.

Whilst no deal is attractive in some ways it would just have too much financial impact on the average person

I think this is also the start of the death of the Conservative party. Which is a shame as Labour are worse but just in different ways

Cameron (who I used to really like) has a lot to answer for

[Herr Dreier]

Originally Posted by mikeoz

Unbelievable.
I'm starting to think it's been done on purpose to keep us in? I cant believe she would honestly think she could get this through...may be they are playing a long game and Govts come and go and in a few years we have another vote?

I think the EU have absolutely taken the path that they hope will force us to stay. Some EU ministers have openly said this and some leaders have implied it.

We, on the other hand, have come into this trying to please everyone and tied our hands behind our back with a starting point that leaves no hard border in the island of Ireland.

Had we started from "No deal", we may have had a better position, but he EU knew that May wouldn't go back to that - hence they were able to put more pressure on her.

The EU are still hoping we'll end up remaining, and everything they do will be to try and achieve that outcome. If not, they will keep us as close as possible. Because we've pretty much ruled out "no deal", only the EU can win.

[Herr Dreier]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

McVey gone.

Where do you stand on the "deal"? I know you want Brexit, but you've not really commented on specifics.

[bodtwo]

As discussed so many times, it is an absolute cluster fuck. I voted remain and would be chuffed for my kids if we did remain. But at the same there will end up with a large group of brexiters from all walks of life who are going to be incredibly pissed off and disenfranchised.

How the fuck do politiicians (supposed servants of the people) work on getting those people back to a good place rather than marginalising and radicalising them? And by good place, i don't mean outside the UK!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Herr Dreier

That's absolutely how it is. Great isn't it?!

People in government are saying this "EU veto" scenario will only come to pass in the event of the backstop being used and, as neither the UK nor the EU will want to use that, it's a case of "don't worry, in reality we're very unlikely to end-up in that position".

However, when someone asks "but what if we do?" the silence is deafening.....

[JD6]

Originally Posted by bodtwo

As discussed so many times, it is an absolute cluster fuck. I voted remain and would be chuffed for my kids if we did remain. But at the same there will end up with a large group of brexiters from all walks of life who are going to be incredibly pissed off and disenfranchised.

How the fuck do politiicians (supposed servants of the people) work on getting those people back to a good place rather than marginalising and radicalising them? And by good place, i don't mean outside the UK!

I expect that a fair proportion of Leavers will have realised by now that the pre-referendum promises were pure fantasy, and could not be delivered by this government or any other. If we were to remain, this group would probably come to terms with that.

There will always be a more extreme Brexit-at-any-cost group who would never be satisfied. They'll struggle if we remain, but we can't make everyone happy. They can always bugger off to southern Spain

[Herr Dreier]

Originally Posted by JNW1

People in government are saying this "EU veto" scenario will only come to pass in the event of the backstop being used and, as neither the UK nor the EU will want to use that, it's a case of "don't worry, in reality we're very unlikely to end-up in that position".

However, when someone asks "but what if we do?" the silence is deafening.....

I could see this deal being much more palatable if the backstop were, "no deal/out". That would keep minds focussed and I'm guessing most people could go along with the implementation period, even if extended.

It would keep minds focussed during the future negotiations. The EU would get more from it too, as I hear that the 27 are concerned about the backstop being a backdoor into the single market.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by bodtwo

As discussed so many times, it is an absolute cluster fuck. I voted remain and would be chuffed for my kids if we did remain. But at the same there will end up with a large group of brexiters from all walks of life who are going to be incredibly pissed off and disenfranchised.

How the fuck do politiicians (supposed servants of the people) work on getting those people back to a good place rather than marginalising and radicalising them? And by good place, i don't mean outside the UK!

There is something to weigh up about the value to the country's future prosperity of the remainers and the leavers. Having which group pissed off will have the most impact.

Of course, like everything else, that should have been weighed up before the vote.

[DB118D]

So lets assume that May goes

What happens then?

Anyone coming in at her back is faced with exactly the same issues, and god forbid it forces a GE that opens the door for Comrade Corbyn

[Harryg]

There is something seriously wrong with government Ms May has her cabinet so these are the ones she wants in she then heads off to these meetings with the EU making deals concessions etc only to come back and try to sell these to her own cabinet, surely she must speak with these people first instead of trying to get their backing when she comes back. Taking 5 hours trying to get her cabinet on board what chance does she stand when it goes to the house, very little possibly.

The government is full of back stabbers waiting in the wings for their chance of fame and many have failed in their attempts no doubt more will fall on the sword before this little lot is done.


As for Corbyn getting in he will ply his trade using Brexit to the full but people should not forget he back tracked on student loans so they should see and know what he is capable of it would be a close contest and as I have said before I think Ms may will probably get her way as the CONservatives are too worried about their jobs to go against her But I hope I am wrong.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JD6

I expect that a fair proportion of Leavers will have realised by now that the pre-referendum promises were pure fantasy, and could not be delivered by this government or any other. If we were to remain, this group would probably come to terms with that.

There will always be a more extreme Brexit-at-any-cost group who would never be satisfied. They'll struggle if we remain, but we can't make everyone happy. They can always bugger off to southern Spain

The single working open leaver that I know has opined this morning that he wanted three things from Brexit and this deal gives none of them. We had two of the things he wanted before the Brexit vote anyway.

I haven't spoken to the retiree knitting circle yet to find out their views. I guess picking up the daily mail would help me on that.

Note - Personal experience of leavers may differ, I can only speak as I find.

[Witney]

May "or we can risk a no BREXIT at all." Interesting caveat.

[Watsey]

Deplorable behaviour from some members of the Cabinet. Take Raab for example - if he felt that he couldn't support the draft text then he should stand up and make his position known. Forcefully. Fight for further amendments; make it clear that he does not support the proposed deal. Speak to the press about his concerns. Stay in the Cabinet to ensure that the deal is halted and taken back to the negotiating table.

What does he do in reality ? Let the Cabinet meeting conclude, 'sleep on it' to make it sound convincing, then resign not only his Cabinet position but also any further accountability. Career politician mentality and behaviour. Spineless.

A unicorn deal was never going to be a reality but, from the news coverage that I've watched and the excerpts from the draft deal that I've read, it seems clear that the UK would be locked into a Customs Union which it would not be permitted to leave unless the EU gave it's consent. Worse legal terms than the UK's pre-referendum rights. No wonder that Barnier was suddenly full of praise for the efforts and outcomes.

Utterly shambolic.

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by JNW1

People in government are saying this "EU veto" scenario will only come to pass in the event of the backstop being used and, as neither the UK nor the EU will want to use that, it's a case of "don't worry, in reality we're very unlikely to end-up in that position".

However, when someone asks "but what if we do?" the silence is deafening.....

I'd imagine a similar conversation was had when deciding on a referendum

"But what if the people actually vote to leave ?"
"Don't worry, that won't happen......"

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

McVey gone.

Good, couldn't stand the scouse git.

Back to the massive elephant in the room, there is no majority for Brexit in the HoC simple fact is they will not vote for any deal.

[JNW1]

Theresa May getting a very rough ride in the House of Commons at the moment; I almost feel sorry for her but it seems very clear there's little chance of this deal being accepted by a majority of MP's.....

[Wills2]

I think she's handling it well, looks as comfortable as I've ever seen her which whilst not saying much is surprising.

[1 AKY]

The irony and sadness of this whole shenanigans is that none of the politicians, nor the electorate knew exactly what Brexit meant, either in theory or practice. Yet we still went to the polls. So much for democracy.

(as I don my flamesuit)

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by 1 AKY

The irony and sadness of this whole shenanigans is that none of the politicians, nor the electorate knew exactly what Brexit meant, either in theory or practice. Yet we still went to the polls. So much for democracy.

(as I don my flamesuit)

Yep. I was talking to someone last week who is heavily involved in Brexit for the Food Standards Agency. She said it was a complete cluster f**k, with no idea how to handle food imports if we leave with no deal. And of course nobody would have given this sort of thing a second thought when voting.

She did say to take note of things she stopped eating on the 30th March.....

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I think she's handling it well, looks as comfortable as I've ever seen her which whilst not saying much is surprising.

I agree she's playing a good straight bat in the circumstances but her deal feels dead in the water to me; thus far hardly anyone has spoken in support of her position...

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by 1 AKY

The irony and sadness of this whole shenanigans is that none of the politicians, nor the electorate knew exactly what Brexit meant, either in theory or practice. Yet we still went to the polls. So much for democracy.

(as I don my flamesuit)

TBH not many people (a tiny amount) read the manifestos before voting in a GE either and successive governments generally tear them up as soon as they get into office, the referendum was a massive mistake and the country will suffer as a result.

In terms of democracy the last time a government in the UK won a majority of the popular vote in a GE (gained more than 50%) was back in 1931, so since then every government in power hasn't had the backing of the majority of the voting public, ergo the democracy you talk of doesn't really exist.

But we're a parliamentary democracy whereby parliament is sovereign and governs the country, the referendum wasn't binding and was advisory they do not have to act upon it (and as can be seen they aren't whilst trying to look like they are) they are there to govern in the interests of the country and it's about time they did.