[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by Bryans69

Finally watched the carwow video of this. Thought it looked OK, although still not convinced about the back / roofline. However, I was less impressed with read seat and boot space, especially given the size of the car.

Looks like the IONIQ is more practical, although not a fan of the interior

I agree about the roofline and the space in the rear relative to the sheer size of the thing. The Ioniq is more practical in that respect, and though I quite like the Tonka Toy/Integrale looks, like you I'm not a huge fan of the interior. The other thing I don't really like is the plastic panels on the side - it stands out too much against the darker colours that I like IMO

I guess it comes down to how often you (a) have more than 2 people in the car and (b) how frequently you need/use the load-carrying abilities of something like the X3.

[Blacktemplar]

Thought this was a quite interesting comparison - Hyundai (in theory) has the biggest boot space.

This guy has some good reviews of the Ioniq 5

[AyrshireColin]

Off the bat - I don't mean to be 'that guy'.

There's obviously a few threads and a fair bit of chat about EV's on the forum currently. Within that there's plenty of chat about pricing - since when were the prices of Hyundai's and Kia quoted as reference point for BMW's and vice versa?

I fully get the conversations about the tech. and about the range etc. but the product you are buying is not comparable. I know that I'm leaving myself open to comments about badge snobbery but it is a BMW forum so I'm happy enough to do so!

On the EV-6 specifically it's a conversation about a £50k+ Kia and that seems to viewed as some kind of good buy.

The debates about cars and 'they all get you from A to B' are ancient but the argument is normally made by the Focus driver who doesn't drive a car from a 'premium' brand/manufacturer. Clearly I'm either utterly confused/out of touch or there has been a massive landscape shift in the car market.

[AyrshireColin]

Ps. by 'that guy' I mean the pretentious twat!

[Nibbles]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Off the bat - I don't mean to be 'that guy'.

There's obviously a few threads and a fair bit of chat about EV's on the forum currently. Within that there's plenty of chat about pricing - since when were the prices of Hyundai's and Kia quoted as reference point for BMW's and vice versa?

I fully get the conversations about the tech. and about the range etc. but the product you are buying is not comparable. I know that I'm leaving myself open to comments about badge snobbery but it is a BMW forum so I'm happy enough to do so!

On the EV-6 specifically it's a conversation about a £50k+ Kia and that seems to viewed as some kind of good buy.

The debates about cars and 'they all get you from A to B' are ancient but the argument is normally made by the Focus driver who doesn't drive a car from a 'premium' brand/manufacturer. Clearly I'm either utterly confused/out of touch or there has been a massive landscape shift in the car market.

I think BMW stopped being as much of a premium brand when it started discounting heavily to shift volume and using cheaper plastics and using paint with the finish of orange peel and believing that was acceptable. It stopped being about drivers cars when they bloated the size of the entire ranges and then released the 2 series active tourer. I think other brands such as Kia have upped their game to compete (with the lower end of the German manufacturers cars not the 7 series etc). I'm looking forward to sitting in an EV6 and taking one for a drive before I make the final decision if it's worth the money they are charging for it rather than just thinking it's expensive for a Kia.

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Off the bat - I don't mean to be 'that guy'.

There's obviously a few threads and a fair bit of chat about EV's on the forum currently. Within that there's plenty of chat about pricing - since when were the prices of Hyundai's and Kia quoted as reference point for BMW's and vice versa?

I fully get the conversations about the tech. and about the range etc. but the product you are buying is not comparable. I know that I'm leaving myself open to comments about badge snobbery but it is a BMW forum so I'm happy enough to do so!

On the EV-6 specifically it's a conversation about a £50k+ Kia and that seems to viewed as some kind of good buy.

The debates about cars and 'they all get you from A to B' are ancient but the argument is normally made by the Focus driver who doesn't drive a car from a 'premium' brand/manufacturer. Clearly I'm either utterly confused/out of touch or there has been a massive landscape shift in the car market.

I think there has been a shift in the market

1) Not sure BMW / Merc / Audi are as premium as they used to be. Probably the most common cars you'll see in a car park now-adays

2) Korean build quality has come on leaps and bounds

3) BMW / Merc / Audi still seem to be on the back foot regarding EVs. Take the IX3. Is it really worth £15k more than the IONIQ? Whilst I'm not convinced about the interior / exterior design of the Korean offerings, they at least appear to be taking a clean page approach, rather than just sticking electric motors on an existing car.

For the higher end performance, such as the 40i engines, S/RS, AMG etc the Germans still have an offering and place the others don't really have, but once you get to the every day cars and engines that most people buy, that edge is definitely diminishing, in my opinion

[Blacktemplar]

I was talking to the guy from Kia last night, and he was very clear that they see a gap in the market for almost a 'premiumised' sub-brand that will compete with the established players more directly. He likened it to the approach the Japanese mass-producers have taken with the likes of Infiniti, Lexus etc, but focused on pure EV offerings based around the E-GMP platform.

I think they sense a gap in the market at that £40-60K price point, and while it didn't work too well with the Stinger, a pure EV offering that can out-Tesla the big 3 German manufacturers might just work well for them.

I still think the EV market has a bit of a mountain to climb, particularly on the relationship between price, desirability & badge.

We live in a reasonably affluent middle-class suburb, with plenty of fairly expensive cars on driveways so price 'shouldn't' be an issue per se. But there are almost no EV's in evidence anywhere. You see a few Teslas, the odd i3 and a few Japanese hybrids, but on a wander around the area you could count the number of wall chargers on one hand.

It may be that people mostly use work/public chargers, but there's not much evidence of take up of EV's on any significant scale so far.

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by Blacktemplar

I was talking to the guy from Kia last night, and he was very clear that they see a gap in the market for almost a 'premiumised' sub-brand that will compete with the established players more directly. He likened it to the approach the Japanese mass-producers have taken with the likes of Infiniti, Lexus etc, but focused on pure EV offerings based around the E-GMP platform.

I think they sense a gap in the market at that £40-60K price point, and while it didn't work too well with the Stinger, a pure EV offering that can out-Tesla the big 3 German manufacturers might just work well for them.

I still think the EV market has a bit of a mountain to climb, particularly on the relationship between price, desirability & badge.

We live in a reasonably affluent middle-class suburb, with plenty of fairly expensive cars on driveways so price 'shouldn't' be an issue per se. But there are almost no EV's in evidence anywhere. You see a few Teslas, the odd i3 and a few Japanese hybrids, but on a wander around the area you could count the number of wall chargers on one hand.

It may be that people mostly use work/public chargers, but there's not much evidence of take up of EV's on any significant scale so far.

There's no gap. The 'premium' brand for Kia/Hyundai is called 'Genesis': https://www.genesis.com/uk

The Genesis version of the Ioniq 5/EV6 is on the way.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

I think BMW stopped being as much of a premium brand when it started discounting heavily to shift volume and using cheaper plastics and using paint with the finish of orange peel and believing that was acceptable. It stopped being about drivers cars when they bloated the size of the entire ranges and then released the 2 series active tourer. I think other brands such as Kia have upped their game to compete (with the lower end of the German manufacturers cars not the 7 series etc). I'm looking forward to sitting in an EV6 and taking one for a drive before I make the final decision if it's worth the money they are charging for it rather than just thinking it's expensive for a Kia.

There are two points to BMW/Audi/Merc being less premium than they used to be.

One is that they are everywhere, very common.

That one wouldn't matter, though, if they still stood for quality in the way that they used to, and they simply don't. My F36 stepped down significantly in some materials versus my E90 and the LCI made it worse. The G05 X5 has some buttons and materials that are out of place at the price point. I could detail the same issues in any one of the brands, certainly in their circa 50k and less motors.

More important than all of that is that the Koreans have come on an absolute storm improving perceived qualities and materials.

Furthermore, the argument about great six cylinder engines is gone unless discussing a 40i or 45e, in which case yes there is no Korean/Japanese equivalent in our market. But in fours, hybrids and EVs, different story.

Going purely on my own judgements, I bought a Discovery largely because I felt the interior to be far better than the X5 or X7. But recently drove a Toyota Highlander and came away convinced that the Discovery is worth nowhere near the premium charged. You'd all rush to agree with me on that sentence, but I'd extend it equally to The X5/7 and throw into the mix that the Sorento and Santa Fe also have closed that 'premium' gap. Most of the premium allure is pure badge snobbery.

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Most of the premium allure is pure badge snobbery.

Nailed it 100% but by the same token backed up my point.

The exact same argument could be put forward when talking about watches, phones, TV's….practically anything.

Perhaps a silly example but I was having a conversation with a guy who reports to me the other day and he was saying something about his neighbour, the words that came out of his mouth were 'the boy has just got a cracking looking big BMW' - sub in Kia for BMW and that's not getting said.

It is total badge snobbery but in many senses that's the 'premium' that you're paying for as much the goods.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Off the bat - I don't mean to be 'that guy'.

There's obviously a few threads and a fair bit of chat about EV's on the forum currently. Within that there's plenty of chat about pricing - since when were the prices of Hyundai's and Kia quoted as reference point for BMW's and vice versa?

I fully get the conversations about the tech. and about the range etc. but the product you are buying is not comparable. I know that I'm leaving myself open to comments about badge snobbery but it is a BMW forum so I'm happy enough to do so!

On the EV-6 specifically it's a conversation about a £50k+ Kia and that seems to viewed as some kind of good buy.

The debates about cars and 'they all get you from A to B' are ancient but the argument is normally made by the Focus driver who doesn't drive a car from a 'premium' brand/manufacturer. Clearly I'm either utterly confused/out of touch or there has been a massive landscape shift in the car market.

I've had my F31 for 7 years, and the KIA Sorrento has been with us for 5.

Here's a list of items that have been replaced (warranty or otherwise) and items on the current/critical list :

BMW :

2 x front adaptive dampers
2 x front control arms
Rear window rubbers
Air conditioning condenser
Air conditioning valves / control unit
2 x steering rack
Turbo (oil seals - the turbo is currently off the car for a full rebuild)
ZF transmission - clutches slipping; will soon be removed for a complete rebuild

KIA :

1 x Xenon headlamp


You're right, these products are not comparable.

Remind me, which one is the premium offering ?

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Watsey

I've had my F31 for 7 years, and the KIA Sorrento has been with us for 5.

Here's a list of items that have been replaced (warranty or otherwise) and items on the current/critical list :

BMW :

2 x front adaptive dampers
2 x front control arms
Rear window rubbers
Air conditioning condenser
Air conditioning valves / control unit
2 x steering rack
Turbo (oil seals - the turbo is currently off the car for a full rebuild)
ZF transmission - clutches slipping; will soon be removed for a complete rebuild

KIA :

1 x Xenon headlamp


You're right, these products are not comparable.

Remind me, which one is the premium offering ?

In Munich, they still laugh about the day that they contracted in some Land Rover lads to bolt together a 3-series

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by Watsey

I've had my F31 for 7 years, and the KIA Sorrento has been with us for 5.

Here's a list of items that have been replaced (warranty or otherwise) and items on the current/critical list :

BMW :

2 x front adaptive dampers
2 x front control arms
Rear window rubbers
Air conditioning condenser
Air conditioning valves / control unit
2 x steering rack
Turbo (oil seals - the turbo is currently off the car for a full rebuild)
ZF transmission - clutches slipping; will soon be removed for a complete rebuild

KIA :

1 x Xenon headlamp


You're right, these products are not comparable.

Remind me, which one is the premium offering ?

Current : F31 330sD, DMS remap, XHPflashtune, Ohlins Road & Track, Millway Motorsports top mounts, SuperPro poly bushes, Quaife LSD, Stoptech Trophy front BBK / MSport rear discs and calipers, Pagid RSL1 pads all round, Eibach ARBs, Michelin P4S.

Where's the mods on the Sorrento? Or does that just potter about as the family bus? Point taken fully but hardly an apples for apples comparison.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Current : F31 330sD, DMS remap, XHPflashtune, Ohlins Road & Track, Millway Motorsports top mounts, SuperPro poly bushes, Quaife LSD, Stoptech Trophy front BBK / MSport rear discs and calipers, Pagid RSL1 pads all round, Eibach ARBs, Michelin P4S.

Where's the mods on the Sorrento? Or does that just potter about as the family bus? Point taken fully but hardly an apples for apples comparison.

My mods do not affect the steering rack, front dampers (I hadn't started modding the car when these were replaced), control arms (ditto), air conditioning, or window rubbers.

None of the failures relate to the braking system, because it's aftermarket.

During my ownership the car has never been launched. It's running a remap, but gets driven with a good degree of mechanical sympathy and gets a lot of additional servicing : intermediate oil and filter changes every 7K miles (plus an oil additive); the transmission fluid and filter have been replaced twice. In overall terms the BMW does a far higher proportion of motorway miles.

The Sorrento just gets an annual service and when we go on holiday it takes all of us (family of 5), is typically loaded to the roof (in the boot), has a full roof box, five bikes on the towbar-mounted carrier, and pulls a 6x4' cargo trailer with all the camping equipment.

The Sorrento has done half the mileage thus far (50K versus 100K for the 330d) but just takes it all in its stride.

You can argue that the BMW is the premium product, but in my experience it really isn't.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

In Munich, they still laugh about the day that they contracted in some Land Rover lads to bolt together a 3-series

Names and addresses please. I'll send my 'lads' round for some payback

[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

There's no gap. The 'premium' brand for Kia/Hyundai is called 'Genesis': https://www.genesis.com/uk

The Genesis version of the Ioniq 5/EV6 is on the way.

Ah yes - I'd forgotten about Genesis. A fugly brand designed for the US...

I was meaning 'gap' more in the sense of the price point and type of vehicle on offer.

[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

That one wouldn't matter, though, if they still stood for quality in the way that they used to, and they simply don't. My F36 stepped down significantly in some materials versus my E90 and the LCI made it worse. The G05 X5 has some buttons and materials that are out of place at the price point. I could detail the same issues in any one of the brands, certainly in their circa 50k and less motors.


Most of the premium allure is pure badge snobbery.

Can't disagree with any of that.

My F31 330i had plenty of niggles, none of them critical but enough to slightly 'sour' the supposed premium experience. Expectation over reality to a degree, not helped by the fact that the design was ageing at that point and the A6 I had previously was beautifully built, and never missed a beat in 7 years of ownership.

While much of the G01 X3 M40i interior is a major step forward from the F31, and accepting that in an SUV there's a certain degree of utility required in terms of construction materials, it still doesn't feel like a near-£60K car. One of my mates has an S6 and the interior fit & finish is light years ahead of my X3. Another has an E-class estate, which I think looks more upmarket, even if the build quality isn't quite as good as the equivalent Audi (his view, not mine)

To an extent, I'm happy to pay a premium for a tremendous 6cyl ICE which is becoming a dying breed. That was the attraction (slighly) more than the badge-snobbery of owning a car with a blue & white propeller badge.

The days of BMW's being the exclusive province of the well-to-do are long gone, and I applaud the fact that manufacturers like Kia & Hyundai are trying to simultaneously push up into the premium space in terms of look/feel/quality, with a very credible and competitive EV offering that seems to elude the established manufacturers to a degree.

[KCH1984]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

There are two points to BMW/Audi/Merc being less premium than they used to be.

One is that they are everywhere, very common.

That one wouldn't matter, though, if they still stood for quality in the way that they used to, and they simply don't. My F36 stepped down significantly in some materials versus my E90 and the LCI made it worse. The G05 X5 has some buttons and materials that are out of place at the price point. I could detail the same issues in any one of the brands, certainly in their circa 50k and less motors.

More important than all of that is that the Koreans have come on an absolute storm improving perceived qualities and materials.

Furthermore, the argument about great six cylinder engines is gone unless discussing a 40i or 45e, in which case yes there is no Korean/Japanese equivalent in our market. But in fours, hybrids and EVs, different story.

Going purely on my own judgements, I bought a Discovery largely because I felt the interior to be far better than the X5 or X7. But recently drove a Toyota Highlander and came away convinced that the Discovery is worth nowhere near the premium charged. You'd all rush to agree with me on that sentence, but I'd extend it equally to The X5/7 and throw into the mix that the Sorento and Santa Fe also have closed that 'premium' gap. Most of the premium allure is pure badge snobbery.

I'm going to bite...

Having just stepped into a new G05 I'd argue there's nothing in the class (premium or otherwise), certainly that I've tried, that matches it in terms of overall blend of dynamics and quality, and most of the mainstream reviewers would seem to agree if you look at any of the group tests. Looks are subjective of course and I will concede there are a couple of hard plastics I don't like and it still doesn't have that 'special' feel inside that you get from certain JLR products like your own.

'Worth' is also subjective, but having sat in a friends new Kia Sorento '4' I'm sorry but it's just not in the same league. It's got lots of tech and standard equipment on offer for the money, but it just feels cheap in comparison. That said, it's £40k not £80k (before discount) and I get for many people the equivalent X5 (ignoring engine choices as I agree with your point above) just won't be 'worth' that additional outlay. Certainly for him, driving dynamics and performance are well down the priority list and for family transport with the need for 7 seats, I can still see why you'd pick the Kia. I just don't agree that premium allure is all about the badge, the X5 is a far nicer place to sit as I'm sure the Disco is.

I do think the gap has closed and at a certain price point the Korean's seem to be ahead (I say this as someone who's just placed an order on an e-Niro), but as you move up the list price I do think people still value the intangible qualities the Germans seem able to deliver. You just have to look at sales figures of the Stinger to see that there's still work to be done when looking to pinch sales at the "premium" end of the market.

[MashinBenzin]

Good thoughts, happy for the bite as I wasn't fishing

"Worth" Yes, definitely subjective , for me I think it's the level of price difference and that's also partly driven by me liking high spec and therefore inflating the list price of a BMW. It's sort of, "I think a £60k car really should have xyz that I like" and I've then turned it into a £75k car. The same as a top spec Disco. At that point you're 50% up on the list price of a Highlander/Sorento.

That's when I start to question the value given the materials gap that exists today (rather than ten years ago). For instance the leather in the Highlander is probably nicer than Dakota/the new basic BMW leather/LR grained leather but not Merino/LR Windsor quality. Other bits and pieces are either on a par or slightly down, but switchgear is excellent. Then the Toyota hybrid drivetrain actually feels premium versus the diesels and it all starts to add up to a good proposition. I wouldn't question that the 45e is better still, but at a significant price.

The Sorento I'm judging on pictures as I haven't sat in one, but it did appear an awful lot of car for the money.

My specifics that grated on me in the X5 (and I fully acknowledge that it's specific to my own tastes) are the silver climate control buttons, the standard iDrive controller and buttons (both my F36 and E90 felt nicer to the hand) and the door tops being too hard (something that only LR have ever got right imho).

Reliability does count for a lot, and it's unquestionable that you'd have to be extremely unlucky to encounter hassle in a Toyota or Kia, but I do appear to have a Discovery that's largely willing to do as instructed and I didn't have bad luck with my BMWs either. Infotainment foibles in both, but nothing serious.

Do I think the Highlander is equal to a Discovery? No. Is the Discovery worth, say, £25k more over a few years? That's a major hmmm moment, where I would say that maybe £5k for the better car and £20k for the better badge and looks (yes, seriously ) and the very very very nice dealership experience.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Off the bat - I don't mean to be 'that guy'.

There's obviously a few threads and a fair bit of chat about EV's on the forum currently. Within that there's plenty of chat about pricing - since when were the prices of Hyundai's and Kia quoted as reference point for BMW's and vice versa?

I fully get the conversations about the tech. and about the range etc. but the product you are buying is not comparable. I know that I'm leaving myself open to comments about badge snobbery but it is a BMW forum so I'm happy enough to do so!

On the EV-6 specifically it's a conversation about a £50k+ Kia and that seems to viewed as some kind of good buy.

The debates about cars and 'they all get you from A to B' are ancient but the argument is normally made by the Focus driver who doesn't drive a car from a 'premium' brand/manufacturer. Clearly I'm either utterly confused/out of touch or there has been a massive landscape shift in the car market.

I would offer again the fatal flaw too of any non Tesla EV here and now in 2021. You cannot travel past you home charging infrastructure otherwise:-

- Welcome to the randomness of the charger network nightmare. Be prepared to 1000 Apps and accounts and for them potentially to not be online when you get there

- Some network pricing is getting spicy. 69p kWh would be getting near Diesel levels of full up cost per mile. Hmmm then we're all thinking what's the point

Totally agree many other EVs look better and just aren't connected with Elon! However the supercharges make the car really.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by saltyamigo

Appreciate what you're saying, but if the quality is as good as Blacktemplar says and I was spending my own cash I would rather have the pictured EV6 and £7K in my pocket before a base iX3 any day, but we're all different.

They are not exactly comparable cars but it's the closest BMW offers. The base iX3 is £60K, the base EV6 is £40K, the base EV6 is not that far down on power on the iX3 and will do 0-60 quicker, warranty is longer and even the base spec is pretty good so there's still a £20K premium to pay for BMW's higher quality product. You would really need to go through the spec of both to see how much that £20K is justified. Will be interesting to see how the used car market values each of them in 3-4 years.

BMW is still a good premium quality brand, but I feel not as much so as in the past. I remember when my old man bought his first new BMW back in the day when the salesmen would laugh if you mentioned discount. It was a 5 series and you could tell instantly the build and materials were much better than any of the mainstream cars he had bought before and it felt a bit special. At that time the cheapest BMW was the 3 series and there was little to no discounts so there were relatively few BMW's on the road, now they are one of the most common in our area.

Are you butikf cash though or leasing.

iX3 was about 480 at one point recently with a modest deposit. The usual residual value of 'brands' kick in on many deals and was a reason the Stinger couldn't cut it. Could have a 340i for less / same when it 'costs' more

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Are you butikf cash though or leasing.

iX3 was about 480 at one point recently with a modest deposit. The usual residual value of 'brands' kick in on many deals and was a reason the Stinger couldn't cut it. Could have a 340i for less / same when it 'costs' more

Perhaps also interest rates and discounts. 4.9% rates do harm a PCP monthly. Think my 440i was 3.9% or 2.9% a few months before the Stinger launched. Residual wasn't stellar at something like £21k, but a discount from £50k to £38k put it probably level on transaction price with a Stinger GT when they launched.