[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

I watched the dramatisation and the follow up program interviewing some of the former Sub postmasters, both my wife and I were deeply moved by the programmes. For me the fact that Jess Kaur lost her memories of childhood due to the ECT given during hospitalisation, itself brought on by the depression and suicide attempts during the run up to her Court case, was probably the most upsetting for me.

I have signed the petition for Vennels to be stripped of her honour, given for 'services to the Post Office'.

However, I would agree with former Sub postmaster Noel Thomas who was sentenced to nine months in prison and stated he would rather see the people responsible be hit in the pocket. This should be significant given the extent of the wealth generated during Vennels tenure in the Post Office, and if this isn't possible Prison should be the outcome.

Regarding the above mentioned Jess Kaur .... she was on ITV breakfast TV live this morning and said the Post Office actually sent their own doctors to the hospital while she was there so she could be examined by them. Outrageous!

[Sasquartch]

The petition is over 1.1M now
Keeps returning an error when I try and sign - hopefully the website is better than Horizon
but I'll try again later

The whole thing was a disgrace, how Paula Vennels can have any credibility as a priest is beyond me.

A couple of things puzzled me, why was the Post Office solely in focus ? Surely it was a combination of Fujitsu (who probably hid things from their customer, ie the PO) AND the PO who were (or should have been) accountable
Also endless references to remote access and whether it was or wasnt possible, surely the Fujitsu staff were making the changes centrally - so no remote access was needed

[bishbosh]

Both Mrs and myself have signed.

Before my current job I worked for 19 years for a third party vendor to Unisys in the field of IT Security. We supplied security/reporting software which assisted financial institutions/gov agencies with compliance and auditing requirements.

I find it incomprehensible how such a flawed system as Horizon could pass auditing checks, the massive hole of allowing seemingly unlogged remote access by Fujitsu. But then again we've seen the PO acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner to the poor SPMs. It reeks of PO management arrogance and trying to save face when they knew all along the issues with the software.

[JD6]

Something I hadn’t realised (until Ian Hislop just said it) was that the CBE was awarded to Vennells in 2019, which I find absolutely staggering. That was the year the class action by 550 SPMs succeeded which clearly implicated Vennells.

I had just assumed that the CBE was much earlier when the miscarriage of justice was less clear. WTF were they thinking?

[bishbosh]

Originally Posted by JD6

Something I hadn’t realised (until Ian Hislop just said it) was that the CBE was awarded to Vennells in 2019, which I find absolutely staggering. That was the year the class action by 550 SPMs succeeded which clearly implicated Vennells.

I had just assumed that the CBE was much earlier when the miscarriage of justice was less clear. WTF were they thinking?

The terms 'reward for failure' and 'fail upwards' spring to mind.
And no one in these positions of power ever seems to be held accountable.

[Watsey]

I’ve just watched Episides 3 & 4 - very moving towards the end.

The vindictiveness of PO senior management, and the organisation as a whole, is absolutely staggering. Hopefully the government, harangued by the legal system and a Public enquiry, will make substantial changes to the PO charter in terms of its governance and authority.

Fujitsu also has serious legal questions to answer.

Alan Bates is a legend. Bravo that man.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by bishbosh

The terms 'reward for failure' and 'fail upwards' spring to mind.
And no one in these positions of power ever seems to be held accountable.

It's digressing slightly but it never ceases to amaze me how people in senior roles with large firms can make a complete mess of things, lose their job (often with a nice pay-off to sweeten the blow) but then get hired by another company in an equally senior role. It's almost like once you get to a certain level you become Teflon coated and no matter how bad you are nothing sticks!

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by JNW1

It's digressing slightly but it never ceases to amaze me how people in senior roles with large firms can make a complete mess of things, lose their job (often with a nice pay-off to sweeten the blow) but then get hired by another company in an equally senior role. It's almost like once you get to a certain level you become Teflon coated and no matter how bad you are nothing sticks!

Part of that of course is that, unlike the govt, CEOs sometimes have to fall on their sword (with a big pay off) for something that they probably had no control over and little knowledge of, like a fraud in a subsid in south america or something. That doesnt make them a bad CEO. And of course experience, good and bad, makes you a better manager.

Not in this case obviously!

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by JNW1

It's digressing slightly but it never ceases to amaze me how people in senior roles with large firms can make a complete mess of things, lose their job (often with a nice pay-off to sweeten the blow) but then get hired by another company in an equally senior role. It's almost like once you get to a certain level you become Teflon coated and no matter how bad you are nothing sticks!

Unfortunately they all do the rounds. The large industry needs to get rid of them, and its quicker to "let them go" without any bad press or skeletons with a payout.

They then walk into another senior role as there is no history, procedures, discipline or gross misconduct against them on any checks, as it would appear they left there previous senior role on there own accord.

[SkyJawa]

Breaking News. She’s broken her silence and said she will hand back her CBE. Too flipping right.

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

Breaking News. She’s broken her silence and said she will hand back her CBE. Too flipping right.

Probably on her own accord and has absolutely nothing to do with the petition that is at 1.2 million and counting!!

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

Breaking News. She’s broken her silence and said she will hand back her CBE. Too flipping right.

Just saw that on the news

Now we need to see the next phase => pursuing those that lied (or knowingly instigated unsafe prosecutions) as part of the Post Office's persecution of Sub-Postmasters, and making sure they get their commupance.

Edit - Vennells says that she's sorry for "the devastation...as a result of the Horizon system". Call me cynical, but it comes across as a very carefully-worded statement (via a global PR agency) and it's conspicuous that she doesn't make any reference to the actions of Post Office personnel in the decisions whether (or not) to prosecute Sub-Postmasters. The Horizon system didn't trigger the prosecutions process, PO senior management made those choices.

[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

Probably on her own accord and has absolutely nothing to do with the petition that is at 1.2 million and counting!!

Sorry, just doesn't cut the mustard for me. Handing it back "voluntarily" doesn't annul it as an honour, only the monarch can do that. It should have been publicly stripped from her. Another teflon-shouldered wet apology to go with it.

I very much doubt anyone at the PO or indeed Fujitsu will ever be held fully accountable or even prosecuted or fined. Now PV has handed back the CBE the media will move on to the next drama and the public will largely lose interest.

Sadly the real villains of the piece will once again get away scot-free.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Part of that of course is that, unlike the govt, CEOs sometimes have to fall on their sword (with a big pay off) for something that they probably had no control over and little knowledge of, like a fraud in a subsid in south america or something. That doesnt make them a bad CEO. And of course experience, good and bad, makes you a better manager.

Not in this case obviously!

I'm sure what you describe is sometimes the case but equally CEO's get the push as a result of championing a strategy or changes which they've instigated and which have failed. It's when people like that manage to come up smelling of roses in another lucrative role that I shake my head in disbelief!

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I'm sure what you describe is sometimes the case but equally CEO's get the push as a result of championing a strategy or changes which they've instigated and which have failed. It's when people like that manage to come up smelling of roses in another lucrative role that I shake my head in disbelief!

oh yeah, I was ignoring them, much like I do when I work for them

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Blacktemplar

Sorry, just doesn't cut the mustard for me. Handing it back "voluntarily" doesn't annul it as an honour, only the monarch can do that. It should have been publicly stripped from her. Another teflon-shouldered wet apology to go with it.

I very much doubt anyone at the PO or indeed Fujitsu will ever be held fully accountable or even prosecuted or fined. Now PV has handed back the CBE the media will move on to the next drama and the public will largely lose interest.

Sadly the real villains of the piece will once again get away scot-free.

Yes, I read that too and was thinking the same thing. She's handed it back but she still needs to be stripped of it. Saying she handed it back 'as John Lennon did' misses the point that he did it as a protest, she has done it because it's been protested against. Not the same thing at all, and of course until it's annulled she still gets to keep all the benefits. The equivalent of crocodile tears. She's an odious witch and needs to be serving jail time for her part in this, the number of lost years through her intentional callous actions are something that needs punished as a warning to other leaders in senior roles that they cannot get away with trying to bury things like this.

[JD6]

Interesting to see Ed Davey’s role in this scandal is a little more than was first apparent. In addition to being the Postal Affairs Minister 2010-2012, he was subsequently hired as an adviser by The City law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, who were at the same time working for the Post Office to defend the class action. Davey was apparently paid £275,000 by HSF for advice.

It isn’t clear what this advice was and whether it related to this scandal, but it doesn’t look great…

[bishbosh]

Ed Davey, who is very quick to ask others to fall on their sword, but not when it's his turn!

[Blacktemplar]

One of the things that absolutely staggered me in all of this was the scale of the claw-back from the £58M settlement figure by the legal team funders and court costs. The claimants received just £12M between 555 individuals, less than £22K for ruined lives and bankruptcy in many cases.

The subsequent Historical Shortfall Scheme to which those affected but not convicted could apply for compensation wasn't available to those who had convictions, and it was only in 2022 the Government agreed to fund legal fees for compensation claims outwith the HSS.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/po...114522.article

As many have alluded to in the above article the £900 cap on legal fees isn't enough to buy a lawyer's lunch, let alone conduct a robust appeal process through the courts. You'd almost think it was designed to discourage claims.....

I read somewhere that this scandal has so far cost the Government (ie us, the taxpayer) up to £1 Billion on legal/court costs & compensation. Could've been avoided if Vennels, the PO board and Fujitsu had come clean at the time.

As always, when there's blood in the water, the sharks start circling.

[Eddamoo]

Originally Posted by bishbosh

I find it incomprehensible how such a flawed system as Horizon could pass auditing checks, the massive hole of allowing seemingly unlogged remote access by Fujitsu. But then again we've seen the PO acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner to the poor SPMs. It reeks of PO management arrogance and trying to save face when they knew all along the issues with the software.

I certainly can. I have climbed through the Software Engineering industry since 2006 and worked on many national and internationally deployed software systems. Before GDPR existed, it was pretty much 'anything goes'. Even since then, its a largely self audited industry - many companies don't take it remotely seriously enough. ISO 9001, 27001, GDPR etc doesn't get close to solving the IT/Software issues that brought about these root-cause problems.

Comments around "no one except the postmaster can alter their data" made me laugh out loud. Not only could dozens of their developers and support engineers have read/write access to production data, they could inevitably do it with 'direct access' (i.e. not through the front-end application), meaning data was not audited or tracked. Worse still, software engineers would have been able to manually write to the Ledger, Audit and Log data too. There is always 'someone' who needs full access - especially when the system is large, new and bug-laden.

I've seen similar access levels for Healthcare (NHS) and other industries of similar criticality. Looking back, its frankly scary and wholly reliant on the good-nature of the engineers themselves. To create a perfect storm - this elevated access is often performed in a high-pressure environment such as solving an incident under an SLA.

For the uninformed, this is a primary use case for BlockChain like technologies, where the ledger is made transparent and immutable.

[KRS_SN]

People in the front line get hit due to system failures.. healthcare.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...cidal-thoughts

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/manj...equest-1950704

[Somebloke]

There were innocent victims other than subpostmasters, like this PO worker on a office terminal who was convicted of fraud and sent to Holloway Prison when she was just 19 years old: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h44pm3