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      11-11-2019, 11:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by hubbahubba View Post
How does this even remotely answer my question? If I wanted more stats, they are readily available.... Thanks. For nothing.

Why won't the DNC put up somebody that appeals to more than the 10% on the far left? Hello?
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      11-11-2019, 11:13 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Biden is demonstrably center. Same for Gabbard. Buttigieg, too, for the most part.

Those candidates all have issues, but being "center" isn't one of them.
Didn't Biden move to free [fill in the blank]? Honest question as I won't bother to watch the debates or very much news anymore.
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      11-11-2019, 12:17 PM   #25
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Fine, I'll bite. I would vote for Andrew Yang, and here's why:

1) On his website, he has over 170 policy proposals. He's willing to be challenged on his platform, and not on some vague political promises. Will they all come to pass if he becomes President? Of course not. But it does reflect that he's trying to be as transparent as possible; no other candidate has done the same.

2) On that note, he has been on many Conservative talk shows and podcasts (Fox News, Ben Shapiro, etc.) to talk about his policy proposals. You can find them all on YouTube. Do they all agree with them? No, of course not. But all of them came away impressed with his ability to support his arguments with logic and evidence. All the conversations have been civil and intellectual. I guarantee that there is not a single other Democratic candidate that would do the same, because they would be ridiculed off the stage. [Edit: He also has hosted a lengthy live streaming interviews (including one which lasted 10 hours) where he answered all sorts of viewer questions. Did he perfectly answer all of them? No, but he's willing to explain the logical reasoning behind each of his proposals. I guarantee no other candidate would even subject themselves to this kind of examination]

3) Of course I have to address his foundational platform of Universal Basic Income, so here's my thoughts: I think there's close to 99% chance that UBI would NOT passed if he became President, as it's too radical of an idea and too radical to implement in 4 years. Furthermore, I myself am not fully convinced that it is practical and implementable. However, what Yang's position on UBI does indicate is his willingness to take non-traditional approaches to solving problems, and he's willing to do so if there are logical arguments for them (of course, there are legitimate arguments against UBI as well). I would say that Trump had plenty of highly questionable policies during his campaign ("lock her up", Mexico paying for the wall), as well as plenty of policies that turned out to be completely false, all of which would not have survived any serious logical examination. And yet, he got elected. But unlike Trump, and every other candidate, Yang is willing to be challenged intellectually on his positions (see above).

[note: it is also interesting that even though he polls well below the other heavy-hitting Democratic candidates (Warren, Sanders, Biden), his ideas alone have materially changed the course of discussion among the DNC -- there's now a lot more and more discussions regarding automation and UBI than ever before, and that's all thanks to Yang. Also, Buttigieg has pretty much copied Yang's platform.]

4) He is the most honest and intellectually-capable candidate in the field -- both Democrats and Republicans -- and it's not even close. Even if he ends up getting only a handful of his proposals passed as Presdient, I think the vast majority of the country would be proud to have him as President, which counts for something. I think he would absolutely destroy any other candidate on a one-on-one debate (so far the Democratic debates have been 8-10 candidates, which gives no opportunity to really engage in a real debate).

5) He is one of two Democratic candidates that the polls say that at least 10% of Republicans would vote for. He is also the only candidate that I believe Trump implicitly fears. He's non-establishment and comes from a business background just like Trump, and Trump has said that this is the only type of candidate that he would be concerned about from the Democratic party.

6) Finally, and most importantly, he refuses to talk about Trump. He would rather talk about the problems that caused Trump to be elected, and then try to solve those problems. But he believes, and I agree, that the more the Democrats talk about Trump, the better chance he gets re-elected. Does he believe that Trump should be impeached? Yes, because of Trump's abuse of power. But he doesn't talk about it (unless specifically asked), and instead uses it as an opportunity to veer the conversation away from Trump to the problems plaguing the country.

Last edited by schoy; 11-11-2019 at 12:24 PM..
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      11-11-2019, 02:48 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by hubbahubba View Post
I see all the Trump bashing from the left, and that is fine, whatever. You don't like him, and you want him replaced. Again, whatever...

Why don't the Dems put up a candidate that has any ideas that are grounded in reality? Seriously, for a libertarian leaning independent like me, whatcha got? If you want him out so bad, why don't you put up ANYBODY that isn't a flippin commie???? If you truly wanted to win, wouldn't you want to put up a candidate that appeals to more than the fringe? Yer gonna make me, and millions others, vote for Trump AGAIN because that bunch is just plain nuts. Get your poop in a group DNC.

Help me understand, would ya?
Because most politicians are out of touch and the pendulum swings both ways. The one thing I predicted right during the Obama administration it's that we would swing hard to the right come next election, or at least get very close to it. Be prepared for the pendulum to swing the other way, although I'm not sure who will actually be in office.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

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      11-11-2019, 03:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SoCalS2k View Post
So build the wall, is that an idea grounded in reality?
Why isn't it? I have no idea why anybody would think that a wall would not help? We have a problem with people coming in through non ports of entry, a wall would 99% help to guard those areas that are not official ports of entry. Seriously, I just look around my house and wonder what my lifestyle would be like WITHOUT a wall. No more leaving the back door open for the dogue, among other things..
In any case, and especially for you who thinks all Pubs are crazy, who do you like? Give bashing Trump and Pubs a break for a hot second and please tell us who you think should be the Dem nominee, and why. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
people constantly go through identity crisis. its cool now to care about the world and whatever; you can get ridiculed or called selfish for only caring about your family and yours.

i don't know where i stand honestly. For example how do you tax jeff bezos more. most of his income is amazon stock; so do we cripple amazon to pay for peoples healthcare so they can abuse it. people love amazon. why would bezos busted his ass to make it scaleable if he wasn't going to the top man. I am still in utter shock how amazon has scaled this delivery model and competes has walmart changing their prices. that takes a work ethic that i can't even conceptualize. but hey just got lucky so lets take his money right. everyone wants a piece of the pie but don't want to work.

i've seen the quailty of healthcare decrease significantly because now everyone gotta get it. doctors nickle and dimeing you because they don't get paid. Their office staff (or medical group now abuses the system bills a bunch of unnecessary stuff) and the people with little co-pays or whatever just keep using and using it cause hey its only 5 bucks. I can barely keep up with insurance reimbursements and different plans; so imagine what these 60+ yr olds go through when its PART d selection time. they are all out to get your money, and rather you die. its sad but very true. insurance companies penalized if they don't provide affordable options; hmmm lets lower access to our paying subscribers to make sure everyone gets a nice slice.

^just one example of how helping everyone out makes the working man suffer. I get we should take some of the burden; but the extremism is so off the charts. How can the government pay for college. how would colleges stay accredited; why would they even care, it would become like public school system where they juke stats to get more funding. the government just aint going to cut a check for 150k to you to do whatever. everyone without college education what do they get? use it or lose it? we need plumbers; garbage men etc

idk; I hate debating with people who are too far left; i just get insulted, about how i don't care, or just put me on a guilt trip. The thing is i do really care, but people don't care to get to know your side anymore or the human element. just a bunch of cherry picked information to validate their points. i can say the same about the right. im somewhere lost in the middle I guess, and god help me if i think freely
Thank you. This is a very hard thought out answer, and I appreciate the time you took to write it. To sum up your answer, I am going to say to you the very last thing my father in law said to me before he passed away 10 years ago. I had thanked him for all the help through the years, his response I hold dear to my heart today. "Sometimes it is hard to know HOW to help somebody." I agree with you 100%, and I think you and I are are far from alone in the middle!


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Biden is demonstrably center. Same for Gabbard. Buttigieg, too, for the most part.

Those candidates all have issues, but being "center" isn't one of them.
Too much of the big "S" for me for any of those that you mention, which puts them too far left for me to pull the lever in the general. Of those, I think Pete has the best shot in the general, but I don't think he will reach the big dance.
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      11-11-2019, 03:43 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Fine, I'll bite. I would vote for Andrew Yang, and here's why:

1) On his website, he has over 170 policy proposals. He's willing to be challenged on his platform, and not on some vague political promises. Will they all come to pass if he becomes President? Of course not. But it does reflect that he's trying to be as transparent as possible; no other candidate has done the same.

2) On that note, he has been on many Conservative talk shows and podcasts (Fox News, Ben Shapiro, etc.) to talk about his policy proposals. You can find them all on YouTube. Do they all agree with them? No, of course not. But all of them came away impressed with his ability to support his arguments with logic and evidence. All the conversations have been civil and intellectual. I guarantee that there is not a single other Democratic candidate that would do the same, because they would be ridiculed off the stage. [Edit: He also has hosted a lengthy live streaming interviews (including one which lasted 10 hours) where he answered all sorts of viewer questions. Did he perfectly answer all of them? No, but he's willing to explain the logical reasoning behind each of his proposals. I guarantee no other candidate would even subject themselves to this kind of examination]

3) Of course I have to address his foundational platform of Universal Basic Income, so here's my thoughts: I think there's close to 99% chance that UBI would NOT passed if he became President, as it's too radical of an idea and too radical to implement in 4 years. Furthermore, I myself am not fully convinced that it is practical and implementable. However, what Yang's position on UBI does indicate is his willingness to take non-traditional approaches to solving problems, and he's willing to do so if there are logical arguments for them (of course, there are legitimate arguments against UBI as well). I would say that Trump had plenty of highly questionable policies during his campaign ("lock her up", Mexico paying for the wall), as well as plenty of policies that turned out to be completely false, all of which would not have survived any serious logical examination. And yet, he got elected. But unlike Trump, and every other candidate, Yang is willing to be challenged intellectually on his positions (see above).

[note: it is also interesting that even though he polls well below the other heavy-hitting Democratic candidates (Warren, Sanders, Biden), his ideas alone have materially changed the course of discussion among the DNC -- there's now a lot more and more discussions regarding automation and UBI than ever before, and that's all thanks to Yang. Also, Buttigieg has pretty much copied Yang's platform.]

4) He is the most honest and intellectually-capable candidate in the field -- both Democrats and Republicans -- and it's not even close. Even if he ends up getting only a handful of his proposals passed as Presdient, I think the vast majority of the country would be proud to have him as President, which counts for something. I think he would absolutely destroy any other candidate on a one-on-one debate (so far the Democratic debates have been 8-10 candidates, which gives no opportunity to really engage in a real debate).

5) He is one of two Democratic candidates that the polls say that at least 10% of Republicans would vote for. He is also the only candidate that I believe Trump implicitly fears. He's non-establishment and comes from a business background just like Trump, and Trump has said that this is the only type of candidate that he would be concerned about from the Democratic party.

6) Finally, and most importantly, he refuses to talk about Trump. He would rather talk about the problems that caused Trump to be elected, and then try to solve those problems. But he believes, and I agree, that the more the Democrats talk about Trump, the better chance he gets re-elected. Does he believe that Trump should be impeached? Yes, because of Trump's abuse of power. But he doesn't talk about it (unless specifically asked), and instead uses it as an opportunity to veer the conversation away from Trump to the problems plaguing the country.
Great answer, thank you. UBI scares the crap outta me. It goes against every fiber of my being as wrong. Self induced inflation at it's very worst. Here in Az, we have another minimum wage increase in January. Guess what prices are doing in my store? I posted a quote in the UBI thread by Adrian Rogers which speaks directly to this, and it ain't good. Other than that, Yang is not offensive, seems like a nice enough guy, and would be somebody that as a person I would be proud to have as president. But not enough to get over UBI...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because most politicians are out of touch and the pendulum swings both ways. The one thing I predicted right during the Obama administration it's that we would swing hard to the right come next election, or at least get very close to it. Be prepared for the pendulum to swing the other way, although I'm not sure who will actually be in office.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

When Batman put on the cowl and cape, the Joker put on his smile and makeup.
Great analogy!

So who do they put up that can sway the moderate Pubs and independent's? Or do they even want to put somebody up like that?
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      11-11-2019, 04:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubbahubba View Post
Great answer, thank you. UBI scares the crap outta me. It goes against every fiber of my being as wrong. Self induced inflation at it's very worst. Here in Az, we have another minimum wage increase in January. Guess what prices are doing in my store? I posted a quote in the UBI thread by Adrian Rogers which speaks directly to this, and it ain't good. Other than that, Yang is not offensive, seems like a nice enough guy, and would be somebody that as a person I would be proud to have as president. But not enough to get over UBI...
And that is a perfectly fair and reasonable position to take. For me, the biggest lack in political leadership today in this country is rationality and humility, and Yang ticks off both boxes.

[Note: I'm not going to get into a discussion on the pros and cons of UBI as it's a different thread, and Yang himself can speak better than I could ever do as to his reasons for promoting UBI -- as well as addressing the myriad of fears about UBI -- in the plethora of videos out there.]
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      11-11-2019, 04:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
And that is a perfectly fair and reasonable position to take. For me, the biggest lack in political leadership today in this country is rationality and humility, and Yang ticks off both boxes.

[Note: I'm not going to get into a discussion on the pros and cons of UBI as it's a different thread, and Yang himself can speak better than I could ever do as to his reasons for promoting UBI -- as well as addressing the myriad of fears about UBI -- in the plethora of videos out there.]
Thanks, schoy, and your reasons for supporting him are also fair and reasonable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a president that has those qualities!

As for UBI, yes, there is another thread on it, but please feel free to put out what you feel is most pertinent as it pertains to Yang. Totally on topic as far as I am concerned. I will tell you, though, that from my perspective it is most likely a non starter. Maybe he has a view on it that I have not considered, though? Please fire away!
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      11-11-2019, 05:58 PM   #31
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How someone could justify voting for Trump in any shape or form is boggling to me and I'm just 5% left of center. The guy is terrible. Simple as that in my book. I wish him nothing but absolutely the worst. His day of reckoning is coming and I'm not talking about impeachment (Senate won't do it). He doesn't care about you or me other than to fleece us.

As for the Democrats putting up a poor group of candidates, I agree. While I don't buy in to the notion that they are all candidates far left leaning, the reality is people at this point in time are either:

1) Voting by their bank accounts and paychecks.

2) Are very religious and will vote for the candidate that "embraces" their values and will look past everything else.

3) Are extremists diehards (both sides) that feel wronged by government, immigration, etc.

This country lacks a critical thinking voting public. You have to know how to compromise and do things for the collective good.

Last edited by XutvJet; 11-11-2019 at 06:08 PM..
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      11-11-2019, 06:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
How someone could justify voting for Trump in any shape or form is boggling to me and I'm just 5% left of center. The guy is terrible. Simple as that in my book. I wish him nothing but absolutely the worst. His day of reckoning is coming and I'm not talking about impeachment (Senate won't do it). He doesn't care about you or me other than to fleece us.

As for the Democrats putting up a poor group of candidates, I agree. While I don't buy in to the notion that they are all candidates far left leaning, the reality is people at this point in time are either:

1) Voting by their bank accounts and paychecks.

2) Are very religious and will vote for the candidate that "embraces" their values and will look past everything else.

3) Are extremists diehards (both sides) that feel wronged by government, immigration, etc.

This country lacks a critical voting public. You have to know how to compromise and do things for the collective good.
Thank you for the response. I really didn't want to turn this into a bash Trump thread, there are enough of those already. That said, I'm curious, how is he trying to fleece us? My .02 on that is, there may have never been a bigger narcissist in the oval office than we have right now. His ego is as big as the Earth, and a million times as fragile. In my life, and when dealing with people such as him, I have found that the one thing that really gets under their skin is failure. I 100% believe that Trump has a huge fear of failure, and will do whatever it takes to leave behind a legacy of good things he has done to help every citizen. (Granted, some will be just in his mind...) That does not jive in my mind with somebody that is trying to fleece me. I think the last thing he wants is for people to be unappreciative of his time in office, or feel like he is fleecing us. His ego, if nothing else, is keeping us "un-fleeced". Make sense?

Totally agree with you on compromise. That has been out the window for some time now, unfortunately.
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      11-11-2019, 06:57 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
How someone could justify voting for Trump in any shape or form is boggling to me and I'm just 5% left of center. The guy is terrible. Simple as that in my book. I wish him nothing but absolutely the worst. His day of reckoning is coming and I'm not talking about impeachment (Senate won't do it). He doesn't care about you or me other than to fleece us.

As for the Democrats putting up a poor group of candidates, I agree. While I don't buy in to the notion that they are all candidates far left leaning, the reality is people at this point in time are either:

1) Voting by their bank accounts and paychecks.

2) Are very religious and will vote for the candidate that "embraces" their values and will look past everything else.

3) Are extremists diehards (both sides) that feel wronged by government, immigration, etc.

This country lacks a critical thinking voting public. You have to know how to compromise and do things for the collective good.
4) Only vote based on the letter next to a candidates name (both sides).
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      11-11-2019, 07:56 PM   #34
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I think politics has become America’s new blood sport. We put flags on the hips of professional football players over the past few seasons, and need something like it to put my team against yours. MMA just doesn’t do it, but politics works.

Unfortunately that isn’t the same as governing.
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      11-11-2019, 08:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
I think politics has become Americaís new blood sport. We put flags on the hips of professional football players over the past few seasons, and need something like it to put my team against yours. MMA just doesnít do it, but politics works.

Unfortunately that isnít the same as governing.
Spot on. So how do we get it back? Governing, AND full contact NFL?
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      11-11-2019, 08:54 PM   #36
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I think politics has become America’s new blood sport.
It's been going on in other countries. I have seen fights broken out on the floor of Korean Parliament house (or whatever they call there). It's probably worse in Europe. AOC girl fight anyone?

Eventually we'll probably be like Europe. We just got a late start. Unfortunately GM will still be GM lols.
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      11-12-2019, 01:44 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by hubbahubba View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Fine, I'll bite. I would vote for Andrew Yang, and here's why:

1) On his website, he has over 170 policy proposals. He's willing to be challenged on his platform, and not on some vague political promises. Will they all come to pass if he becomes President? Of course not. But it does reflect that he's trying to be as transparent as possible; no other candidate has done the same.

2) On that note, he has been on many Conservative talk shows and podcasts (Fox News, Ben Shapiro, etc.) to talk about his policy proposals. You can find them all on YouTube. Do they all agree with them? No, of course not. But all of them came away impressed with his ability to support his arguments with logic and evidence. All the conversations have been civil and intellectual. I guarantee that there is not a single other Democratic candidate that would do the same, because they would be ridiculed off the stage. [Edit: He also has hosted a lengthy live streaming interviews (including one which lasted 10 hours) where he answered all sorts of viewer questions. Did he perfectly answer all of them? No, but he's willing to explain the logical reasoning behind each of his proposals. I guarantee no other candidate would even subject themselves to this kind of examination]

3) Of course I have to address his foundational platform of Universal Basic Income, so here's my thoughts: I think there's close to 99% chance that UBI would NOT passed if he became President, as it's too radical of an idea and too radical to implement in 4 years. Furthermore, I myself am not fully convinced that it is practical and implementable. However, what Yang's position on UBI does indicate is his willingness to take non-traditional approaches to solving problems, and he's willing to do so if there are logical arguments for them (of course, there are legitimate arguments against UBI as well). I would say that Trump had plenty of highly questionable policies during his campaign ("lock her up", Mexico paying for the wall), as well as plenty of policies that turned out to be completely false, all of which would not have survived any serious logical examination. And yet, he got elected. But unlike Trump, and every other candidate, Yang is willing to be challenged intellectually on his positions (see above).

[note: it is also interesting that even though he polls well below the other heavy-hitting Democratic candidates (Warren, Sanders, Biden), his ideas alone have materially changed the course of discussion among the DNC -- there's now a lot more and more discussions regarding automation and UBI than ever before, and that's all thanks to Yang. Also, Buttigieg has pretty much copied Yang's platform.]

4) He is the most honest and intellectually-capable candidate in the field -- both Democrats and Republicans -- and it's not even close. Even if he ends up getting only a handful of his proposals passed as Presdient, I think the vast majority of the country would be proud to have him as President, which counts for something. I think he would absolutely destroy any other candidate on a one-on-one debate (so far the Democratic debates have been 8-10 candidates, which gives no opportunity to really engage in a real debate).

5) He is one of two Democratic candidates that the polls say that at least 10% of Republicans would vote for. He is also the only candidate that I believe Trump implicitly fears. He's non-establishment and comes from a business background just like Trump, and Trump has said that this is the only type of candidate that he would be concerned about from the Democratic party.

6) Finally, and most importantly, he refuses to talk about Trump. He would rather talk about the problems that caused Trump to be elected, and then try to solve those problems. But he believes, and I agree, that the more the Democrats talk about Trump, the better chance he gets re-elected. Does he believe that Trump should be impeached? Yes, because of Trump's abuse of power. But he doesn't talk about it (unless specifically asked), and instead uses it as an opportunity to veer the conversation away from Trump to the problems plaguing the country.
Great answer, thank you. UBI scares the crap outta me. It goes against every fiber of my being as wrong. Self induced inflation at it's very worst. Here in Az, we have another minimum wage increase in January. Guess what prices are doing in my store? I posted a quote in the UBI thread by Adrian Rogers which speaks directly to this, and it ain't good. Other than that, Yang is not offensive, seems like a nice enough guy, and would be somebody that as a person I would be proud to have as president. But not enough to get over UBI...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because most politicians are out of touch and the pendulum swings both ways. The one thing I predicted right during the Obama administration it's that we would swing hard to the right come next election, or at least get very close to it. Be prepared for the pendulum to swing the other way, although I'm not sure who will actually be in office.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

When Batman put on the cowl and cape, the Joker put on his smile and makeup.
Great analogy!

So who do they put up that can sway the moderate Pubs and independent's? Or do they even want to put somebody up like that?
A moderate doesn't stand a chance. Moderates are in the unique position to get both sides angry at them at the same time. As a moderate myself, it's slightly frustrating.
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      11-12-2019, 04:15 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
AOC girl fight anyone?
I would actually hook up my cable box again to see a pay-per-view of AOC versus Kellyanne Conway fighting in a cage!!!!!
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      11-12-2019, 02:32 PM   #39
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A moderate doesn't stand a chance. Moderates are in the unique position to get both sides angry at them at the same time. As a moderate myself, it's slightly frustrating.
I feel your frustration, hence my post. It's the squeeky wheel approach on both sides, but the 80% of us in the middle continue to let the loudest and those most on the fringe roll on. Just plain stupid of all of us.
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      11-13-2019, 03:06 PM   #40
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Pete will take the nomination. The others are all too _____ fill in the blank.

If Pete is too far left for you to pull the trigger then nobody with a D next to their name would get your vote so who cares.

The question is who will he get for his VP pick? Klobuchar? Somebody older with more foreign policy experience? I don't see a boomer getting the nod from the left this go around.
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      11-13-2019, 03:17 PM   #41
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Pete's too young and inexperienced. I don't see him getting the nom by any avenue.
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      11-13-2019, 03:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
I would actually hook up my cable box again to see a pay-per-view of AOC versus Kellyanne Conway fighting in a cage!!!!!
Make it AOC versus Ann "Cold Shot" Coulter. I'll bring some chips and quac.
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minn195973.50

      11-13-2019, 04:24 PM   #43
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What else do you call somebody that would rather vote in DONALD TRUMP just so that a Democrat isn't the POTUS? I'd say that's remarkably unintelligent, vindictive and pathetic.
See how stupid that sounds? And yet honestly, it's still a more truthful statement than yours was, because more people are going to do the above in 2020 than did the opposite in 2016...

There are many very intelligent people on both the left and right. The problem is the more social media takes over our daily lives, the more "normal" the fringe elements become.

We are in a period now where the fringe on each side is the only real voice, because the actual intelligent people have given up playing referee.
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      11-13-2019, 04:56 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Pete's too young and inexperienced. I don't see him getting the nom by any avenue.
The same was said about Obama before Iowa.
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