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      11-21-2021, 07:21 PM   #89
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Nice work guys!
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      11-23-2021, 11:51 AM   #90
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I'd be careful running that much Ethanol. At one point you're HPFP is targeting 2900 psi and you're only getting 900 psi.
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      11-23-2021, 11:54 AM   #91
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If be careful running that much Ethanol. At one point you're HPFP is targeting 2900 psi and you're only getting 900 psi.
Thanks. Opened a case with PTF and they are working on it now. Doesn't make sense because fuel pumps were upgraded to a Dorch Stage2 and a Precision Raceworks Stage2.5V2
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      11-23-2021, 11:59 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
If be careful running that much Ethanol. At one point you're HPFP is targeting 2900 psi and you're only getting 900 psi.
Thanks. Opened a case with PTF and they are working on it now. Doesn't make sense because fuel pumps were upgraded to a Dorch Stage2 and a Precision Raceworks Stage2.5V2
Could be tuning strategy or that's all the pump is mechanically capable of. Will be interesting to hear what the response is.
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      11-23-2021, 12:05 PM   #93
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Could be tuning strategy or that's all the pump is mechanically capable of. Will be interesting to hear what the response is.
I do think its possible he has reached the limit of the DS2 but they quote it as being capable of supporting full E85 up to 500whp and hes quite a bit below that with stock turbo.
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      11-23-2021, 12:08 PM   #94
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If be careful running that much Ethanol. At one point you're HPFP is targeting 2900 psi and you're only getting 900 psi.
Thanks. Opened a case with PTF and they are working on it now. Doesn't make sense because fuel pumps were upgraded to a Dorch Stage2 and a Precision Raceworks Stage2.5V2
Could be tuning strategy or that's all the pump is mechanically capable of. Will be interesting to hear what the response is.
Dorch2 HPFP is rated to 500whp with full E85 and Precision Raceworks Stage2.5V2 LPFP is rated to 600whp with full E85. And the Zeitronix CANBus ethanol sensor is the one recommended in the Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap tune. I'm running the stock N55 EWG turbo so I shouldn't be exceeding those whp numbers.

So it shouldn't be the hardware, but we'll see.
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      11-23-2021, 12:23 PM   #95
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I honestly think it's a combination of both factors. I'll explain my theory a little later when I have time to write it out lol
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      11-23-2021, 12:46 PM   #96
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when using pump gas base tune, i notice that positive STFT is needed to add fuel to meet target AFR.

in the event that the car runs in open loop, you'd be looking at a situation where you will run lean.

do you have any multi-gear logs to see the open/closed loop behavior during gear shifts.
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      11-23-2021, 01:03 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by designatedposter View Post
when using pump gas base tune, i notice that positive STFT is needed to add fuel to meet target AFR.

in the event that the car runs in open loop, you'd be looking at a situation where you will run lean.

do you have any multi-gear logs to see the open/closed loop behavior during gear shifts.
Yes I do. Here are two 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ tune with E78 in tank. XHP was installed. The fuel crash may be at the end of one of them.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e830139

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e83013d

Here are some earlier 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 in the tank. No xHP but I was running Bootmod3 automatic transmission tune. I installed xHP after earlier logs showed that I was hitting a torque maximum. xHP eliminated the issue.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...729b69de5fb411

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8f0
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      11-23-2021, 02:05 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Yes I do. Here are two 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ tune with E78 in tank. XHP was installed. The fuel crash may be at the end of one of them.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e830139

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e83013d

Here are some earlier 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 in the tank. No xHP but I was running Bootmod3 automatic transmission tune. I installed xHP after earlier logs showed that I was hitting a torque maximum. xHP eliminated the issue.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...729b69de5fb411

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8f0
focusing on the stage 2+ maps multi gear- doesn't look like you have a fuel issue, but that's probably because you stay in high RPM where the pump can meet demand for fuel.

focusing on just the pump gas tune, looks like you go into closed loop really quick after a gear shift - benefits of the auto transmission i suppose. you only get to 10% positive STFT too, which is less than the previous single gear logs where you went up to 30%, but that makes sense since you are running less boost in this batch.
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      11-23-2021, 02:25 PM   #99
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Ok, so here is my theory.

Your HPFP pressure drops significantly down to 900-1100 PSI right in the RPM area of peak torque ~2800-3000 RPM, at the same time you're having throttle closures (I'm assuming because of the overboosting 22+psi -- above 20.6 target). So I know the HPFP is driven by the vacuum pump, and right now I'm not sure how they work together, but I'm assuming that is a factor here because as the RPMs climb you don't have any more throttle closures (you're right at or below boost target) and the HPFP pressure begins to stabilize as it starts climbing to meet target soon after the dip. The stock turbo usually makes max hp in the neighborhood of 5100-5500 RPM, and by that time you're HPFP is meeting target.

So no, I don't think you're maxing out the HPFP because of the HP, but it is maxing out because of the tuning strategy and partly because of it not being able to keep mechanically with the torque demand down low.
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      11-23-2021, 02:30 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designatedposter View Post
focusing on the stage 2+ maps multi gear- doesn't look like you have a fuel issue, but that's probably because you stay in high RPM where the pump can meet demand for fuel.

focusing on just the pump gas tune, looks like you go into closed loop really quick after a gear shift - benefits of the auto transmission i suppose. you only get to 10% positive STFT too, which is less than the previous single gear logs where you went up to 30%, but that makes sense since you are running less boost in this batch.
The fuel trims being pegged at 1.3 is a problem and to me suggests an issue with the stage 2 multimap tune not correctly adjusting the fueling for the higher ethanol content. It seems to be isolated to the stage 2 multimap since the fuel trims are more as you would expect on the stage 2+ multimap. But in any case they are literally maxed at +30% and that should not be happening in any situation regardless of single gear pull or not. I dont think there is lambda target in there but its possible it was even running lean since fuel trims were maxed.
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      11-23-2021, 02:34 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
Ok, so here is my theory.

Your HPFP pressure drops significantly down to 900-1100 PSI right in the RPM area of peak torque ~2800-3000 RPM, at the same time you're having throttle closures (I'm assuming because of the overboosting 22+psi -- above 20.6 target). So I know the HPFP is driven by the vacuum pump, and right now I'm not sure how they work together, but I'm assuming that is a factor here because as the RPMs climb you don't have any more throttle closures (you're right at or below boost target) and the HPFP pressure begins to stabilize as it starts climbing to meet target soon after the dip. The stock turbo usually makes max hp in the neighborhood of 5100-5500 RPM, and by that time you're HPFP is meeting target.

So no, I don't think you're maxing out the HPFP because of the HP, but it is maxing out because of the tuning strategy and partly because of it not being able to keep mechanically with the torque demand down low.
If by "tuning strategy" you just mean that they are targeting (and allowing for target to be exceeded) high boost in the low RPM range then yeah i suppose you can call it that, but its not really a "problem" with the tuning strategy, the "problem" appears to be that there isnt enough fuel supply to meet the demand. In other words, the tune shouldnt need to be adjusted to meet the limits of the HPFP. If the HPFP is rated for 500HP on E85 it should meet those demands regardless of whether you make the HP at 3000 rpm or 7000 rpm.

The HPFP is mechanical so the amount of fuel it is able to flow is entirely RPM dependent. Thus, the crashes typically happen at the lower RPM high boost situations.
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      11-23-2021, 03:34 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
Ok, so here is my theory.

Your HPFP pressure drops significantly down to 900-1100 PSI right in the RPM area of peak torque ~2800-3000 RPM, at the same time you're having throttle closures (I'm assuming because of the overboosting 22+psi -- above 20.6 target). So I know the HPFP is driven by the vacuum pump, and right now I'm not sure how they work together, but I'm assuming that is a factor here because as the RPMs climb you don't have any more throttle closures (you're right at or below boost target) and the HPFP pressure begins to stabilize as it starts climbing to meet target soon after the dip. The stock turbo usually makes max hp in the neighborhood of 5100-5500 RPM, and by that time you're HPFP is meeting target.

So no, I don't think you're maxing out the HPFP because of the HP, but it is maxing out because of the tuning strategy and partly because of it not being able to keep mechanically with the torque demand down low.
If by "tuning strategy" you just mean that they are targeting (and allowing for target to be exceeded) high boost in the low RPM range then yeah i suppose you can call it that, but its not really a "problem" with the tuning strategy, the "problem" appears to be that there isnt enough fuel supply to meet the demand. In other words, the tune shouldnt need to be adjusted to meet the limits of the HPFP. If the HPFP is rated for 500HP on E85 it should meet those demands regardless of whether you make the HP at 3000 rpm or 7000 rpm.

The HPFP is mechanical so the amount of fuel it is able to flow is entirely RPM dependent. Thus, the crashes typically happen at the lower RPM high boost situations.
The pump has no problem hitting the 500whp mark. That has been proven. If you read on Dorch's website, they clearly list tuning strategy as a variable. The pump isn't at it's limits HP wise, it's just that this tune is demanding a lot down low being that the stock turbo spools extremely fast. You're correct, I too believe the pump is mechanically at its limits at that low RPM. I'm confident that this wouldn't be as big of an issue, or an issue at all, if say a PS2 or big boost turbo was in its place.

A lot of torque down low feels nice, but it is detrimental to connecting rods and bearings when you're making that much jam at such a low RPM. That's why MOST custom tunes (no matter the platform) don't bring in the torque/boost that hard in low RPM situations.

I'm still sticking to the both being an issue. It's like trying to get a 2.0L to make 30lbs of boost with a 62mm turbo by 3000RPM, it's not going to happen. Then saying that same engine can't make 30lbs boost, which clearly it can given the chance to increase RPM.

David would be a good candidate here to pump a high ethanol content and test it out on his PS2. 😬
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      11-23-2021, 03:45 PM   #103
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Hey guys, while you're digging into this, check out my latest post (#377) here: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774687

I went back and forth with Chris at Dorch this morning investigating an issue I was having and he helped me get it fixed.

Related to your discussion, he had me start logging the RAM HPFP Angle (Final) parameter in BM3, which shows HPFP duty cycle. If more of us start logging this parameter, it may help diagnosing things like this.

IDK for sure, but it looks like it's showing the behavior that 5w20 is stating when my Dorch Stg 1 dips on E50 at tip in (max torque).
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      11-23-2021, 05:32 PM   #104
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n55 vacuum pump is chain driven (engine rpm dependent) and has a cam that actuates the hpfp. more rpm=more pump.

check out dorch s55 lift kit install guide
https://dorchengineering.com/wp-cont...LK_Install.pdf
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      11-23-2021, 06:26 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, while you're digging into this, check out my latest post (#377) here: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774687

I went back and forth with Chris at Dorch this morning investigating an issue I was having and he helped me get it fixed.

Related to your discussion, he had me start logging the RAM HPFP Angle (Final) parameter in BM3, which shows HPFP duty cycle. If more of us start logging this parameter, it may help diagnosing things like this.

IDK for sure, but it looks like it's showing the behavior that 5w20 is stating when my Dorch Stg 1 dips on E50 at tip in (max torque).
We've all been waiting for / wondering about this parameter for a long time that is analogous to a fuel pressure regulatory duty cycle for a LPFP on PI cars. Didn't know BM3 had it. I wonder if MHD does as well because i am very curious to see this for my car with stock HPFP.
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      11-27-2021, 10:59 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by designatedposter View Post
when using pump gas base tune, i notice that positive STFT is needed to add fuel to meet target AFR.

in the event that the car runs in open loop, you'd be looking at a situation where you will run lean.

do you have any multi-gear logs to see the open/closed loop behavior during gear shifts.
Yes I do. Here are two 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ tune with E78 in tank. XHP was installed. The fuel crash may be at the end of one of them.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e830139

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e83013d

Here are some earlier 1st->4th gear logs running Bootmod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 in the tank. No xHP but I was running Bootmod3 automatic transmission tune. I installed xHP after earlier logs showed that I was hitting a torque maximum. xHP eliminated the issue.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8e4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...729b69de5fb411

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8f0
HERE'S AN UPDATE:

Bootmod3 Tech Support sent me a Test map for FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ in which they said that the fuel scalar had been changed on it. I flashed it and sent in logs. Waiting to hear back for the next step.

I'm wondering if the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 will also need some modification to run full E85 without issue? I don't have access to anything larger than a phone screen right now to view my logs.

Below are my Test Map logs if anyone is interested.

LOGS IN 4TH GEAR

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619f...729b0a93f4d7c5

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619f...729b0b18a269d4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619f...0b432fc163089c

LOGS FROM 1ST TO 4TH GEAR

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619f...729b0a93f4d7d0

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619f...0b432fc16308a1
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      11-29-2021, 08:25 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, while you're digging into this, check out my latest post (#377) here: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774687

I went back and forth with Chris at Dorch this morning investigating an issue I was having and he helped me get it fixed.

Related to your discussion, he had me start logging the RAM HPFP Angle (Final) parameter in BM3, which shows HPFP duty cycle. If more of us start logging this parameter, it may help diagnosing things like this.

IDK for sure, but it looks like it's showing the behavior that 5w20 is stating when my Dorch Stg 1 dips on E50 at tip in (max torque).
We've all been waiting for / wondering about this parameter for a long time that is analogous to a fuel pressure regulatory duty cycle for a LPFP on PI cars. Didn't know BM3 had it. I wonder if MHD does as well because i am very curious to see this for my car with stock HPFP.
Jeremy, Should I add the RAM HPFP Angle (final) parameter to be collected on my latest logs or will that screw up your data analysis?

UPDATE ON 12/29/2021

Received from Bootmod3 Tech Support a new Test2 map to flash and log. Did not receive any analysis of the Test1 Map logs that I sent but I assume they showed something that needed to be modified.

I kept getting an OBD Agent version error when I tried to download the Test2 Map and I am currently waiting for support to reply/fix it.

Comment On Current Speculation:
If the issue is that the mechanical Dorch2 HPFP can't keep up at low revs with the high torque fuel demands of the full E85 tune for the stock N55 EWG turbo, then the obvious solution would appear to be to increase the flow of the HPFP overall.

The Dorch Lift Kit is being released that increases the flow of the Dorch2 by 49%. Perhaps that might be the solution for this configuration?

Attached is a photo of a quick comparison of F30 N55 Dorch HPFP options based on current information on the Dorch Engineering website.
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      11-29-2021, 12:55 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Jeremy, Should I add the RAM HPFP Angle (final) parameter to be collected on my latest logs or will that screw up your data analysis?

UPDATE ON 12/29/2021

Received from Bootmod3 Tech Support a new Test2 map to flash and log. Did not receive any analysis of the Test1 Map logs that I sent but I assume they showed something that needed to be modified.

I kept getting an OBD Agent version error when I tried to download the Test2 Map and I am currently waiting for support to reply/fix it.

Comment On Current Speculation:
If the issue is that the mechanical Dorch2 HPFP can't keep up at low revs with the high torque fuel demands of the full E85 tune for the stock N55 EWG turbo, then the obvious solution would appear to be to increase the flow of the HPFP overall.

The Dorch Lift Kit is being released that increases the flow of the Dorch2 by 49%. Perhaps that might be the solution for this configuration?

Attached is a photo of a quick comparison of F30 N55 Dorch HPFP options based on current information on the Dorch Engineering website.
It seems like adding that parameter is important so go ahead and add it. I will have to adjust my script that plots multiple logs in batches but it shouldnt be a big deal with just an added parameter or two.
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      11-29-2021, 01:09 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Jeremy, Should I add the RAM HPFP Angle (final) parameter to be collected on my latest logs or will that screw up your data analysis?

UPDATE ON 12/29/2021

Received from Bootmod3 Tech Support a new Test2 map to flash and log. Did not receive any analysis of the Test1 Map logs that I sent but I assume they showed something that needed to be modified.

I kept getting an OBD Agent version error when I tried to download the Test2 Map and I am currently waiting for support to reply/fix it.

Comment On Current Speculation:
If the issue is that the mechanical Dorch2 HPFP can't keep up at low revs with the high torque fuel demands of the full E85 tune for the stock N55 EWG turbo, then the obvious solution would appear to be to increase the flow of the HPFP overall.

The Dorch Lift Kit is being released that increases the flow of the Dorch2 by 49%. Perhaps that might be the solution for this configuration?

Attached is a photo of a quick comparison of F30 N55 Dorch HPFP options based on current information on the Dorch Engineering website.
It seems like adding that parameter is important so go ahead and add it. I will have to adjust my script that plots multiple logs in batches but it shouldnt be a big deal with just an added parameter or two.
There were a number of possible logging parameters in that HPFP group. See photo. I chose the one that was mentioned. So once I'm able to load and flash the Test2 Map, those Test2 logs will contain the new parameter. Thanks!
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      11-29-2021, 02:52 PM   #110
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Quote:
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There were a number of possible logging parameters in that HPFP group. See photo. I chose the one that was mentioned. So once I'm able to load and flash the Test2 Map, those Test2 logs will contain the new parameter. Thanks!
HPFP regulator output sounds interesting... since we have all been wondering how the HPFP "regulator" works. Not sure how meaningful the data will be for us, but i would go ahead and add that one too.
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