[Broncho]

My brother in law used to fly the 737 specifically the 800 series and says it was an absolute bugger to land due to its low landing gear height and increased length.

It’s an ageing airframe design that actually sits very low once on the tarmac, it was never a problem with the original engines but the new high bypass engines are bigger and sit lower hence the need on the MAX to have them sit further forward and slightly higher which then contributes to the aircraft wanting to pull its nose up. Boeing have therefore quietly ‘fixed’ the issue with software.

When the sensors go rogue the plane goes into anti stall and pushes the nose down.

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by Watsey

A good friend of mine has been reading much more of the detailed information about the Max than I have.

Apparently the root cause of the problem is the fitting of current gen turbofan engines to an ageing airframe.

The engines are too big and therefore have to be mounted further forwards under the wings than normal, which fundamentally destabilises the aircraft, hence the need for additional controls i.e. the MCAS system.

It beggars belief that Boeing could put these planes into the air without foolproof systems. Sensor failures have been proven to be the root cause of other crashes i.e. Air France - there's no excuse for shortcuts.

Profit before principles.

Makes you wonder why they discontinued the 757 which was very highly regarded and are now trying to get the old 737 to fit that category?

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Nobby Clark

The engines forward theory is quite valid. However, unstable aircraft are qiuite common and a deliberate design. Look at Eurofighter as an expample. The problem lies with the belief software can solve all the hardware problems.
AC these days are being built on ageing designs with modern advances in tech. IMHO, AC should be able to glide as a safety feature. Back to basics.

Nothing wrong software when its done properly, any modern day car might as well be a brick without a working ECU.

Unstable aircraft design is what gives things like Eurofighter amazing maneuverability, pretty much all modern jets like the F22 would fall out of the sky like a rock without software and hydraulics. Its not really an issue for fighters as if the worst happens the pilots can eject, and in most cases the military would probably prefer a wreck on the ground than an intact plane which can be salvaged by the closest farmer.

Not sure you would want the same design philosophy in a commercial jet designed to carry hundreds and civilian pilots, and planes that will be serviced/maintained at minimal cost for decades though.

Boeing has messed up big time, but no amount of guilt is going to make a ounce of difference to the people who died. I cannot imagine what the pilots were thinking leading up to the crash, must have been literally staring death in the face!!

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Broncho

Makes you wonder why they discontinued the 757 which was very highly regarded and are now trying to get the old 737 to fit that category?

It looks like a mistake in hindsight, agreed.

Where the 737 beat the 757 was being low enough to operate from small airfields with manually propelled stairs - the sort of places that proliferate in the US and generally outside of Europe.

This meant that the 737 could compete to replace the 717/MD-80/90/DC-9 (all generations of the same airframe) and other smaller planes that the regional airlines have in huge numbers, and need to replace. The 757 couldn't do that.

Then fit bigger new engines on the 737 MAX to also remain competitive against the A320 NEOs. Big new engines further forward and with a shape to generate more lift in that forwards position, as described above.

Too many upgrades to a 50 year old airframe imho, a clean sheet was needed - but the airline industry is too cut throat to pay for that, which is driven by the majority of us picking the flight that is £10 cheaper when given two options.

Take a look at a picture of a 737-100 with low bypass engines and it's amazing how tiny they look.

You can go back to being the scouse Howard Hughes now

NB. When I've flown out on, say, a B787, and flown home on a A330 I've always considered those two flights as being on two different aircraft types. After reading this thread, I'm not sure which one I am allowed to claim I was on? Longest time on board?

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

It looks like a mistake in hindsight, agreed.

Where the 737 beat the 757 was being low enough to operate from small airfields with manually propelled stairs - the sort of places that proliferate in the US and generally outside of Europe.

This meant that the 737 could compete to replace the 717/MD-80/90/DC-9 (all generations of the same airframe) and other smaller planes that the regional airlines have in huge numbers, and need to replace. The 757 couldn't do that.

Then fit bigger new engines on the 737 MAX to also remain competitive against the A320 NEOs. Big new engines further forward and with a shape to generate more lift in that forwards position, as described above.

Too many upgrades to a 50 year old airframe imho, a clean sheet was needed - but the airline industry is too cut throat to pay for that, which is driven by the majority of us picking the flight that is £10 cheaper when given two options.

Take a look at a picture of a 737-100 with low bypass engines and it's amazing how tiny they look.

You can go back to being the scouse Howard Hughes now

NB. When I've flown out on, say, a B787, and flown home on a A330 I've always considered those two flights as being on two different aircraft types. After reading this thread, I'm not sure which one I am allowed to claim I was on? Longest time on board?

Are you a holiday rep?

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Broncho

Are you a holiday rep?

Nope. Virgin Airline stewardess.

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Nope. Virgin Airline stewardess.

Ahhh that explains your excessive air travel then

[JustChris]

Someone should be going to prison for a very very long time with what's happened on the 737 Max release. Shocking safety.

Would I fly on one, probably once they are released again, I guess when you book you don't know plane it is do you?

[R0B]

Originally Posted by Nobby Clark

Post 26. “Dad”
I dont get why you have a problem substantiating a stat that you made. All I asked was. clarify your claim. There is no deeper intent or MO.
You’ve done that, and I’ve thanked you several times.

Broncho is a terrible liar.

The other week he told me he had drunk 5 halves of lager and had a hangover. I had to explain that given the presence of froth, and taking into account precipitation, his 'claim' was unsubstantiated and he'd only actually had 4 halves of lager and should be executed for his 'claim' and never 'claim' anything again. Damn him and his 'claims'.

[Tengocity]

Loving the airplane geekery here. I'd just discussed this briefly with my neighbour, who's a commercial pilot and instructor, and info in this thread has helped me understand the back story to make sense of what he was trying to tell me about the larger and heavier engines.

The problem with software is that it's never quite right and the quickest way to develop it is beta testing. That's fine for an app, but it's not quite the same if it's safety system in a plane.

By the way, I flew at least 30 times last year, do I get a prize?

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Nobby Clark

Can you elaborate?
The UK 737 operators are Jet2 and TUI? Do you go on holiday 8-10 times a year?

TBF that's 4-5 holidays a year assuming you don't drive back maybe

Edit this will look out of context now but it's not my fault, Bimmerpost App (servers maintained by Boeing Beta testers??) kept it in Draft for all of 4 minutes then Bronchos holiday schedule discussion took off then took a nose dive.

#seewhatididthere

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Someone should be going to prison for a very very long time with what's happened on the 737 Max release. Shocking safety.

Would I fly on one, probably once they are released again, I guess when you book you don't know plane it is do you?

I agree, it's callous and cynical beyond belief. Also, imagine the much greater controversy of this was a US airline that had the crash.

You're right, not much choice when you book apart from choosing a Boeing only or airbus only airline. Even when you know the usual plane, it may be subbed on the day you are flying.

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Someone should be going to prison for a very very long time with what's happened on the 737 Max release. Shocking safety.

Would I fly on one, probably once they are released again, I guess when you book you don't know plane it is do you?

You generally know when you can pre pick your seats.

Alternatively SeatGuru.com is a great place to check.

We’re on a 737 in 4 weeks, but it’s an 800, phew! Not that the max would be flying by then nor do Thomson have any on their fleet.

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by R0B

Broncho is a terrible liar.

The other week he told me he had drunk 5 halves of lager and had a hangover. I had to explain that given the presence of froth, and taking into account precipitation, his 'claim' was unsubstantiated and he'd only actually had 4 halves of lager and should be executed for his 'claim' and never 'claim' anything again. Damn him and his 'claims'.

It's a fair cop guv

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Nothing wrong software when its done properly, any modern day car might as well be a brick without a working ECU.

Unstable aircraft design is what gives things like Eurofighter amazing maneuverability, pretty much all modern jets like the F22 would fall out of the sky like a rock without software and hydraulics. Its not really an issue for fighters as if the worst happens the pilots can eject, and in most cases the military would probably prefer a wreck on the ground than an intact plane which can be salvaged by the closest farmer.

Not sure you would want the same design philosophy in a commercial jet designed to carry hundreds and civilian pilots, and planes that will be serviced/maintained at minimal cost for decades though.

Boeing has messed up big time, but no amount of guilt is going to make a ounce of difference to the people who died. I cannot imagine what the pilots were thinking leading up to the crash, must have been literally staring death in the face!!

Exactly what I was going to type. Thanks for saving me the time - I'll just appreciate your reply

[Fly-by]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

You generally know when you can pre pick your seats.

Alternatively SeatGuru.com is a great place to check.

We’re on a 737 in 4 weeks, but it’s an 800, phew! Not that the max would be flying by then nor do Thomson have any on their fleet.

Just so you know Thomson called TUI now and they do have MAXs and there is at least 5 of them sat on the taxiway near the end of one of Manchester’s runway!

[Fly-by]

I’ve read through the thread and thought I’d stick my say in especially towards the safety in the most part in the aviation industry. I do not fly airbus or Boeing so not biased towards either but do believe the fundamental issue comes into cost as due to the southwest changing the American airline industry followed by the likes of Ryanair following in Europe that people do expect to pay not very much to fly on aircraft in today’s world and where do we expect say £50 (notional amount) per flight ticket to get you and the costs it includes for fuel, pilots, cabin crew, ground handlers, tax etc I could go on. So when looking at the industry it becomes cheaper to redesign older models as they keep commonalities for pilot training etc than design and certify a new design. In the case of the B737 it may now be a step too far to keep up with airbus. The 737 is fundamentally a much older design as the airbus was produced in a much later era with bypass engines and the landing gear design for the clearance to accommodate such engines.

Now this is the second case for Boeing with its last 2 new aircraft after B787 and it’s battery issues. Now when the Max does become airworthy again I’m sure it will be as safe as any other design as the US government are scrutifying the FAA for the original certification so everything will need to checked over and over again but this will no doubt take much longer than Boeing and the airlines want

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by Fly-by

Just so you know Thomson called TUI now and they do have MAXs and there is at least 5 of them sat on the taxiway near the end of one of Manchester’s runway!

TuiFly and Thomson (now TUI Airways) are still separate airlines with different flight codes though. Their our fleet section shows only 737-800’s no Max’s, regardless ours is an 800.

TuiFly have Max’s but we aren’t going with them, their site shows they only have 4 unless they have just had delivery of others.

https://www.tuifly.be/en/our-fleet

https://www.tui.co.uk/flight/flying-with-us/our-fleet

[Fly-by]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

TuiFly and Thomson ( now TUI Planes) are still separate airlines with different flight codes though. Their our fleet section shows only 737-800’s no Max’s, regardless ours is an 800.

TuiFly have Max’s but we aren’t going with them, their site shows they only have 4 unless they have just had delivery of others.

https://www.tuifly.be/en/our-fleet

https://www.tui.co.uk/flight/flying-with-us/our-fleet

No such thing as Thomson anymore it got rebranded TUi Airways which is the the UK branch of TUI. Tuifly is the Belgium branch. The whole TUi group has 70+ Max on order with 20 going to TUI Airways (AKA Thomson) as which 6 have been delivered and wee flying with British Registrations all of which are grounded sat at manchester. Just google TUi airways and Max and you’ll see they do have them. Not to really matter for your holiday as they wont be flying till late summer at the earliest but only an industry guess but maybe for a holiday in the future.

As an aside note Ryanair have a massive order for Max’s to be delivered in the future and the other airline you could commonly see with Max is Norwegian.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Fly-by

No such thing as Thomson anymore it got rebranded TUi Airways which is the the UK branch of TUI. Tuifly is the Belgium branch. The whole TUi group has 70+ Max on order with 20 going to TUI Airways (AKA Thomson) as which 6 have been delivered and wee flying with British Registrations all of which are grounded sat at manchester. Just google TUi airways and Max and you’ll see they do have them. Not to really matter for your holiday as they wont be flying till late summer at the earliest but only an industry guess but maybe for a holiday in the future.

As an aside note Ryanair have a massive order for Max’s to be delivered in the future and the other airline you could commonly see with Max is Norwegian.

Another reason to avoid Ryanair if at all possible

[SkyJawa]

I’m aware of the rebranding from ages ago hence why I said now called Tui Airways. Yes you are right seems their website is out of date, but it’s irrelevant to our flight anyway as said.

Also despite the rebranding they still carry the TOM flight code.

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Another reason to avoid Ryanair if at all possible

You need another?