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      03-29-2017, 03:07 PM   #45
Shadycrew31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otay View Post
This thread is funny. So many varying opinions, and of course it's all subjective. As I said earlier here in this thread, I recently drove a '17 A4 Quattro Premium Plus with Sport (lowered) suspension and thought, "why is this car rated so highly?" Both dynamics and (exterior) looks are very "meh" (in my humble opinion).

S4, I dunno, but I'd pick a '17 F30 RWD with M Sport suspension EVERY DAY over the new A4 quattro.

Maybe the OP should start a poll on this.
OP should buy both and report back in a year.
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      03-29-2017, 04:15 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
IIRC, the new A4 uses the MLB longitudinal...

...That doesn't mean an Audi is a more expensive VW.
I look at it the other way, a VW can be a lower cost bargain Audi.

VW makes some really nice products, as well as making economy products, because the VAG group is a HUGE auto manufacturer.

..hoping the BMW steps back up to the plate and hits a home run with the new G20 chassis 3 series coming next year. BMW NEEDS to make the new 3 series better than great, it needs to be fantastic at least in terms of driving dynamics, imo.
Thank you for the info - I didn't know that Audi went to a new separate platform for 2017.

Don't get me wrong - I don't have an issue with Audi's and VW sharing platforms - many manufacturers do this - parts commonality is a great thing and allows for flexibility, lower inventory costs, shortened supply chains and other advantages beyond economies of scale.

However, I'm just one of those people that can't justify the additional price of an Audi for something that I can get in a VW. And there's where we agree. VW makes some great products. I owned a 1995 B3 Passat and loved that car! I looked seriously at VW and would have bought another Passat, but I was suduced by the darkside and bought a 2006 E90 330i instead. I now own an 2013 F30 and love it for the N55 motor in it, which makes up for its boatlike suspension.

Again, I agree with you regarding the hopes placed on the G20 platform, hence my suggestion that maybe OP should wait and see.
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      03-29-2017, 05:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Shadycrew31 View Post
My 14' 335i Xdrive is slower and handles worse than my stock 10' S4. The A4 of course is slower but handles about the same as the 335 (when not in sport)
What suspension is your 335i spec'ed with? The S4 is closer competition to the 335is which makes more power. You could add the MPPK to your car to make it faster and match the S4.

My 2016 340i + MPPSK makes the same power (Probably more) as the 2018 S4. I haven't driven the S4 but looking at the configurator, the only interior options are black, blackish grey or red with silver or carbon fibre trim. To me that looks ugly. Which makes it an automatic pass for me. I don't do black interior cars.

Quote:
Granted I am biased as I have yet to be wowed by my 335. Every single thing about this car is underwhelming, the glued on interior trim which is falling off (will be covered under warranty), the loud road noise, lack of power, the sloppy handling, tech that just feels half finished, etc. I have not seen anything that resembles a hint of "ultimate driving machine", except for the MPG increase thats been nice.
You bought a car less powerful than the one you had and are complaining of lack of power?

Does your car have the Adaptive Sport suspension?

Last edited by oarnura; 03-29-2017 at 05:34 PM..
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      03-29-2017, 05:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
...From a driving dynamics perspective, I think that the S4 is a better car than the equivalent 340, especially when spec'd with Audi's trick sport (torque vectoring) diff. However, at the lower end, the A4's nose-heavy, FWD architecture doesn't compare with the 320's or 330's RWD architecture.

So it really depends on where you want to compromise. If sporting driving dynamics is more important to you and you're looking at the lower end of the range, I'd buy the BMW (and hold my nose every time I got into its horrible interior). If the overall package - smooth drive, comfort, style - is more important, I'd go for the Audi.
If you must buy this year, the B9 S4 is new for 2017 and thus has the advantage - all else being equal - of newer technology giving a better overall package, as you said, compared to the current 340.

However, all else is not always equal - at least not in the 340 vs. S4 debate. If you are looking for a manual transmission, you have no choice.
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      03-29-2017, 08:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
Ya, old guy here. Been driving BMWs since my mid-20s. I love the brand and still consider myself a "BMW Guy."



Back in the day, there was a pretty clear lineup on the sports car <> luxury car continuum. Merc was to the right with rock-solid luxury. BMW was to the left. No one built the sports car of business saloons like they did. And Audi was in the middle. Beautiful, avant-grade style with driving dynamics betrayed by chasses that started life as common front wheel driver-ers.

Merc's done a good job getting sportier. Younger people don't (necessarily) feel like an old man driving one. But BMW really shifted hard to the left, more luxury-oriented side. And Audi really developed quattro with a primary purpose of enhancing driving dynamics. Foul weather traction is just a nice added benefit. Meanwhile, BMW's xDrive was all about foul weather traction and sapped out anything that was left of the sport in its business saloons.

But I hung on until BMW jettisoned the manual on pretty much everything other than the 3er. I tried to get into that car, but it was just too much of a step down. That got me to looking much more closely at Audi. And others too. If you had posted this thread on a BMW board 10 years ago, you would have been (correctly) shouted down. Mercilessly. The even-keeled responses here show how much that has changed.

Anyway, like others I have high hopes for the next gen 3er. I'm hoping for an M340 that will really compete with the S4.

I just ordered a 17 340IX with M package, Track, and MPPSK... ^^^ makes me regret my decision =/
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      03-30-2017, 12:26 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr3dict View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
Ya, old guy here. Been driving BMWs since my mid-20s. I love the brand and still consider myself a "BMW Guy."



Back in the day, there was a pretty clear lineup on the sports car <> luxury car continuum. Merc was to the right with rock-solid luxury. BMW was to the left. No one built the sports car of business saloons like they did. And Audi was in the middle. Beautiful, avant-grade style with driving dynamics betrayed by chasses that started life as common front wheel driver-ers.

Merc's done a good job getting sportier. Younger people don't (necessarily) feel like an old man driving one. But BMW really shifted hard to the left, more luxury-oriented side. And Audi really developed quattro with a primary purpose of enhancing driving dynamics. Foul weather traction is just a nice added benefit. Meanwhile, BMW's xDrive was all about foul weather traction and sapped out anything that was left of the sport in its business saloons.

But I hung on until BMW jettisoned the manual on pretty much everything other than the 3er. I tried to get into that car, but it was just too much of a step down. That got me to looking much more closely at Audi. And others too. If you had posted this thread on a BMW board 10 years ago, you would have been (correctly) shouted down. Mercilessly. The even-keeled responses here show how much that has changed.

Anyway, like others I have high hopes for the next gen 3er. I'm hoping for an M340 that will really compete with the S4.

I just ordered a 17 340IX with M package, Track, and MPPSK... ^^^ makes me regret my decision =/
Don't. The F30 is still the best 3 series yet. Do you track? If not then the slightly less engaging steering won't effect your commute. If you do track, your lap times will still be as good or better than any similarly modded e90, c-class or Audi in your class. The best part? Your car is new and under warranty. Fact is, the majority of the people in this thread who say that the steering isn't as good as a E90 will probably never even take advantage of it nor will it really effect their daily driving or lap times.

That doesn't mean it perfect and that BMW shouldn't do better on the next 3 series, but it doesn't make the F30 undrivable. I've had 3 F30's and I can tell you that they were great cars to own and there is a reason I didn't stop with my first F30.
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      03-30-2017, 06:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Pr3dict View Post
I just ordered a 17 340IX with M package, Track, and MPPSK... ^^^ makes me regret my decision =/
I think you'll find that in NY, you can walk away from your order and get your deposit fully refunded. It may not feel good, but dealers understand it's a cost of doing business. btw, if you haven't already, take a look at the new Audi S5 Sportback. Drop-dead gorgeous imo. https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-s5-sportback
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      03-30-2017, 07:03 AM   #52
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I'll weight in. My job is buying cars. I've driven a LOT of recent A4s and 3 series. I daily a '13 M-Sport 328i.

Interior/exterior looks are subjective so it is what it is. As far as driving, I prefer the way the BMW feels. The Audi is fine and the turbo seems to spool up faster and with more initial grunt than the the 3 series but the 3 tends to make power longer (328/330).

I do prefer the clutch in the A4 as the one in the 3 just feels vague and harder to be smooth with, it takes time to learn.

The brakes in the 3 feel better and I feel the 3 has sharper turn in and just feels better when corning. The Audi is more comfortable over bumps though.

If you spend a lot of time in traffic and want to be more comfortable I'd say get the A4. If you want the better driving experience, get the 3.
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      03-30-2017, 07:06 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Don't. The F30 is still the best 3 series yet.
fwiw, I think that you're correct depending on where you are in the lineup . . .
At the lower end (320/330 vs A4), I'd go for the BMW (and as I've said before, hold my nose when I get into the interior).
At the higher end (340 vs S4), I'd go for the Audi.
At the uber end (M4 vs RS4), I'd go for the BMW.

You see, although I drive an Audi right now, I'm really "BMW Guy". But Audi's upper end (S4 and S6) are far more dynamically superior to the current 340 and the old 550. I believe that's why BMW is moving to "sport-up" this part of their range. I'd bet that the new M550 will be a better car than the current S6, and that the next-gen M340 will be better than the new S4.
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      03-30-2017, 09:59 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Don't. The F30 is still the best 3 series yet. Do you track? If not then the slightly less engaging steering won't effect your commute. If you do track, your lap times will still be as good or better than any similarly modded e90, c-class or Audi in your class.
I took my 2014 Camaro SS 1LE to the track and loved it and I hope to bring this 340 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
I think you'll find that in NY, you can walk away from your order and get your deposit fully refunded. It may not feel good, but dealers understand it's a cost of doing business. btw, if you haven't already, take a look at the new Audi S5 Sportback. Drop-dead gorgeous imo. https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-s5-sportback
My only issue with the car is that the inside seems dated. I feel My 2014 Camaro had a better HUD and the whole IDrive system feels dated. A little upset that it doesnt come with Android Auto like the Audi does, Google Maps or Waze does the job so much better.

As for the deposit, my car is already in production and I did the deal with a friend of mine so It would not end to nicely if I walked away now. Also, the Audi S4 or even the unreleased S5 will not have anywhere near the same deal/monthly that I'm getting for the BMW.

Though that s5 looks so sexy.
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      03-30-2017, 10:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
fwiw, I think that you're correct depending on where you are in the lineup . . .
At the lower end (320/330 vs A4), I'd go for the BMW (and as I've said before, hold my nose when I get into the interior).
At the higher end (340 vs S4), I'd go for the Audi.
At the uber end (M4 vs RS4), I'd go for the BMW.

You see, although I drive an Audi right now, I'm really "BMW Guy". But Audi's upper end (S4 and S6) are far more dynamically superior to the current 340 and the old 550. I believe that's why BMW is moving to "sport-up" this part of their range. I'd bet that the new M550 will be a better car than the current S6, and that the next-gen M340 will be better than the new S4.
Have you driven a 340 kitted to match the S4?
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      03-30-2017, 10:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr3dict View Post
I took my 2014 Camaro SS 1LE to the track and loved it and I hope to bring this 340 as well.



My only issue with the car is that the inside seems dated. I feel My 2014 Camaro had a better HUD and the whole IDrive system feels dated. A little upset that it doesnt come with Android Auto like the Audi does, Google Maps or Waze does the job so much better.

As for the deposit, my car is already in production and I did the deal with a friend of mine so It would not end to nicely if I walked away now. Also, the Audi S4 or even the unreleased S5 will not have anywhere near the same deal/monthly that I'm getting for the BMW.

Though that s5 looks so sexy.
The point is the S5 might be better but it could be $100-200/mo better.

Audi is just horrible to lease. Horrible reliability history to own. and now the horrible company reputation too with all the cheats.

S5 Sportsback does look better than 440i GC. I always cross shop with Audi but the horrible lease always turn me away.

Last edited by hollandog; 03-30-2017 at 10:54 AM..
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      03-30-2017, 11:25 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by hollandog View Post
The point is the S5 might be better but it could be $100-200/mo better. Audi is just horrible to lease. Horrible reliability history to own. and now the horrible company reputation too with all the cheats.
I agree with you on Audi's lease rates. If you're leasing, it's very difficult to cross-shop BMW and Audi. Regarding reliability, have you had a poor experience? My two Audi's have been every bit as reliable as my BMWs.
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      03-30-2017, 11:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pr3dict View Post
My only issue with the car is that the inside seems dated. I feel My 2014 Camaro had a better HUD and the whole IDrive system feels dated. A little upset that it doesnt come with Android Auto like the Audi does, Google Maps or Waze does the job so much better.
Well I'll try to make you feel a bit better. BMW's technology is hands down better than Audi's imo. MMI is second to iDrive, but iDrive remains the best interface in the market. And Audi's HUD is waaay down the list. There are many manufactures whose HUDs are better than theirs.
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      03-30-2017, 11:41 AM   #59
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Have you driven a 340 kitted to match the S4?
I've driven a 340ix pretty extensively. It was a 6MT with MSport and Track Handling. It did not have the M Performance bits (which I would have spec'd had I ordered that car). I really wanted to get into that car and even considered going to the 440ix because I could add Individual marino leather to dress up its Kia interior. But the xDrive driving dynamics kill the car imo.

As I said I'm my earlier post, BMW developed xDrive pretty exclusively for foul weather traction. Audi's quattro in its S models has torque vectoring back-to-front and (optionally with its Sports Diff) left-to-right. Its the latter bit that really gives those cars that go-kart-like handling. And if you're a "driver", you don't need to be anywhere near a track to feel it.

BMW developed a back-to-front and left-to-right vectoring system for the X6 M (maybe the X5 M as well), so they know how to do it. I'm guessing it'll be on the new AWD M5 and I'm hoping it makes its way down to the M550 and M340 as well. Time will tell . . .
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      03-30-2017, 12:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
I've driven a 340ix pretty extensively. It was a 6MT with MSport and Track Handling. It did not have the M Performance bits (which I would have spec'd had I ordered that car). I really wanted to get into that car and even considered going to the 440ix because I could add Individual marino leather to dress up its Kia interior. But the xDrive driving dynamics kill the car imo.

As I said I'm my earlier post, BMW developed xDrive pretty exclusively for foul weather traction. Audi's quattro in its S models has torque vectoring back-to-front and (optionally with its Sports Diff) left-to-right. Its the latter bit that really gives those cars that go-kart-like handling. And if you're a "driver", you don't need to be anywhere near a track to feel it.

BMW developed a back-to-front and left-to-right vectoring system for the X6 M (maybe the X5 M as well), so they know how to do it. I'm guessing it'll be on the new AWD M5 and I'm hoping it makes its way down to the M550 and M340 as well. Time will tell . . .
I wouldn't buy an XDrive 3 series for driving dynamics. That's why I have the RWD version. Being in California makes that decision easy.
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      03-30-2017, 12:20 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
If you must buy this year, the B9 S4 is new for 2017 and thus has the advantage - all else being equal - of newer technology giving a better overall package, as you said, compared to the current 340.

However, all else is not always equal - at least not in the 340 vs. S4 debate. If you are looking for a manual transmission, you have no choice.
Agreed.......and when the next 3er comes out IT will be the better choice and so on and so on.........
This is probably the most civilized Audi vs BMW thread i've ever read!. WTF is going on here??
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      03-30-2017, 09:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonkey View Post
A4 is nice, but shares its platform with the Passat. S4 is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
IIRC, the new A4 uses the MLB longitudinal platform, which has the A4 as the smallest car on that platform, and the A6 and A7 use the flexible platform as well.

The 2017 US Passat uses the old transverse platform.
The current Euro Passat uses the new MQB transverse platform.
The Passat is not on the same platform as the A4.
Just for clarity, the A4 has used a longitudinally mounted motor for a long time, including on the B8 chassis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadycrew31 View Post
My 14' 335i Xdrive is slower and handles worse than my stock 10' S4. The A4 of course is slower but handles about the same as the 335 (when not in sport)

The tech in the B9 A4 is pretty great but I'd still go with a 335 over an A4 just for the power. If you are comparing a 328 to an A4 there is no comparison, the A4 wins hands down. The 328 is loud in both road and engine noise and all 3 series are much less refined even when compared to earlier Audis.

Granted I am biased as I have yet to be wowed by my 335. Every single thing about this car is underwhelming, the glued on interior trim which is falling off (will be covered under warranty), the loud road noise, lack of power, the sloppy handling, tech that just feels half finished, etc. I have not seen anything that resembles a hint of "ultimate driving machine", except for the MPG increase thats been nice.

If I had more time to look for another S4 I would have stuck with Audi but I was pressed for time and the 335 was priced right and had 17k on the clock.
?? You bought the wrong BMW. And you didn't understand how BMW views AWD as opposed to how Audi views it. BMW designs and builds RWD cars. That's what you should have bought, with a sport suspension. BMW figures if you want xDrive you must live somewhere where you get a butt-load of snow and you really need to get through it no matter what. Otherwise you'd be buying what they designed, a RWD model. And, as has been mentioned, Audi doesn't make an A4 model that competes with the stock 335/340. The RS jumps higher than the 335/340 in both power and price. The ratio of 335/340 sales to 328/330 is much higher than the ratio of RS4 sales to A4 sales.

The bottom line between the two makes always comes down to this - if you buy a base Audi (A4, A6, even A8) you get a FWD car. If you buy a base BMW you get a weight balanced, RWD car. And RWD cars are capable of sportier driving dynamics than FWD cars are.
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      03-31-2017, 08:19 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oarnura View Post
What suspension is your 335i spec'ed with? The S4 is closer competition to the 335is which makes more power. You could add the MPPK to your car to make it faster and match the S4.

My 2016 340i + MPPSK makes the same power (Probably more) as the 2018 S4. I haven't driven the S4 but looking at the configurator, the only interior options are black, blackish grey or red with silver or carbon fibre trim. To me that looks ugly. Which makes it an automatic pass for me. I don't do black interior cars.



You bought a car less powerful than the one you had and are complaining of lack of power?

Does your car have the Adaptive Sport suspension?
Not sure on the adaptive suspension I am assuming no. The MPPK is in my future for sure. I knew going in the car had 20 less HP but with the turbo lag it feels like I'm standing still compared to the supercharged V6. Thought I could get used to it but instead it annoys me daily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Just for clarity, the A4 has used a longitudinally mounted motor for a long time, including on the B8 chassis.
That might be true, but the B9 is now equipped with 250 hp and is much mroe peppy than the B8.


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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
?? You bought the wrong BMW. And you didn't understand how BMW views AWD as opposed to how Audi views it. BMW designs and builds RWD cars. That's what you should have bought, with a sport suspension. BMW figures if you want xDrive you must live somewhere where you get a butt-load of snow and you really need to get through it no matter what. Otherwise you'd be buying what they designed, a RWD model. And, as has been mentioned, Audi doesn't make an A4 model that competes with the stock 335/340. The RS jumps higher than the 335/340 in both power and price. The ratio of 335/340 sales to 328/330 is much higher than the ratio of RS4 sales to A4 sales.
So your argument is that they cant compete with an AWD sports car so they are superior?

Also they haven't brought an RS4 over for two generations, possibly 3 not sure what the B9 holds for us.

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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The bottom line between the two makes always comes down to this - if you buy a base Audi (A4, A6, even A8) you get a FWD car. If you buy a base BMW you get a weight balanced, RWD car. And RWD cars are capable of sportier driving dynamics than FWD cars are.
The majority of A4's are quattro, A6's are all quattro and you can get the 3.0T supercharged engine in there. A8's same thing as the 6's. Again not in sport mode the 335i handles about as well as the A4.


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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
Well I'll try to make you feel a bit better. BMW's technology is hands down better than Audi's imo. MMI is second to iDrive, but iDrive remains the best interface in the market. And Audi's HUD is waaay down the list. There are many manufactures whose HUDs are better than theirs.
idrive is garbage compared to the B9 MMI, idrive still requires you to have apps that BMW can interface with. The 2017's don't need to be connected but you still are limited and they are super slow at releasing apps.

The older MMI was much worse than idrive for sure, but the newer one on the B9's is light years ahead and it works with Android auto or apple car play. This leaves the app development with the OS and requires nothing from Audi.

Sidenote: I was shocked that BMW is charging to update maps still, wasn't sure if I traveled back to 2010.
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      03-31-2017, 10:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Shadycrew31 View Post
idrive is garbage compared to the B9 MMI, idrive still requires you to have apps that BMW can interface with. The 2017's don't need to be connected but you still are limited and they are super slow at releasing apps.

The older MMI was much worse than idrive for sure, but the newer one on the B9's is light years ahead and it works with Android auto or apple car play. This leaves the app development with the OS and requires nothing from Audi.

Sidenote: I was shocked that BMW is charging to update maps still, wasn't sure if I traveled back to 2010.
Yeah it's depressing. Android Auto looks so nice on all the vehicles I've seen it on. I see that an aftermarket company makes a replacement for the Idrive system to work with Android Auto but I don't trust something like that coming out of china.

BMW is totally a generation behind when it comes to that stuff. Nobody should be using the built in GPS applications in cars anymore. Google maps/Waze should be your only option.
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      03-31-2017, 10:28 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Pr3dict View Post
Yeah it's depressing. Android Auto looks so nice on all the vehicles I've seen it on. I see that an aftermarket company makes a replacement for the Idrive system to work with Android Auto but I don't trust something like that coming out of china.

BMW is totally a generation behind when it comes to that stuff. Nobody should be using the built in GPS applications in cars anymore. Google maps/Waze should be your only option.
Apparently their CTO is not very techy.
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      03-31-2017, 10:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by supergoat View Post
I'll weight in. My job is buying cars. I've driven a LOT of recent A4s and 3 series. I daily a '13 M-Sport 328i.

Interior/exterior looks are subjective so it is what it is. As far as driving, I prefer the way the BMW feels. The Audi is fine and the turbo seems to spool up faster and with more initial grunt than the the 3 series but the 3 tends to make power longer (328/330).

I do prefer the clutch in the A4 as the one in the 3 just feels vague and harder to be smooth with, it takes time to learn.

The brakes in the 3 feel better and I feel the 3 has sharper turn in and just feels better when corning. The Audi is more comfortable over bumps though.

If you spend a lot of time in traffic and want to be more comfortable I'd say get the A4. If you want the better driving experience, get the 3.
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