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      01-27-2021, 09:08 AM   #2795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmgreenwood View Post
I have never said poor UK decision making and timing was not a reason in the death numbers, all I am saying is that is not the sole reason.

And did none of those other quick lockdown countries had any variations in their overall death rate versus NZ? If they did what caused the variations in your opinion?
I agree itís not the sole reason, itís enforcing those policies and additional policies that were totally missing that causes the main differences.

Too many countries managed it with totally different demographics, climates etc for that to be much of a part.

We know that it spreads indoors, but the freedom businesses have to still operate with very little control here isnít helping.

I had a Teams meeting yesterday with British colleagues based in Singapore, they were in a big conference room. Just two people, both wearing masks sat far apart.

We then had a U.K. management briefing for three hours and 6 members of our board were in a meeting room together presenting to us for two hours. No masks and I know the room has almost no ventilation.

Our rules and our guidance is piss poor. Our lockdown is too wishy washy and our public takes advantage of that every chance they get.
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      01-27-2021, 09:31 AM   #2796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmgreenwood View Post
I have never said poor UK decision making and timing was not a reason in the death numbers, all I am saying is that is not the sole reason.

And did none of those other quick lockdown countries had any variations in their overall death rate versus NZ? If they did what caused the variations in your opinion?
I agree it’s not the sole reason, it’s enforcing those policies and additional policies that were totally missing that causes the main differences.

Too many countries managed it with totally different demographics, climates etc for that to be much of a part.

We know that it spreads indoors, but the freedom businesses have to still operate with very little control here isn’t helping.

I had a Teams meeting yesterday with British colleagues based in Singapore, they were in a big conference room. Just two people, both wearing masks sat far apart.

We then had a U.K. management briefing for three hours and 6 members of our board were in a meeting room together presenting to us for two hours. No masks and I know the room has almost no ventilation.

Our rules and our guidance is piss poor. Our lockdown is too wishy washy and our public takes advantage of that every chance they get.
Some interesting stuff here:

Covid-19: 'Poor decisions' to blame for UK death toll, scientists say https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55820178
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      01-27-2021, 09:41 AM   #2797
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Originally Posted by JD6 View Post
I think that there is a balance to be struck with lockdowns, particularly in the impact they have in the less well off. It's all very well to be sitting in a spacious house with a garden, with work that can be done from home, calling for tougher lockdowns, but the impact on some parts of society which aren't well represented on this forum could be quite significant.

I'm sure that Covid will have left us with some serious mental health issues in the UK, but in my view, the situation in France and particularly Spain, with effective imprisonment of the population could be more damaging. Hence the suggestion that looking at death figures in isolation doesn't give a full picture.
I think what everyone really needs now is some direction and visibility that a plan is actually in place. Everyone can manage restrictions on their lives if they know why and for how long and the government should be able to put something like that in place and announce it. I know there are lots of variable and it can change but most people are ok with change if it's explained why it's happening. Planning and being effective isn't even in the dot-to-dot playbook of this bunch of clowns.

Something like - the lockdown will need to last until hospital admissions have fallen to X and new infections are below y. Then areas will go into the tiered levels with tier 4 being whilst hospital admissions are at X-n and new infections are Y-m etc etc. If they go above that then you move into the next tier or we go back to a full lockdown. All the info will be published daily, if you're in an area in one tier and you see the rates rising, limit what you do yourself before we have to!
I believe they're planning something along those lines. A bit late in the day, but why change now?
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      01-27-2021, 10:31 AM   #2798
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Originally Posted by pmgreenwood View Post
Yes but if garage follows Covid safe operation rules, hand sanitiser, masks and distancing how high is the additional risk.
It is not just about what happens in the garage , the employees need to get to work either on public transport so at some point their car will need fuel , their customers need to get too and from the garage , their suppliers will need to deliver or a member of staff will need to pick materials.

The message is , essential travel only , to stop the spread , no part of getting a dent repaired / refinishing alloy wheels or buying a watch could possibly be deemed as essential.

By the same token i am classed as an essential worker as i am employed in the newspaper industry , why in this day and age are newspapers essential i have no idea with 24h news coverage on TV etc.

I fully understand why some businesses , financially, need to function to stay afloat and am not knocking them and would do the same thing if it was my own company but , the lockdown parameters seem a bit vague to say the least.

K
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      01-27-2021, 10:46 AM   #2799
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It is not just about what happens in the garage , the employees need to get to work either on public transport so at some point their car will need fuel , their customers need to get too and from the garage , their suppliers will need to deliver or a member of staff will need to pick materials.

The message is , essential travel only , to stop the spread , no part of getting a dent repaired / refinishing alloy wheels or buying a watch could possibly be deemed as essential.

By the same token i am classed as an essential worker as i am employed in the newspaper industry , why in this day and age are newspapers essential i have no idea with 24h news coverage on TV etc.

I fully understand why some businesses , financially, need to function to stay afloat and am not knocking them and would do the same thing if it was my own company but , the lockdown parameters seem a bit vague to say the least.

K
I can live with dent removal - it could be a dangerous panel that stopped you using your car or a lease return that needs doing. I dont get the watch shop - but I guess they are using the click and collect rules to try to get round it.

I cant understand they the Range is open, what the f*** do they sell that is ever essential.....?

But then if the public stuck to the rules they would shut again as no customers.....
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      01-27-2021, 10:53 AM   #2800
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Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
I can live with dent removal - it could be a dangerous panel that stopped you using your car or a lease return that needs doing. I dont get the watch shop - but I guess they are using the click and collect rules to try to get round it.

I cant understand they the Range is open, what the f*** do they sell that is ever essential.....?

But then if the public stuck to the rules they would shut again as no customers.....
I think what becomes essential increases with the length of Lockdown. If only a week food and medicines full stop. if over a week so common household goods including electrical items. more than three months of car service etc, more than six months clothes starts to become essential
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      01-27-2021, 11:00 AM   #2801
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Originally Posted by pmgreenwood View Post
I think what becomes essential increases with the length of Lockdown. If only a week food and medicines full stop. if over a week so common household goods including electrical items. more than three months of car service etc, more than six months clothes starts to become essential
Happy for businesses to be open, but the rules need to be stricter when they do open.

You talked about rules for wearing masks etc in the work place, but there arenít any as far as I can see. Some garages do it through good practice, but theyíre not obliged to I donít think.

Offices similar, there are offices still open with most in them not wearing masks, still thinking that 2 meters apart will stop it spreading when theyíre sat there for 8 hours.

Same with tradesmen. Moving house soon and had a few round fixing things. Only those working for bigger companies put a mask on when they come in.
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      01-27-2021, 11:04 AM   #2802
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Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby View Post
I believe they're planning something along those lines. A bit late in the day, but why change now?
Looks like they couldn't be arsed to go beyond "schools may open in March" before it felt too much like a plan and they gave up.
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      01-27-2021, 11:09 AM   #2803
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Happy for businesses to be open, but the rules need to be stricter when they do open.

You talked about rules for wearing masks etc in the work place, but there arenít any as far as I can see. Some garages do it through good practice, but theyíre not obliged to I donít think.

Offices similar, there are offices still open with most in them not wearing masks, still thinking that 2 meters apart will stop it spreading when theyíre sat there for 8 hours.

Same with tradesmen. Moving house soon and had a few round fixing things. Only those working for bigger companies put a mask on when they come in.
My uncle (who's now in hospital with Covid) and aunt caught it off their cleaner. It seems mad that people can go house to house cleaning but their kids couldn't go and see them.
Saying that, we still have our cleaners as they wanted to keep working, we just make sure we're out the house for a couple of hours on a walk when they come.
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      01-27-2021, 11:20 AM   #2804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendo67 View Post
Got to agree with this , in November we booked the boys car into a local bodyshop at some point in January to have a small dent in the rear quarter repaired and they contacted us last week to confirm the booking ?

His alloys also need refinished and i was astounded to see that the local wheel place is still trading as usual ?

Looking on Watchfinder this morning i was surprised to see that the Glasgow branch is open as per usual but with appointment only , AFAIK it has always been appointment only basis.

Roads are still busy around here so where are all the people going ?

Seems we are in a "soft" lockdown as opposed to a proper one like LD1.

K
I think part of this is that businesses need to function to survive, and people are making those decisions. The support from the government only goes so far. In the first lockdown, everyone got the message, but also thought (hoped) it would be for a shortish period. Now, who knows how long we could be like this?

Of course this is a viscous circle, as more mixing spreads infection, but if its the difference between your business going under, and potentially staying afloat, then that is what those that can will do, especially if you can do it with social distance etc
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      01-27-2021, 11:25 AM   #2805
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My uncle (who's now in hospital with Covid) and aunt caught it off their cleaner. It seems mad that people can go house to house cleaning but their kids couldn't go and see them.
Saying that, we still have our cleaners as they wanted to keep working, we just make sure we're out the house for a couple of hours on a walk when they come.
I’d have to clean everything after the cleaner had been.

Wouldn’t trust them to keep masks on whilst working.

We don’t have cleaners since my wife went part time when we had kids.

We’ve replaced the cost of cleaners with the cost of relationship therapy for all the fucking arguing cleaning causes.
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      01-27-2021, 12:28 PM   #2806
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Same with tradesmen. Moving house soon and had a few round fixing things. Only those working for bigger companies put a mask on when they come in.
I wouldn't have let them in without one. We've just had the boiler and the burglar alarm serviced, which I suppose are not 100% essential, except to maintain the warranty. Everyone who came in the house wore a mask the whole time and we did the same.
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      01-27-2021, 01:09 PM   #2807
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Question for the medical folks on here.....

We've had an extended family bubble with my daughter since last March, as her and her partner are key workers on shifts, and we sometimes need to look after our two Granddaughters. No issues at all in that time.

Last Monday evening (18th) she started feeling a bit under the weather, and subsequently returned a positive COVID test on Tuesday evening. Very mild symptoms that had completely disappeared by Thursday, and neither her partner or the girls have shown any symptoms at all. They've been self-isolating since then, and their isolation period ends (in theory) 10 days after the first onset of symptoms, which was the 18th. On that basis, they are intending to re-enter circulation from this Friday (29th) as isolation ends on Thursday evening.

They're both working on Saturday with a crossover in shifts, and have asked if we'll take the girls for the afternoon.

So my question is this: is there any significant risk of contracting COVID in these circumstances? Whilst we can easily do a handover in a 'distanced' fashion, my concern is that the girls (4 & 2) could be asymptomatic carriers and still shedding virus if they didn't pick it up from my daughter or her partner until later in the week or early this week.

My wife and I are both late 50's, fit as a pack of butcher's dogs with no known underlying health issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we'd only experience milder symptoms.

Would appreciate your thoughts.....
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      01-27-2021, 01:42 PM   #2808
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I wouldn't have let them in without one. We've just had the boiler and the burglar alarm serviced, which I suppose are not 100% essential, except to maintain the warranty. Everyone who came in the house wore a mask the whole time and we did the same.
I didnít, I asked them to put one on, but they were already half way through the door and they had to go back to their vans to get them.

Removals man quoting and Ideal boiler man fixing a broken boiler both wore them. Local self employed electrician and gas fitters did not want to.
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      01-27-2021, 02:16 PM   #2809
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby View Post
I wouldn't have let them in without one. We've just had the boiler and the burglar alarm serviced, which I suppose are not 100% essential, except to maintain the warranty. Everyone who came in the house wore a mask the whole time and we did the same.
I didn’t, I asked them to put one on, but they were already half way through the door and they had to go back to their vans to get them.

Removals man quoting and Ideal boiler man fixing a broken boiler both wore them. Local self employed electrician and gas fitters did not want to.
Ah, see what you mean. Bit of a worry as no doubt a lot of people would not feel comfortable challenging them, so they go merrily on their way spreading it around.
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      01-27-2021, 02:26 PM   #2810
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Ah, see what you mean. Bit of a worry as no doubt a lot of people would not feel comfortable challenging them, so they go merrily on their way spreading it around.
I have to admit I did think twice before saying something. The electrician who came Monday particularly, as we know him as a friend as well. But, I decided Iíd had my jab Saturday, it seemed especially silly to be taking risks before it had even had chance to offer me some protection.
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      01-27-2021, 02:51 PM   #2811
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from 8 pm yesterday Anyone watching 54 days on BBC2 right now?


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Originally Posted by DougMcL View Post
It looks like the Chinese government sat (illegally) on genome sequencing it possessed early January. Criminal.
Just watched it now via Iplayer. Certainly the time taken by their Government to lock China down makes Boris look comparatively quick and responsive.
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      01-27-2021, 03:10 PM   #2812
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Originally Posted by Blacktemplar View Post
Question for the medical folks on here.....

We've had an extended family bubble with my daughter since last March, as her and her partner are key workers on shifts, and we sometimes need to look after our two Granddaughters. No issues at all in that time.

Last Monday evening (18th) she started feeling a bit under the weather, and subsequently returned a positive COVID test on Tuesday evening. Very mild symptoms that had completely disappeared by Thursday, and neither her partner or the girls have shown any symptoms at all. They've been self-isolating since then, and their isolation period ends (in theory) 10 days after the first onset of symptoms, which was the 18th. On that basis, they are intending to re-enter circulation from this Friday (29th) as isolation ends on Thursday evening.

They're both working on Saturday with a crossover in shifts, and have asked if we'll take the girls for the afternoon.

So my question is this: is there any significant risk of contracting COVID in these circumstances? Whilst we can easily do a handover in a 'distanced' fashion, my concern is that the girls (4 & 2) could be asymptomatic carriers and still shedding virus if they didn't pick it up from my daughter or her partner until later in the week or early this week.

My wife and I are both late 50's, fit as a pack of butcher's dogs with no known underlying health issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we'd only experience milder symptoms.

Would appreciate your thoughts.....
technically from your description you can assume you are ok to look after the kids come the 29th.

This is not free of risk but if your grandkids require care what can you realistically do?

Also the grandkids might become asymptomatic carriers at anytime so its either a firm 'no until we are vaccinated we aren't going to provide childcare' or
accepting small risks but moving on for family's sake.

If I was a granddad I would do the latter
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      01-27-2021, 03:17 PM   #2813
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technically from your description you can assume you are ok to look after the kids come the 29th.

This is not free of risk but if your grandkids require care what can you realistically do?

Also the grandkids might become asymptomatic carriers at anytime so its either a firm 'no until we are vaccinated we aren't going to provide childcare' or
accepting small risks but moving on for family's sake.

If I was a granddad I would do the latter
Thanks, appreciate the reply. I've probably been comfortable with the 'small risk' part for a long time, in the knowledge that as key workers they have a higher chance of being exposed.

It's the 'closer to home' moment when chance becomes reality that makes you think about it more carefully.

In the end I agree with you, and we either accept that small risk, or we don't.
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      01-27-2021, 03:54 PM   #2814
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Originally Posted by Blacktemplar View Post
Question for the medical folks on here.....

We've had an extended family bubble with my daughter since last March, as her and her partner are key workers on shifts, and we sometimes need to look after our two Granddaughters. No issues at all in that time.

Last Monday evening (18th) she started feeling a bit under the weather, and subsequently returned a positive COVID test on Tuesday evening. Very mild symptoms that had completely disappeared by Thursday, and neither her partner or the girls have shown any symptoms at all. They've been self-isolating since then, and their isolation period ends (in theory) 10 days after the first onset of symptoms, which was the 18th. On that basis, they are intending to re-enter circulation from this Friday (29th) as isolation ends on Thursday evening.

They're both working on Saturday with a crossover in shifts, and have asked if we'll take the girls for the afternoon.

So my question is this: is there any significant risk of contracting COVID in these circumstances? Whilst we can easily do a handover in a 'distanced' fashion, my concern is that the girls (4 & 2) could be asymptomatic carriers and still shedding virus if they didn't pick it up from my daughter or her partner until later in the week or early this week.

My wife and I are both late 50's, fit as a pack of butcher's dogs with no known underlying health issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we'd only experience milder symptoms.

Would appreciate your thoughts.....
You can go back to work 10 days after first symptoms / positive test so I'd say you ae fine.

My youngest grandson had a week off nursery at the start of Jan when the nursery had a positive test. Given I live with them and was helping with child care whilst he was at home - and he is just 1 and loves a cuddle - I was with him lots and just had to accept that if he was carrying I'd get it. But I didnt which is probably good as I am Boris' age and a bit less healthy!

Have them, enjoy and live for now.
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      01-27-2021, 06:06 PM   #2815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktemplar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
technically from your description you can assume you are ok to look after the kids come the 29th.

This is not free of risk but if your grandkids require care what can you realistically do?

Also the grandkids might become asymptomatic carriers at anytime so its either a firm 'no until we are vaccinated we aren't going to provide childcare' or
accepting small risks but moving on for family's sake.

If I was a granddad I would do the latter
Thanks, appreciate the reply. I've probably been comfortable with the 'small risk' part for a long time, in the knowledge that as key workers they have a higher chance of being exposed.

It's the 'closer to home' moment when chance becomes reality that makes you think about it more carefully.

In the end I agree with you, and we either accept that small risk, or we don't.
I know you have a bunch of good answers already, so I will just give you my feelings on the infectious disease side. The little ones seem to be really asymptomatic. When my 8 year old had it, I was really surprised as he didn't even have a runny nose. He gave it to his 13 yo sister and she had symptoms. But he did not give it to the rest of us. After the positive test we of course took precautions.

From my experience the little ones have the same viral load but don't seem to spread as easily unless they are really yelling. That matches what we encountered. The little fellow was frightened by a storm the night before we tested him. That evening he climbed into bed with us and slept most of the night in our bed and did not infect us. We tested him that next morning (it was our Thanksgiving holiday and we were testing our holiday dinner bubble). He also spent time in my car for 2-3 days before we tested him and I also was not infected. My 17 yo even picked him up one day from outdoor soccer camp and she didn't get it. Obviously once we found him positive, we quarantined and stoped all activities for 14 days (this was last fall so 14 days was the rule).

He gave it to his sister prior to our testing since they were home together during our fall break and were playing and fighting over video games. The 17 yo was home babysitting the whole time and she never got it.

We frequently tested so we tracked the whole infection course of both kids and verified that we were negative.

At that time only my 17 yo was vaccinated (she got the real virus in the trial, while my wife and I initially had the placebo).

Anyway, my feelings is have fun and enjoy the kids and if worried wear a mask. We all wore masks in the house during our "hot zone" adventure and kept the windows opened and fans moving air around. We did just fine.
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      01-28-2021, 03:42 AM   #2816
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I know you have a bunch of good answers already, so I will just give you my feelings on the infectious disease side. The little ones seem to be really asymptomatic. When my 8 year old had it, I was really surprised as he didn't even have a runny nose. He gave it to his 13 yo sister and she had symptoms. But he did not give it to the rest of us. After the positive test we of course took precautions.

From my experience the little ones have the same viral load but don't seem to spread as easily unless they are really yelling. That matches what we encountered. The little fellow was frightened by a storm the night before we tested him. That evening he climbed into bed with us and slept most of the night in our bed and did not infect us. We tested him that next morning (it was our Thanksgiving holiday and we were testing our holiday dinner bubble). He also spent time in my car for 2-3 days before we tested him and I also was not infected. My 17 yo even picked him up one day from outdoor soccer camp and she didn't get it. Obviously once we found him positive, we quarantined and stoped all activities for 14 days (this was last fall so 14 days was the rule).

He gave it to his sister prior to our testing since they were home together during our fall break and were playing and fighting over video games. The 17 yo was home babysitting the whole time and she never got it.

We frequently tested so we tracked the whole infection course of both kids and verified that we were negative.

At that time only my 17 yo was vaccinated (she got the real virus in the trial, while my wife and I initially had the placebo).

Anyway, my feelings is have fun and enjoy the kids and if worried wear a mask. We all wore masks in the house during our "hot zone" adventure and kept the windows opened and fans moving air around. We did just fine.
Medical conclusion, saline might work just as well as the vaccine. Tell Donald, he can share it with the world, oh hang on, he probably canít.

More seriously, good information as always. Although I suspect windows open, and fans on, is more pleasant in Louisiana than Glasgow in January.
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