[Lloydy1980]

Hi all,
I'm looking to change out the suspension on my tuned 330bhp f31 330d LCI, I absolutely love the performance but the handling has always been lacking, the steering feels vauge and the car wallowy in the corners which spoils the drive.
I've recently swapped jobs which means I drive 115miles each way once a week through some of the most amazing roads in the country so thought I'd take the plunge.
I don't want the vehicle to go any lower, (its already sat perfectly), its on 20s and the front spoiler already touches the driveway so don't want any issues.
I want something I can just swap out without a headache.
I'd like camber adjustment as it feels as though the front wheels don't have enough camber and you can almost feel the tyres riding on the outer edge during cornering. (as opposed to going from a cambered position to flat)

The BCs therefore seemed like a good option as they come with the camber plates (which are a fortune if brought elsewhere separately).

I probably won't have the car for much longer than 18 months so don't want to spend a fortune, just something that makes a noticeable difference.

Also, what would be the best alignment settings once the coilovers have been fitted (as if I take to a local 4 wheel alignment centre they will use BMWs figures).

Advice welcomed.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

Hi all,
I'm looking to change out the suspension on my tuned 330bhp f31 330d LCI, I absolutely love the performance but the handling has always been lacking, the steering feels vauge and the car wallowy in the corners which spoils the drive.
I've recently swapped jobs which means I drive 115miles each way once a week through some of the most amazing roads in the country so thought I'd take the plunge.
I don't want the vehicle to go any lower, (its already sat perfectly), its on 20s and the front spoiler already touches the driveway so don't want any issues.
I want something I can just swap out without a headache.
I'd like camber adjustment as it feels as though the front wheels don't have enough camber and you can almost feel the tyres riding on the outer edge during cornering. (as opposed to going from a cambered position to flat)

The BCs therefore seemed like a good option as they come with the camber plates (which are a fortune if brought elsewhere separately).

I probably won't have the car for much longer than 18 months so don't want to spend a fortune, just something that makes a noticeable difference.

Also, what would be the best alignment settings once the coilovers have been fitted (as if I take to a local 4 wheel alignment centre they will use BMWs figures).

Advice welcomed.

Why go coilovers if you like your ride height? Quality suspension components will ride better than cheap coilovers. Note that KW coilovers would be better than BCs, but you are only keeping the car 18 more months.

Based on your statements, I suggest:

Koni Special Active Dampers
Also replace rubber bits like spring perches

For steering improvement:
Monoball Front Upper Control Arms
Front Strut Tower Brace

Camber Plate Comparisons:

Hope this helps?

[Lloydy1980]

Thank you for the reply

Forgot to mention I do have a front strut brace in place. (helped but not enough).

I was thinking coilovers as I just wanted to swap out the old with the new save messing with spring clamps etc and wanted to have the option to adjust the height (incase just replacing the springs for instance would lower the car which I didn't want).

Can I use the konis with the standard springs? (I don't mind if the ride is harder from standard), just need it to handle like it should.
Are the upper arms you mention just the same as OEM but with a more solid inner bushing vs the rubber version? Will these remove the requirement for camber plates etc?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

Thank you for the reply

Forgot to mention I do have a front strut brace in place. (helped but not enough).

I was thinking coilovers as I just wanted to swap out the old with the new save messing with spring clamps etc and wanted to have the option to adjust the height (incase just replacing the springs for instance would lower the car which I didn't want).

Can I use the konis with the standard springs? (I don't mind if the ride is harder from standard), just need it to handle like it should.
Are the upper arms you mention just the same as OEM but with a more solid inner bushing vs the rubber version? Will these remove the requirement for camber plates etc?

The Koni Special Active dampers work beautifully with stock springs. Their technology was developed with McLaren. It uses separate valves tuned for different road frequencies so it acts like a sport damper on curves and a comfort damper on rough roads. The ride is so much better than stock in every way.

Monoball bushings are like solid bushings in that they reduce the tolerance to improve steering precision. But solid bushings increase Noise Vibration and Harshness to the cabin, while monoballs do not.

I can't say whether you will feel that you still need camber adjustability. I can only tell you that I have both of the above. I don't feel that I need camber adjustment. I have square summer performance Michelin PS4S tires which I rotate front to back. They handle great and have worn absolutely evenly.

[Lloydy1980]

Thanks again for the response, just been googling the konis and can get the set for just a shade over £500 so may just go with those, guess only the Fronts will require a bit more work as the rear springs are separate.

Thanks again, can't wait to see what improvements they offer 👍

[Lloydy1980]

Out of interest, do you know of any stiffer springs that don't drop the ride height from M Sport height?

[Ennoch]

BC BR's are entry level coilovers but are decent enough quality in that they work reasonably well and are reasonably reliable. They're a lot better than the true no-name chinesium ones but far from the best. They also have the advantage that they don't compromise spring rate or travel as you lower, but the stock spring/damper offerings are a bit of a miss as they tend to be overly harsh as they up the spring rates to compensate for a lack of damper control. If you care to dig deeper they're pretty easy to re-shim but I suspect that might be a bit away from what you're after. For UK roads I always found coilovers to be lacking in travel on the Imprezas but my mate's 335d with the AC Schnitzer coilovers handled pretty amazingly once he'd corner weighted it and got the stance right to dial out the inherent understeer in the stock car. I also thought it rode better than the stock setup too to be honest.

I'd either go for some upgraded springs and dampers, or higher end coilovers but wouldn't bother with the middle ground of low end coilovers as they tend to offer the worst of both worlds. BR's also corrode like mad in the UK with all the damp and salty roads throughout winter. If you're handy with the spanners then perhaps you could look at going for something like the ACS coilovers and then re-install the stock stuff when it comes to sell the car? You'd still get good money for the ACS stuff when it came to sell, especially if you built it up with plenty of marine grease and Dynax UC covering everything (it comes off easily enough with petrol).

As to dampers I used the old Koni FSD dampers on my Octavia vRS many years ago which were basically the same tech as the SA's and they're good dampers but I'm honestly not sure if they're going to give what you want as they were a nuanced improvement rather than a night and day increase in sportiness, and that was against cheap end Skoda items. The yellows are a far sharper option but on the two cars I've had them on, my old Vectra ST200 and my Impreza, the damper curves are a little light on compression and are rebound only adjustment. That is nitpicking though, they are good. Whether that is the same curve they go with on the BMW will be for someone else to answer, but for sportiness they are definitely a good option - the Vectra design is over 20yrs old now and the Impreza spec possibly more, but on the Scoop they are still one of the best options for fast road use out there. You could also use the opportunity to swap the bump stops for something to help balance the car in corners; usually with a stiffer rear stop and something shorter and softer at the front which has the effect of increasing the rear spring rate in corners (without introducing linkage from an excessively stiff rear bar), reducing understeer.

The arms Johnung mentioned are spherical bearing items which increase harshness on the road as there is nothing in there to dial out the road surface imperfections that rubber does a great job of isolating. Tengocity is in the process of removing his I believe due to this harshness, and he's on Scottish roads which are likely to be quite similar to your local tarmac. I have not tried them myself but Meyle HD items have been mentioned on here before as having uprated solid rubber bushes fitted, a far better solution for road use IMO, particularly on British roads. I'd also avoid poly bushes as they tend to deform under loads whereas uprated rubber doesn't, and indeed increases in spring force the harder it's compressed which helps keep things in place without additional harshness.

[Lloydy1980]

Thank you for the response, I'm so confused as to what I need to get, everybody says different things and hard to determine what will work, it's a lot of money and work for something that may or may not get me the results I want.

I just want it to be the height it's at already but handle as it should and not like a jelly.

Has anyone used the Bilstein B14's?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

Out of interest, do you know of any stiffer springs that don't drop the ride height from M Sport height?

I suspect that just changing the dampers out for Koni Special Actives will provide what you want without a spring change.

To answer your question:
FaRKle! has posted a wealth of information about F3x springs. Check out his stuff. You will need to look at the white tags on your stock front and rear springs. Find the two letter code that indicates exactly what springs were installed on your car. His posts explain how it works. If you really need stiffer springs that maintain stock ride height then you may be able to find a set of used stock BMW springs with a two letter code that fits your needs.

Also consider Eibach springs which are about 10% stiffer for more control without being as harsh as other aftermarket springs. Typically Eibach's have a mild drop. They provide the estimated drop for each car model which I found to be accurate on my car.

Hope this helps!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

BC BR's are entry level coilovers but are decent enough quality in that they work reasonably well and are reasonably reliable. They're a lot better than the true no-name chinesium ones but far from the best. They also have the advantage that they don't compromise spring rate or travel as you lower, but the stock spring/damper offerings are a bit of a miss as they tend to be overly harsh as they up the spring rates to compensate for a lack of damper control. If you care to dig deeper they're pretty easy to re-shim but I suspect that might be a bit away from what you're after. For UK roads I always found coilovers to be lacking in travel on the Imprezas but my mate's 335d with the AC Schnitzer coilovers handled pretty amazingly once he'd corner weighted it and got the stance right to dial out the inherent understeer in the stock car. I also thought it rode better than the stock setup too to be honest.

I'd either go for some upgraded springs and dampers, or higher end coilovers but wouldn't bother with the middle ground of low end coilovers as they tend to offer the worst of both worlds. BR's also corrode like mad in the UK with all the damp and salty roads throughout winter. If you're handy with the spanners then perhaps you could look at going for something like the ACS coilovers and then re-install the stock stuff when it comes to sell the car? You'd still get good money for the ACS stuff when it came to sell, especially if you built it up with plenty of marine grease and Dynax UC covering everything (it comes off easily enough with petrol).

As to dampers I used the old Koni FSD dampers on my Octavia vRS many years ago which were basically the same tech as the SA's and they're good dampers but I'm honestly not sure if they're going to give what you want as they were a nuanced improvement rather than a night and day increase in sportiness, and that was against cheap end Skoda items. The yellows are a far sharper option but on the two cars I've had them on, my old Vectra ST200 and my Impreza, the damper curves are a little light on compression and are rebound only adjustment. That is nitpicking though, they are good. Whether that is the same curve they go with on the BMW will be for someone else to answer, but for sportiness they are definitely a good option - the Vectra design is over 20yrs old now and the Impreza spec possibly more, but on the Scoop they are still one of the best options for fast road use out there. You could also use the opportunity to swap the bump stops for something to help balance the car in corners; usually with a stiffer rear stop and something shorter and softer at the front which has the effect of increasing the rear spring rate in corners (without introducing linkage from an excessively stiff rear bar), reducing understeer.

The arms Johnung mentioned are spherical bearing items which increase harshness on the road as there is nothing in there to dial out the road surface imperfections that rubber does a great job of isolating. Tengocity is in the process of removing his I believe due to this harshness, and he's on Scottish roads which are likely to be quite similar to your local tarmac. I have not tried them myself but Meyle HD items have been mentioned on here before as having uprated solid rubber bushes fitted, a far better solution for road use IMO, particularly on British roads. I'd also avoid poly bushes as they tend to deform under loads whereas uprated rubber doesn't, and indeed increases in spring force the harder it's compressed which helps keep things in place without additional harshness.

The VAC monoballs bushings that I recommend absolutely do NOT increase harshness to the cabin. I have had them installed for years. At this point there are many others who have installed them as well.

Literally no one who I have recommended them to has come back with a Noise Vibration Harshness (NVH) complaint.

The only change that I noticed at all was not NVH to the cabin. It was the pleasant addition of road feel to the driver's hands through the steering wheel like a European sports sedan should have. Stock steering felt more like an old General Motors car where you can't feel the road.

These front control arm monoball bushings get rid of the vague F3x steering and provide a tremendous improvement in steering precision.

This is a case where whatever bench theory you have about these particular monoballs transmitting harshness to the cabin is dead wrong. This isn't like we are having a difference of opinion on competing theories. In science when you have a theory but it doesn't hold up to practical testing, then the theory gets scrapped or significantly revised because it's obviously faulty. You are speculating about the effect this part will have on the car based on faulty reasoning, because that's not what happens when they are installed and the car is driven.

Sorry, I'm usually not this adamant but there's no grey area here. It's black and white.

[Lloydy1980]

That's fantastic, thanks again for taking the time to respond, greatly appreciated 👌

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by johnung

The VAC monoballs bushings that I recommend absolutely do NOT increase harshness to the cabin. I have had them installed for years. At this point there are many others who have installed them as well.

Literally no one who I have recommended them to has come back with a Noise Vibration Harshness (NVH) complaint.

The only change that I noticed at all was not NVH to the cabin. It was the pleasant addition of road feel to the driver's hands through the steering wheel like a European sports sedan should have. Stock steering felt more like an old General Motors car where you can't feel the road.

These front control arm monoball bushings get rid of the vague F3x steering and provide a tremendous improvement in steering precision.

This is a case where whatever bench theory you have about these particular monoballs transmitting harshness to the cabin is dead wrong. This isn't like we are having a difference of opinion on competing theories. In science when you have a theory but it doesn't hold up to practical testing, then the theory gets scrapped or significantly revised because it's obviously faulty. You are speculating about the effect this part will have on the car based on faulty reasoning, because that's not what happens when they are installed and the car is driven.

Sorry, I'm usually not this adamant but there's no grey area here. It's black and white.

Is it black and white though? The most dogmatic person on these is you, almost every other person fitting them says there has been an increase in hashness. Now, whether that harshness is a problem is down to the individual user. If you have smooth roads or track the car then hands down that additional harshness will be worth it. But over here in the UK we have narrow roads which are chewed up at the edges, have lots of pockmarks, square edges and general roughness. Going too stiff on things reduces the speed you can carry, even if it feels 'sportier', whatever that may be. Most people suggest that square edges transmit more into the cabin, which tallies closely with my experience of fitting aftermarket spherical joints to suspension in road cars. Rubber absorbs impacts. Too much and you get wooliness but go to something that can absorb virtually zero (bar the spherical bearing's lining) and you end up with harshness. Now maybe the OP will be happy with the increase, maybe he won't find it intrusive, but to say that he won't notice anything is misleading.

Maybe I take you wrong, but it seems that there is a stock list of responses you give to everyone regardless of the car's use, and that leads me to be distrusting of said advice. It's not personal, and maybe it's down to a distrust of the hard sell. There are lots of people on forums who dispense advice but little is worth listening to; I include my own in that, all I can offer is my experience with as much detail as I can muster to help anyone reading it know whether it's likely to be applicable or useful to them. I know far from everything on these cars, but as I've said before, cars are ultimately cars and the basics transfer across most genres pretty well.

To the OP, if you go for these arms then I hope they work for you, and my comments/thoughts are meant in good faith to help you decide what you want. If you want something that's just a little better than stock but still on the OEM+ end of the spectrum then maybe the SA dampers will work well for you. If you want something that is a demonstrable improvement that you notice every time you jump in then go for something along the lines of Koni Sport Yellows. If you want something that is likely on the harsher end of the spectrum then go coilovers (most purchasers want stiff, so that's what the manufacturers produce) as these will certainly give that, and if you're willing to have that then 100% go for the arms, they will give better steering, there's no doubt about it. The problem is that the far ends of the scale of harsh and comfy are easy to get to, it's the grey bit in the middle that's harder to get right as everyone's idea of a good shade of grey is different. For my local roads I want suspension travel and vertical wheel control and I am willing to give up precision for that. If I was doing any tracking, autocross or had smooth roads locally then I'd be willing to give up travel for precision. But I don't, so I'm not.

[Ennoch]

I just found this link from a few years ago while digging about for something else; https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1662711

Farkle has given some potentially extrapolated plots of the SA vs Sport dampers which actually shows the compression as being very even between them, the only difference is the rebound which is slightly higher. Personally I like a fair bit of rebound damping in a chassis but not to the extent of packing down into the bump stops, and do find the Sports to be quite rebound heavy, at the expense of not enough compression. But, given the graphs, I suspect that ride might not be as dissimilar on the BMW spec dampers as I thought. I do still however think that the Sports would allow you to dial in the car a little better, but not to the extent as if you spent some serious money and went for dual adjustable items.

[Lloydy1980]

👌

[Lloydy1980]

Rears on, took no time at all 👌. Impossible without a pass through socket to hold the centre from spinning

[Lloydy1980]

I've recently fitted the Konis all round (only got round to doing the Fronts yesterday as I was waiting for the spring rubbers to arrive. (I've not driven in anger yet, just round the block to back sure everything is OK).

I know the inner Bush on the control arm (the fluid filled one) has a reputation for being very poor but didn't realise how poor until yesterday when I just tested the flex by levering it with an open ended spanner, it moves as if it is made from toffee!

I've now got the idea that I might swap the inner bush out for a monoball one (Millway Motorsport) and I've also seen that the lower track control arm can be swapped out for the F80 version. My question is,

Will this be a compatible hybrid setup or would I also need to use the F80 arm that uses the fluid filled inner Bush (appreciate on the F80 version it would be awesome tougher Bush anyhow).

Regards
Chris

[gameson]

Lol you are in the same boat as me. I m thinking of changing upper with vac monoballs and lower with f80.

If you are changing upper with millway, you have to press them in. It’s cheaper solution as the bush is cheaper, but considering you have to pay for labor to press it in, after you pay everything, wouldn’t it better to just buy the whole set that comes with the arm and new ball joint?

If you are doing everything yourself including press, then yeah cheaper to just buy the bushing.

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

I've recently fitted the Konis all round (only got round to doing the Fronts yesterday as I was waiting for the spring rubbers to arrive. (I've not driven in anger yet, just round the block to back sure everything is OK).

I know the inner Bush on the control arm (the fluid filled one) has a reputation for being very poor but didn't realise how poor until yesterday when I just tested the flex by levering it with an open ended spanner, it moves as if it is made from toffee!

I've now got the idea that I might swap the inner bush out for a monoball one (Millway Motorsport) and I've also seen that the lower track control arm can be swapped out for the F80 version. My question is,

Will this be a compatible hybrid setup or would I also need to use the F80 arm that uses the fluid filled inner Bush (appreciate on the F80 version it would be awesome tougher Bush anyhow).

Regards
Chris

[Lloydy1980]

I can get them pressed in free so from that point of view it's fine, just wondered if you are able to use the original front arm (with the monoball) and the longer lower m3 version? I believe the m3 front arm might be a tad longer? (as if not, when using the F80 lower it might pull the wheels forward in the arches)

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

I can get them pressed in free so from that point of view it's fine, just wondered if you are able to use the original front arm (with the monoball) and the longer lower m3 version? I believe the m3 front arm might be a tad longer?

I started by installing the VAC Upper Control Arms and running them with the stock lower control arms. Maybe a year later I also changed the lowers to VAC monoball bushings.

I can't see any reason on a daily street car to consider changing lower F30 control arms to F80 control arms. They are not the same arm. Guys get enamored with wanting to say that they installed M3 parts on their F30, but this is not an upgrade! Stick with the stock F30 lowers. They don't have the big fluid filled bushing that leaks on the upper control arms.

[gameson]

Originally Posted by Lloydy1980

I can get them pressed in free so from that point of view it's fine, just wondered if you are able to use the original front arm (with the monoball) and the longer lower m3 version? I believe the m3 front arm might be a tad longer? (as if not, when using the F80 lower it might pull the wheels forward in the arches)

Check my link below. Somebody said in the youtube comment that you can use powerflex urethene for the bushings

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=21

And in the youtube comment, farkle said that’s a possibility or an f80

[johnung]

Originally Posted by gameson

Check my link below. Somebody said in the youtube comment that you can use powerflex urethene for the bushings

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=21

And in the youtube comment, farkle said that’s a possibility or an f80

Powerflex are not monoballs. It's a stiffer track type bushing that will transmit a lot more Noise Vibration Harshness to the cabin.

You are taking FaRKle! 's comment that an F80 control arm is a possibility to mean that it's a recommendation. It's probably out of context. In that conversation he may have been talking about possibilities for a track car.

He's one of the guys that I talked to before I bought the VAC monoball control arms for my street performance F30. He and one of his buddies had tested them.

[Lloydy1980]

So can I use a F80 lower arm (with or without a monoball) alongside the original non m version upper arm(with a monoball)?

Or if I DO change to the F80 lower must I get the F80 upper arm also)?