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      02-02-2019, 05:25 AM   #1
TQMp5135
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Heel and Toe

I thought I'd start a thread on heel and toe downshifting for those that are interested.

Do you use the heel and toe downshifting technique in your F3X 6MT?
Do you prefer relying on the automatic rev match feature?
How do you perform your heel and toe technique?
Have you installed any pedal mods to assist with the technique?
Where do you like to practice? How long did it take you to master?

I'll start off with how I perform it:
I keep my heel on the floor between the throttle and the brake and pivot between the two. With my foot almost vertical but slightly pointed to the left, I press the brake with the left side of the ball of my foot, press the clutch and shift gears. At the same time I pivot my foot to the right while keeping my heel on the floor to catch the throttle with the right side of the ball of my foot, revving it to the required rpm. I start to release the clutch as I am revving the engine in order to catch the revs at the right point when the clutch bites.

Things I find difficult:
- Placing my foot in exactly the right place on the brake especially if the road is rough - sometimes I put too much foot on the brake and then can't catch the throttle.
- Rev matching at lower revs (as you have to rev a smaller amount to match the next gear down and this is harder).
- Performing this technique with partial brake pressure (as the foot has to pivot more to catch the throttle due to the distance between the pedals being greater).

Any heel and toe pros out there with any tips?
Advice specific to the F3X pedal configuration would be great!
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      02-02-2019, 06:10 AM   #2
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What reason is there to use this technique on the road? Getting it wrong can be disastrous.
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      02-02-2019, 06:16 AM   #3
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Stupid way to drive.
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      02-02-2019, 06:44 AM   #4
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It's part of the fun part of driving a manual, although I suck at it.
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      02-02-2019, 06:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig-SM View Post
What reason is there to use this technique on the road? Getting it wrong can be disastrous.
For fun. Must be honest I wasn't expecting that response.

I also don't have the rev matching feature on my 6MT so if I am to rev match I must use this technique. Reasons are:
1. To stop the rear wheels locking up while downshifting at high rpm
2. For mechanical sympathy on the clutch.
3. Smoother driving when pushing on.

What is your preferred method?
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      02-02-2019, 07:32 AM   #6
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I was taught it as part of advanced driving course for evasive driving.
If you’re locking the rear end up whilst down shifting, you’re driving like a tit. If you need to drop more than gear try reading the road better
If you want to be easier on the clutch then learn how to double clutch but again not needed.
If you want to drive smoother take the IAM test instead.
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      02-02-2019, 08:54 AM   #7
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I'm going YouTube this, I have no idea what anyone is taking about.
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      02-02-2019, 09:11 AM   #8
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Interesting, I wasn't aware you could heal toe modern cars, I believe car manufacturers decided to retard the throttle when you push the accelerator and brake at he same time, due to the number of crashes from incidents where people have pressed both by accident whist trying to do an emergency stop.

Used to do it in my old Porsche but my Leon Cupra wouldn't let me and I'm certain I've tried the same in my BM and failed. Could be wrong though! Prevents you from cleaning your disks in the same manner after going through deep water!
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      02-02-2019, 09:18 AM   #9
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To clarify, I am talking about braking in preparation to take a corner, while simultaneously shifting from say 3rd (2500 rpm) to 2nd (3500rpm) in order to be at 3500 rpm when you exit the corner so you can enjoy the feeling of more power on the way out. All this is done in a safe and controlled way whilst driving under the speed limit.

In my experience, simply lifting the clutch out and making the engine jump from 2500 to 3500 is a bit jerky even if done slowly. That's why heel toe is needed.

Here is a video:
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      02-02-2019, 09:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike330iLux View Post
Interesting, I wasn't aware you could heal toe modern cars, I believe car manufacturers decided to retard the throttle when you push the accelerator and brake at he same time, due to the number of crashes from incidents where people have pressed both by accident whist trying to do an emergency stop.

Used to do it in my old Porsche but my Leon Cupra wouldn't let me and I'm certain I've tried the same in my BM and failed. Could be wrong though! Prevents you from cleaning your disks in the same manner after going through deep water!
That's interesting. My F32 435i doesn't do that. I am able to blip the throttle while on the brake without any intervention from the car. The thing is a lot of manual cars now have the automatic rev match feature, so heel and toe is not needed. However, mine is 2014 and doesn't have that. Would be awesome if it did but to be honest I am rather enjoying learning how to heel toe .
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      02-02-2019, 09:26 AM   #11
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I think it's a nice technique if you can master it, I never did though.
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      02-02-2019, 10:07 AM   #12
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Replaced by the ball and finger technique
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      02-02-2019, 10:17 AM   #13
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Fdl code the revmatch out (fem_body tcm_startlock_clutch -> nicht_aktiv ; tcm_startlock_brake -> aktiv)
Delete the CDV
Delete the clutch pedal return spring
Set sport mode to chassis only to avoid the tricked up throttle
Drive like a normal car, great gearbox


The first two replies .. please go buy an auto

Last edited by YuminNuman; 02-02-2019 at 10:22 AM..
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      02-02-2019, 10:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
I think it's a nice technique if you can master it, I never did though.
Yes, a good skill, as is double clutching. Learned them both years ago when both techniques were useful for fun, or to get some difficult boxes to smooth out a bit.

Used to 'heel and toe' in my Cortina GT and Dolly Sprint. Biggest difficulty to accommodate, in my experience, is pedal positions and size of shoes (or boots). Some cars were so poorly set out, you had a problem getting your foot in the right position.

To the OP, "practice" is the key.
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      02-02-2019, 10:54 AM   #15
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This is one of the main things I miss about not having a manual transmission car. A good heel and toe downshift is one of the best parts of driving. Trying to hit an apex in an automatic makes me feel like that old woman in the Wendy's commercial - "Where's the beef??". It just ain't the same...
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      02-02-2019, 11:01 AM   #16
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I've never had a manual F3x so can't add much to that part of the discussion, but I do heel/toe in the Boxster. It's perfectly set up for it, so no adaptations required. It's an absolute pleasure to do it in a car with such well judged control weights and pedal positions, along with instant throttle response.

There's lots of reasons to do it. It's enjoyable, and raises the level of interaction you have in the the driving process, and when driving fast makes for smoother progress. For high performance driving then it has lots of benefits, for example allowing for extra engine braking in heavy braking situations.

It's taken years to become something natural I do, but now it's just a very satisfying part of driving a sporty manual car.
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      02-03-2019, 04:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQMp5135 View Post
To clarify, I am talking about braking in preparation to take a corner, while simultaneously shifting from say 3rd (2500 rpm) to 2nd (3500rpm) in order to be at 3500 rpm when you exit the corner so you can enjoy the feeling of more power on the way out. All this is done in a safe and controlled way whilst driving under the speed limit.

In my experience, simply lifting the clutch out and making the engine jump from 2500 to 3500 is a bit jerky even if done slowly. That's why heel toe is needed.

Here is a video:
The throttle is blipped whilst simultaneously breaking, this to me is where the issue is with the engine retarding. I'll have a play today to see if mine does. Doubt it though as it has auto rev match which is probably included now because of the throttle, break restriction.
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      02-03-2019, 04:05 PM   #18
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I was taught heal and toe by my father when learning to drive. To get the perfect downshift was absolute bliss and a thing I really miss.

As fun as it was, the roads have changed since then (I'm only 45) and I chose to go with automatic transmission and have never really looked back.

Heal and toe was also useful when setting off on an incline. Another thing that's not necessary will hill climb assist, or whatever it's called.
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      02-03-2019, 04:24 PM   #19
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Heel and toe keeps the car balanced much better.

Takes a bit of practise but done right is very rewarding.

Not that hard to master but can be made harder or easier with the right footwear.

Trainers or shoes work for me, boots that cover your ankle make it harder to roll your foot.
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      02-03-2019, 05:26 PM   #20
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After a misspent youth playing to much football with not enough physio, my right ankle does not have the range of movement.. :
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      02-07-2019, 08:13 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintstream View Post
I was taught heal and toe by my father when learning to drive. To get the perfect downshift was absolute bliss and a thing I really miss.

As fun as it was, the roads have changed since then (I'm only 45) and I chose to go with automatic transmission and have never really looked back.

Heal and toe was also useful when setting off on an incline. Another thing that's not necessary will hill climb assist, or whatever it's called.
That's interesting. I had never really thought of that application. I used to either use the handbrake or just be quick with lifting of the brake and engaging the clutch. Hill assist used to catch my off guard when I first got the car, making me think that I had reached biting point on a hill when I hadn't….

Used to it now though.
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      02-07-2019, 08:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzer View Post
Heel and toe keeps the car balanced much better.

Takes a bit of practise but done right is very rewarding.

Not that hard to master but can be made harder or easier with the right footwear.

Trainers or shoes work for me, boots that cover your ankle make it harder to roll your foot.
What technique do you use for heel toe? Do you lift your heel off the floor and rotate over or do you keep your heel on the floor and pivot your foot? I've tried both but the latter is a lot more stable and makes it easier to maintain constant brake pressure for me.

Another thing… heel toe is a lot easier when pressing the brake hard (easier to maintain brake pressure/ brake pedal closer to the throttle pedal), but of course I find myself performing it with mid to strong brake pressure most of the time which makes it a lot harder.
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