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      10-02-2020, 09:57 PM   #1
MrElussive
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Why have BMW and other luxury automakers moved from DCT to traditional AT?

I wonder why the M3, M4, M5, and M8 have automatic transmissions instead of DCT. I see that Audi, Mercedes and even Porsche (for the Panamera) also now use AT exclusively in their RWD sedans and sedan-based coupes.
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      10-02-2020, 11:02 PM   #2
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Cost and the fact the average buyer prefers the "smoothness" of an automatic.

DCT > autos generally for performance, but the ZF autos are fairly good transmissions. BMW is clearly going for a more casual non purist G82 so we need to hope they keep the DCT on the G87.
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      10-03-2020, 02:07 AM   #3
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What do you think of the position of the P button kind of down on the shifter handle? It seems like its in kind of an awkward place. I used it some on the M8's at track day and it certainly doesn't seem like its in a natural place to reach. Unless the car automatically goes into park when you turn it off, sort of like the DCTish.
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      10-03-2020, 02:29 AM   #4
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https://www.fool.com/amp/investing/2...s-q2-2020.aspx

They believe spending is too high...more funds shifted from internal combustion projects over to EVs
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      10-03-2020, 04:08 AM   #5
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#savethemanuals
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      10-03-2020, 04:27 AM   #6
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ZF8HP has more gears, better fuel economy and fewer emissions in the same size package while being cheaper. For car manufacturers it's a no brainer.
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      10-03-2020, 05:37 AM   #7
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I've said this in other threads. My experience with BMW's implementation at least on my 135i is that no DCT belongs in a daily driven car. I have had my fair share of low speed drive ability issues with lurching and hesitation. Some don't have this problem with theirs. Others do. Just do a search on DCT lurching, stalling, hesitation in the 1 series sub forum. I found a fix but it appears to only be temporary which is to reset the trans and engine adaptations. The first time it was done, I enjoyed about 2 years of the trans behaving properly. Recently, I've had to have it done again.

I also point to the whole Ford Focus debacle where there is a class action law suit against Ford for knowingly putting out a faulty DCT transmission. And it's anecdotal, but my friend's experience with her brand new Kia Soul GT with a DCT. At 8k miles, she had to have her entire trans replaced. And searching on a Kia forum, there has been other complaints about the DCT going back to when Kia first introduced it in the Soul.

If I was given a choice between the DCT or ZF, I'd pick the ZF hands down all the time. Well, I would pick a 6 MT before any of the other choices but I didn't have that option in my situation.
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      10-03-2020, 06:43 AM   #8
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I's say it is cost and buyer demographics.

In the case of BMW, they are moving more towards mass market for the M line up and less towards catering to the niche of enthousiats and track rats. It's all about profits and seizing the opportunity.

DCT is lighter, has less rotational inertia, less loss, more direct shifting and better feel than 8AT. 8AT is smoother at lower speeds and is cheaper due to volume distribution.

If you look at the higher end sport car market, they all have DCT, there is reason for that. Even MB is putting a DCT in their upper end AMG GT. Porsche have DCT in their 911 and Cayman/Boxter, so do Ferrari, Lamborghini, Buggati. Of note, MB have never used DCT in their mid-size and large sedans and coupes.
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      10-03-2020, 06:45 AM   #9
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Agree with the comments so far.

DCT driveability is poor for a daily driver.

The ZF8HP is a world class transmission and delivers sporty and comfortable driving.
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      10-03-2020, 07:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Cost and the fact the average buyer prefers the "smoothness" of an automatic.

DCT > autos generally for performance, but the ZF autos are fairly good transmissions. BMW is clearly going for a more casual non purist G82 so we need to hope they keep the DCT on the G87.
Sorry guys, but purists will always choose a car with 3 pedals. You take that away and AT vs DCT is irrelevant any more.
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      10-03-2020, 07:37 AM   #11
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ZF is just cheaper to use in most cases rather than using and updating an in-house design, and will likely receive less complaints from customers since its a smoother transmission. While most M/AMG customers are enthusiast, I'm willing to be a good percentage are just regular people who want the best of the best, or badge shopping, who then complain about the transmission or other qualities that make these cars more raw and athletic.

Interestingly Benz (for AMG's) doesn't use a traditional automatic, or a dual clutch (except for A/CLA/GT) but rather a multi-clutch transmission.
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      10-03-2020, 07:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Agree with the comments so far.

DCT driveability is poor for a daily driver.

The ZF8HP is a world class transmission and delivers sporty and comfortable driving.
And that is why I chose a manual fM3 or my daily driving.

I have driven my friend's new 2020 M5 and the A/T transmission is flawless.
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      10-03-2020, 08:19 AM   #13
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Donít have poor experiences with dct. I must have ďthe oneĒ
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      10-03-2020, 11:46 AM   #14
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I didn't own some of the earlier DCT cars but the few I had between 2015 and now never seemed jerky. I honestly couldn't tell that they weren't a normal AT.
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      10-03-2020, 11:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Sorry guys, but purists will always choose a car with 3 pedals. You take that away and AT vs DCT is irrelevant any more.
That's how I feel. To me it's either a manual or an automatic, that's it. I really don't care what kind of automatic it is. The Tesla basically has no gears, the corolla I believe is a CVT transmission and the truck I think has a standard transmission. Makes no difference to me which one I'm driving they are all just automatics.

I remember when the MKV GTI came out. I believe this is when VW first started introducing DCT and I think they were one of the first to come out with it. Anyways they had all this hype over it and I ended up buying a DCT GTI. It was my first automatic car at that point... sold it within a year because it was still an automatic even being a DCT and having paddles and all that crap.

Now maybe is if it was a car I took to the track all the time or something like that then maybe at those levels it would matter more what kind of automatic I had.
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      10-03-2020, 12:24 PM   #16
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Yeah the DCT in my F80 isnít the smoothest. I donít really have passengers complain but honestly I kind of prefer it had a ZF-8 some days. Just not always in a racer mood everyday.

The ZF-8 in my previous Ď18 SQ5 was excellent. It still offered really fast shifts and drove exceptionally smooth.
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      10-03-2020, 07:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach550 View Post
I didn't own some of the earlier DCT cars but the few I had between 2015 and now never seemed jerky. I honestly couldn't tell that they weren't a normal AT.
This is my experience also. Switched from manual to DCT. I have been very happy with the switch.
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      10-03-2020, 09:07 PM   #18
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My 2020 M4 DCT is smoother than the 2017 M4 DCT I had. They probably improved the programming and shift logic over the years.
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      10-04-2020, 08:08 AM   #19
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I have two N52 powered vehicles. A manual 128i and an F10 528i (2011 only...get one while you can).

The ZF 8 speed is the first, and so far only, auto transmission that I actually really like. it is perfectly suited to the 5 series. Shifts are like magic. Imperceptible except by change in exhaust tone. Whoever did the programming nailed it. Far as I can tell they seem to wear well. We did a fluid swap at around 90k and it was still somewhat translucent. no weirdness in the the pan.

BMW uses the transmission locked in manual mode in the M235i race car.




If my 528i ever got into a total loss accident I'd swap the drivetrain to an auto 128i in a heartbeat.


I also have a ZF8 in my landrover. no issues.

My 10 speed ford/chevy trans in my F150 is good....but not a ZF.
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      10-04-2020, 08:30 AM   #20
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While not a fan of the BMW early 4-cylinder turbo engines, they do work even better with the 8-speed auto trans than the normally aspirated 6-cylinder did. The newer "30" 4-cylinder turbo engine works even better on all counts and many test-driving it mistake it for a 6-cylinder.
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      10-04-2020, 10:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Cost and the fact the average buyer prefers the "smoothness" of an automatic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Agree with the comments so far.

DCT driveability is poor for a daily driver.

The ZF8HP is a world class transmission and delivers sporty and comfortable driving.
I don't have time to check all the old threads about DCT vs. Slushbox AT's but I'm pretty sure complaints of lack of smoothness or driveability of BMW DCT's were very few if not negligible, certainly insufficient to now raise it as an issue and rationalization for its seeming demise.

On the contrary, any slight jerkiness felt was attributed the superiority of the DCT's direct gear connection (no torque converter) for better road feel that enthusiasts want and real enthusiasts would never buy a slushbox, so they swore.

I'm still driving a manual, so no dog in this fight, but I see this as another data point of BMW abandoning its enthusiast base moving towards the center all in pursuit of a greater profits. Nothing wrong with that but just call it what it is.
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      10-04-2020, 10:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
ZF8HP has more gears, better fuel economy and fewer emissions in the same size package while being cheaper. For car manufacturers it's a no brainer.
itís also very reliable. and you can add 40% tq without fucking up the transmission. while DCT is clearly more fun, ZF8 should be the modders choice.
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