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      08-31-2016, 07:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Like I said, no professinal racing driver will think I respect him so much, I think I'll let him pass.
Its competition. they'll try to do anything within what they can get away with. F1 history is full of that. Remember suzuka '89?
There's your respect. 2 of the most respected drivers in history, ever, but having no respect for eachother when on the track.
there's no such thing as respect between rivals when they're on the track. its win or loose.
And there's a big old asterisk that everyone remembers what happened. To respect and to like are two different things. If Senna thought Prost was a push over, he wouldn't have taken him out. Also, if they didn't respect each other, and you are right, then you have proven my point as to why respect is so important.

No one said anything about letting anyone pass because they respected them.

The problem here is there is a pattern. An VES is doing dangerous things at ~200mph.

Again, give me 1 example. Just 1 where people not respecting you is advantageous. Especially in a team sport.
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      09-01-2016, 03:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523 View Post

Again, give me 1 example. Just 1 where people not respecting you is advantageous. Especially in a team sport.
I just gave you that example. Its not how you think. respect or no respect, senna did what he wanted, so it doesnt matter. Thats my point.
Words like respect are used for us, people at the side, the media etc. on the track its just results. They do what they think they'll get away with to achieve maximum results. thats why suzuka happend.
And of course f1 is a team sport, but the other drivers arent in his team are they?
Sure verstappen needs the respect from his mechanics, sponsers and team bosses otherwise he'll get fired. but he gets that respect by winning, not by being a push over on the track.
A racing driver needs to take every oppertunity to beat his opponents. thats why 3 cars were side by side in that corner. no one showed respect to eachother and just wanted to be first through. and that went wrong.
Thats how racing is done.
And like I said, if something was done that was absolutely wrong, someone would have gotten a penalty. and because that didnt happen.....
If they showed eachother respect, the referee's/competition management wouldt be necessary. but all drivers get penalties at one point or another. Lack of respect. Trying to get away with things. breaking the rules. But no penalties in this incident...so a legit move. no one gave in so they crashed all 3. all 3 are to blame (matter of fact, no penalties, guess no one showed enough respect whatever that means)

but I guess its human to think one knows better than the person actually performing it (or than the referees for that matter). VES got into F1 as the sum of all his actions and achievements. Did you get there too? No? then how do you know what's best for him?

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      09-01-2016, 03:58 AM   #69
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      09-01-2016, 08:50 AM   #70
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It’s the exact same technique he used at rather lower speed on Räikkönen at Turn One at the Hungaroring – and very much like the infamous chop that Michael Schumacher gave Mika Häkkinen in 2000, also on the Kemmel straight.

The sporting regulations offer inadequate guidance on this sort of move but none should be needed; what Verstappen did at Spa on Sunday was unconditionally lethal and invited carnage. There should be no place for it – and the message to him in response should have been similarly unequivocal: a black flag. Come in, switch off the engine, get out the car; your racing for the day is done.
I sure hope F1 doesn't turn into this type of sport. Black flag, race is over for the driver? Maybe overreaction is what is needed? I also don't see most journalists being any more qualified than most of the people here to give an opinion, so they watch racing and write about it, great.

If I watch American football and someone does something questionable, the ref sees it, they watch the play in slow motion many times over and decide no penalty was needed, isn't the ref or the rules the real problem? Obviously they decided it wasn't bad enough to penalize him and it was within the rules. What's the point of these refs or judges if they watch an action and do nothing, then we blame the person not them?
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      09-01-2016, 09:41 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I just gave you that example. Its not how you think. respect or no respect, senna did what he wanted, so it doesnt matter. Thats my point.
Words like respect are used for us, people at the side, the media etc. on the track its just results. They do what they think they'll get away with to achieve maximum results. thats why suzuka happend.
And of course f1 is a team sport, but the other drivers arent in his team are they?
Sure verstappen needs the respect from his mechanics, sponsers and team bosses otherwise he'll get fired. but he gets that respect by winning, not by being a push over on the track.
A racing driver needs to take every oppertunity to beat his opponents. thats why 3 cars were side by side in that corner. no one showed respect to eachother and just wanted to be first through. and that went wrong.
Thats how racing is done.
And like I said, if something was done that was absolutely wrong, someone would have gotten a penalty. and because that didnt happen.....
If they showed eachother respect, the referee's/competition management wouldt be necessary. but all drivers get penalties at one point or another. Lack of respect. Trying to get away with things. breaking the rules. But no penalties in this incident...so a legit move. no one gave in so they crashed all 3. all 3 are to blame (matter of fact, no penalties, guess no one showed enough respect whatever that means)

but I guess its human to think one knows better than the person actually performing it (or than the referees for that matter). VES got into F1 as the sum of all his actions and achievements. Did you get there too? No? then how do you know what's best for him?
That was not an example where being not-respected was an advantage. That was an example of Senna being unprofessional to win. Not his shining moment. Also your argument is that Senna did not respect Prost. Turned out badly for Prost. Good argument for my side, but you have not brought a valid point for lack of respect being an advantage.

Again - an example where no one respecting you is advantageous. Please.

Your argument that because the FIA did not penalize, it is not wrong is also invalid. Penalties do not define ethics. It is also well accepted that the FIA is also in the wrong here.

No personal attacks please. Simply facts. Please provide some to back up your argument.

The actions of VES are dangerous. Ask any professional F1 driver. He has stated that his actions, including possibly wrecking a competitor are deliberate. Respect brings sponsors. Sponsors bring money. Money is required to race. Examples: Maldonado dropped after Ven dropped funding. Constant talk of Perez's backers.

Nobody wants their car wrecked. That is a fact.

Please drop the assumptions and "I think this and that"
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      09-01-2016, 09:43 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I sure hope F1 doesn't turn into this type of sport. Black flag, race is over for the driver? Maybe overreaction is what is needed? I also don't see most journalists being any more qualified than most of the people here to give an opinion, so they watch racing and write about it, great.

If I watch American football and someone does something questionable, the ref sees it, they watch the play in slow motion many times over and decide no penalty was needed, isn't the ref or the rules the real problem? Obviously they decided it wasn't bad enough to penalize him and it was within the rules. What's the point of these refs or judges if they watch an action and do nothing, then we blame the person not them?

I blame the FIA more than VES. By not penalizing, they are reinforcing that it is OK to break the rules.

I saw a similar article with a good explanation of why there isn't written rules against this. It has historically been kept in line due to RESPECT.

Another PRO-VES article (comparing him to Senna and Schumacher), but saying that he is overstepping his bounds:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/op...battle-811665/

"....You have to admit, that’s very Senna-like. In the famous Jackie Stewart TV interview, I admired the way Ayrton defended the indefensible of Suzuka 1990 – even though I thought what he did that day was the worst thing he did in his entire career."

Does VES want every racing to be "the worst thing" in a hall of fame career?
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      09-01-2016, 10:12 AM   #73
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Sorry to be the mad poster, but GuidoK - maybe we are just looking at this different?

Driving OVERLY aggressive might win you a race, but I am looking at VES having a 10-15+ yr career. I agree with you that during any given race, you don't want to give up a spot. But if you are slower, and weave in front of someone at 200MPH, you might not live to race another day. Isn't that what we all want? Constant competitive racing.

VES seems to be losing support of many people by his actions. He has a job that he gets paid to do. Don't you want people to continue to love him? Race by race he might win, but my argument is that it is bad for his overall career and the sport in general (safety-wise).
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      09-01-2016, 11:25 AM   #74
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The problems with Verstappen don't appear that different than what often occurs in pro sports. You get a young, very talented person come up who sometimes does as many stupid things as brilliant things. Generally, the organization that hired him will have a certain amount of patience hoping that the scale tips quickly and strongly in favor of the good things out numbering the bad. The one critical difference here is that mistakes in this sport don't just cost points, but can and have cost lives. If he continues to demonstrate poor decision making at high speeds I think he'll be replaced. The consequences are too serious and you can only push the odds so much.
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      09-01-2016, 01:23 PM   #75
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^ which begs the question, was Max promoted too soon?
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      09-01-2016, 02:12 PM   #76
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Would somebody please tell Max that the next time he hits somebody, to please take out the Mercedes cars so we can at least have one competitive race this year? (Ok second one, look how good the Spanish GP was!) Low speed corner would be perfect so no possibility of injury, kthx.
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      09-01-2016, 02:28 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Would somebody please tell Max that the next time he hits somebody, to please take out the Mercedes cars so we can at least have one competitive race this year?
I was actually thinking if he had not done this to the two Ferrari's and the Mercedes instead. There wouldn't be any uproar about his driving or at least not as much.
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      09-01-2016, 02:31 PM   #78
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Vettel apologises to Raikkonen for Turn 1 crash at Spa

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...at-spa-814159/


Alonso: Verstappen did nothing wrong at Spa

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/al...at-spa-814253/


Verstappen: I won't change my approach to racing

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...racing-814205/
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      09-01-2016, 02:34 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
I was actually thinking if he had not done this to the two Ferrari's and the Mercedes instead. There wouldn't be any uproar about his driving or at least not as much.
Lol yep!
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      09-01-2016, 02:43 PM   #80
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I like VES... I can appreciate his hunger for victory and I'm sure RedBull can as well since they kicked Kvyat to TR. However, I do think he is a bit too aggressive sometimes and doesn't have the experience to hold back. In any case, the FIA's ruling to do nothing about the incident at turn 1 says a lot since now he is going around saying that if he did something wrong he would have got a penalty. We all know how the FIA and penalty go. SMH

If there is any team on the grid that I can't stand, it's the cars in red... it's quite satisfying to see RB and MB run them over.
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      09-01-2016, 04:30 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
^ which begs the question, was Max promoted too soon?
This question was raised at the very beginning of his F1 career.
We have to wait and see how he continues to conduct himself on and off the track in the near future.
Will he respond to the justified criticism the right way and make necessary adjustments, or will he continue to drive like a mad man to justify his new preliminary nickname MadMax?
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      09-01-2016, 05:51 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523 View Post
Sorry to be the mad poster, but GuidoK - maybe we are just looking at this different?

Driving OVERLY aggressive might win you a race, but I am looking at VES having a 10-15+ yr career. I agree with you that during any given race, you don't want to give up a spot. But if you are slower, and weave in front of someone at 200MPH, you might not live to race another day. Isn't that what we all want? Constant competitive racing.

VES seems to be losing support of many people by his actions. He has a job that he gets paid to do. Don't you want people to continue to love him? Race by race he might win, but my argument is that it is bad for his overall career and the sport in general (safety-wise).
My point is that as long as no penalty is given, its apparantly allowed. Over the years the competition management has become much more strict than in the early years, so in this case they choose to not give out penalties. why? because it was no ones single fault.
And I didnt say having no respect was an advantage, I said it didnt matter on the track. All professional racing drivers are opportunistic as hell and will grab a chance when they get it. Thats how you get to that level. And I'm sure that such scenarios are set out in detail in advance with the team bosses (the drivers employer), because it can result in either getting a podium spot with more propability to crash or to go home 6th or 10th (or lower) with a few point and little media coverage. There are without doubt meetings about how much risk to take and such.
But that is something completely different that what you said earlier and when something like this incident was done to you, you'd get back at him later at a training session or so for petty revenge. I'm sure you'll get fired for that, the team boss yelling at you for risking multimillion dollar hardware without any chance on result just for some petty grief.
And you also said something about in team fighting. There were no team mates, and 'possible future team mates' are now still straight competitors. the 'enemy' on the track. They are there to get maximum result. Not to make friends or 'gain respect' It's that simple. so you do what you can get away with rule wise and what your team boss or sponsor wants. Because if you dont, the other one will. thats why there were 3 cars in the corner.
If he really was driving too dangerously or caused too much damage, the FIA would give him a penalty. Obviously that can still happen but as of now they dont. What drivers say on tv is of no importance, thats just playing the media. Maybe hoping or trying to put RBR in a bad daylight so they slow Verstappen down. The FIA has the power/mandate to give penalties and who am I to say they dont have the knowledge or expertise. because that's basically what you're saying. You're angry that they didnt black flagged him. because you know better than them.
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      09-01-2016, 06:13 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
My point is that as long as no penalty is given, its apparantly allowed. Over the years the competition management has become much more strict than in the early years, so in this case they choose to not give out penalties. why? because it was no ones single fault.
And I didnt say having no respect was an advantage, I said it didnt matter on the track. All professional racing drivers are opportunistic as hell and will grab a chance when they get it. Thats how you get to that level. And I'm sure that such scenarios are set out in detail in advance with the team bosses (the drivers employer), because it can result in either getting a podium spot with more propability to crash or to go home 6th or 10th (or lower) with a few point and little media coverage. There are without doubt meetings about how much risk to take and such.
But that is something completely different that what you said earlier and when something like this incident was done to you, you'd get back at him later at a training session or so for petty revenge. I'm sure you'll get fired for that, the team boss yelling at you for risking multimillion dollar hardware without any chance on result just for some petty grief.
And you also said something about in team fighting. There were no team mates, and 'possible future team mates' are now still straight competitors. the 'enemy' on the track. They are there to get maximum result. Not to make friends or 'gain respect' It's that simple. so you do what you can get away with rule wise and what your team boss or sponsor wants. Because if you dont, the other one will. thats why there were 3 cars in the corner.
If he really was driving too dangerously or caused too much damage, the FIA would give him a penalty. Obviously that can still happen but as of now they dont. What drivers say on tv is of no importance, thats just playing the media. Maybe hoping or trying to put RBR in a bad daylight so they slow Verstappen down. The FIA has the power/mandate to give penalties and who am I to say they dont have the knowledge or expertise. because that's basically what you're saying. You're angry that they didnt black flagged him. because you know better than them.
What I meant was that he might end up doing such a thing, and I could see a driver taking a penalty to get back at another driver. It happens in every sport besides golf and pro fishing.

There are teams. Ferrari is a Team. RBR is a Team. Merc is a team with in-fighting and it is costing them (though not enough to put them out of the title).

All of the experts and drivesr except VES have said that his blocks are unsafe. Doesn't need to come from me.

They don't need a black flag. He doesn't even need a penalty. Someone just needs to say "Son. Stop it or we will have to do something."

It seems that everyone except the FIA (because VES is good for ratings due to people liking him pre-antics) and VES are saying the blocks were dangerous.

Next time you are out on the highway, try having a buddy cut you off at 100mph. Imagine doubling that and let me know how it works out.
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      09-01-2016, 06:16 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
^ which begs the question, was Max promoted too soon?
They changed the rules so that no one as young can get into f1 ever again.

Basically guaranteed that his "young records" will stay forever. Which is pretty cool in his shoes. I mean, knowing that you will probably be the youngest winner ever indefinitely. That's pretty cool!
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      09-01-2016, 06:19 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Vettel apologises to Raikkonen for Turn 1 crash at Spa

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...at-spa-814159/


Alonso: Verstappen did nothing wrong at Spa

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/al...at-spa-814253/


Verstappen: I won't change my approach to racing

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...racing-814205/
Appreciated, but the Alonso title sounds like he supports VES. He said the chop wasn't technically against the rules, but that VES was wrong in Hungary. Getting back to the same point. He just needs to calm down a bit.

He needs to learn that getting passed isn't the end of the world. It's re-passing and being in the lead in the end that matters. If you are faster, you will find the lead. No need to put people in danger because you are upset they are faster.
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      09-01-2016, 06:47 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I sure hope F1 doesn't turn into this type of sport. Black flag, race is over for the driver? Maybe overreaction is what is needed? I also don't see most journalists being any more qualified than most of the people here to give an opinion, so they watch racing and write about it, great.

If I watch American football and someone does something questionable, the ref sees it, they watch the play in slow motion many times over and decide no penalty was needed, isn't the ref or the rules the real problem? Obviously they decided it wasn't bad enough to penalize him and it was within the rules. What's the point of these refs or judges if they watch an action and do nothing, then we blame the person not them?
At least one of the stewards at each course is a former pro-driver. I can almost guarantee that given the huge costs in F1, if a driver was given a black flag for the stupid and dangerous shite that Verstappen pulled on Kimi at close to 200 mph last Sunday, that it would only happen once. The 'ripple' effect amongst the drivers and teams that the FIA was actually going to take another driver's safety into consideration when another driver is acting like a complete twat, would stop the dangerous blocking immediately. And maybe save someone's life to a far greater extent than any damn 'Halo' device.
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      09-01-2016, 09:41 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
At least one of the stewards at each course is a former pro-driver. I can almost guarantee that given the huge costs in F1, if a driver was given a black flag for the stupid and dangerous shite that Verstappen pulled on Kimi at close to 200 mph last Sunday, that it would only happen once. The 'ripple' effect amongst the drivers and teams that the FIA was actually going to take another driver's safety into consideration when another driver is acting like a complete twat, would stop the dangerous blocking immediately. And maybe save someone's life to a far greater extent than any damn 'Halo' device.
Bish
The answer was nothing happened so the former pro-drivers decided it wasn't even worth a time penalty and not even close to a black flag.
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      09-01-2016, 09:46 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The answer was nothing happened so the former pro-drivers decided it wasn't even worth a time penalty and not even close to a black flag.
Well anyone who isn't blind can look at the video and tell that's BS.

Of course Max is Belgian, and where was the race again?

Bish
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