[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by F30ed

Cant agree with that.
Higher torque would mean higher stress on the parts where it is applied to: transmission, clutches, gears, diff, driveshaft...
Chain just turns intake and exhaust camshafts, which have same resistance (torque need) regardless if the engine idles or produces 500 lb/f at that moment.

I see your point but a tune or any added performance will increase stress on all the internal components. More timing, spark advance, fuel, etc translates to faster engine acceleration, hence the pull on those chains will be increased.

Think of taking a bicycle, go from a kid turning the sprockets to say a motor, the overall friction is the same, the power needed to turn the cranks are the same but now the power source delivering the energy to turn those components has increased. See where I'm going with it?!

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

I see your point but a tune or any added performance will increase stress on all the internal components. More timing, spark advance, fuel, etc translates to faster engine acceleration, hence the pull on those chains will be increased.

Think of taking a bicycle, go from a kid turning the sprockets to say a motor, the overall friction is the same, the power needed to turn the cranks are the same but now the power source delivering the energy to turn those components has increased. See where I'm going with it?!

Yes, but the bicycle chain is what delivers power to the wheels by spinning the gears and thus the wheels. No power is sent through the timing chain. Only the components that are responsible for making power or delivering it to the wheels are liable to have increased wear due to a tune. Rods, pistons, turbo, fuel pumps, and plenty of other things will experience increased wear. Timing chain components, oil pump, water pump and other things with similar functions will not. Like I said before, if the engine revved faster or higher, that would effect the timing chain, but tunes do not make it do that.

[Billfitz]

I agree, though the mere fact that someone does add a tune speaks to the likelihood that their driving habits aren't exactly conservative. Still, it would take definitive data that does not seem to exist to prove what factors make timing chain failure more likely.

[Linc0909]

Power is most certainly put through the timing chain.. the increased boost causes increased combustion, that sends the piston down at a higher rate and that rotational force is transferred to the chain which turns the cams and oil pump. Your initial arguments states that you could see that increase being transferred to the trans, well the trans is attached through way of the torque converter (or clutch) to the same crank. Why would there be an increase in power distribution to the trans on the back of the engine but not to the timing chains on the front??!!

Again looking at a bicycle chain, there is a certain amount of slack in the chain until you start to crank the pedal sprocket and the chain will stiffen. This is also true on an engine. I've built more engines than I honestly can remember. That's why chain tensioners need to be able to compress to make room for tension during engine acceleration and expand for slack during deceleration.

[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I agree, though the mere fact that someone does add a tune speaks to the likelihood that their driving habits aren't exactly conservative. Still, it would take definitive data that does not seem to exist to prove what factors make timing chain failure more likely.

I don't think we'll ever get a definitive number since there are millions of N20 engines in existence and the number of failures are quite low in comparison to numbers built and then figure how many of those few failures are there tuned examples. But most certainly, if there is a weak link in the timing components and you add power to the engine, that power is transferred through all the rotating assemblies. And over all, the failure is NOT the chain but the guide. They change the chains due to abnormal wear that is caused when the guide breaks and the chain begins rubbing on another component.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

Power is most certainly put through the timing chain.. the increased boost causes increased combustion, that sends the piston down at a higher rate and that rotational force is transferred to the chain which turns the cams and oil pump. Your initial arguments states that you could see that increase being transferred to the trans, well the trans is attached through way of the torque converter (or clutch) to the same crank. Why would there be an increase in power distribution to the trans on the back of the engine but not to the timing chains on the front??!!

Again looking at a bicycle chain, there is a certain amount of slack in the chain until you start to crank the pedal sprocket and the chain will stiffen. This is also true on an engine. I've built more engines than I honestly can remember. That's why chain tensioners need to be able to compress to make room for tension during engine acceleration and expand for slack during deceleration.

I don't know what to say other than... that's just not how an engine works. The wear is increased on the transmission because it bears the power of the engine in it's transferring of that power to the wheels. Again, the timing chain's movement is not a function of the power or torque output by the engine, it is a function of engine speed, which is unchanged when tuned/modified.

I'll go back to one of my original examples... why haven't you ever heard of people installing beefier timing belts (same function as our chain) on modified cars? Because they don't break... (don't confuse with supercharger belts, supercharged cars throw belts because of smaller pulleys and changing spin rates).

Any of our more technically/mechanically inclined members feel free to jump in

[Linc0909]

There most certainly are up graded timing chains on the market. I had a double roller on the 327 I built for my first Camaro I owned in high school and I put a billet one in my GTO when I changed the oil pump. As far as belts, your vast majority of engines running timing belts are old school Hondas/Acuras and the extra 40-50 hp you get from one of them is still well under 300hp so the belt can handle that. But with engines like the Toyota 2JZ engines, tuners like Titan Motorsports use up graded timing belts for they are running 1,000 hp engines.

Just a quick search I found multiple companies producing/selling high performance timing belts. Now granted I am not suggesting the stresses on the chain would equal that to the output to the trans but, again, if you are tuning an engine to put out more hp there will certainly be additional stress on the chain and the other components in the timing module.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

There most certainly are up graded timing chains on the market. I had a double roller on the 327 I built for my first Camaro I owned in high school and I put a billet one in my GTO when I changed the oil pump. As far as belts, your vast majority of engines running timing belts are old school Hondas/Acuras and the extra 40-50 hp you get from one of them is still well under 300hp so the belt can handle that. But with engines like the Toyota 2JZ engines, tuners like Titan Motorsports use up graded timing belts for they are running 1,000 hp engines.

Just a quick search I found multiple companies producing/selling high performance timing belts. Now granted I am not suggesting the stresses on the chain would equal that to the output to the trans but, again, if you are tuning an engine to put out more hp there will certainly be additional stress on the chain and the other components in the timing module.

I'm sure your built 327 was revving higher and faster than it would stock though, same can be said with the 1,xxx whp 2JZ's... And your GTO had a different oil pump, so I would expect you to replace the chain because the pump is entirely different.

Either way, I think we've both made our case at this point Both sides have been presented, so at this point I think the people can make a decision on their own when they read this thread.

[BettyFkinCrocker]

Originally Posted by rjdnyy224

I'm sure your built 327 was revving higher and faster than it would stock though, same can be said with the 1,xxx whp 2JZ's... And your GTO had a different oil pump, so I would expect you to replace the chain because the pump is entirely different.

Either way, I think we've both made our case at this point Both sides have been presented, so at this point I think the people can make a decision on their own when they read this thread.

In nearly every post he makes, he spews misinformation and inaccuracy at best. Anyone who who has followed one or two threads he's attempted to contribute to knows to take his words with a large grain of salt.

[FAM3LYCAR]

Model: 2014 328i
Build: 09/2013
Mileage: 65k
Timing Chain Status: No problems
Oil Changes: 10k mile interval since new
Stop/Start Status: First owner used stop/start regularly from new until 45k miles. Coded off after 45k miles
Additional Details: No drivetrain mods

Thanks for setting up this poll and thread for info. I'm interested in seeing how this plays out over time.

[EddieZ2]

Originally Posted by RMachuca3d

15 328i n26. Build date 2014-11-20. 69009 miles pretty much stock.

Feels like im driving a ticking time bomb, literally lol.

Same here. Uneasy feeling....

[QUiKSR20]

Model: 328i 6MT RWD 2013 Prod. date 8/2012
Mileage: 99k miles ( tuned since 60k miles ), mostly highway
Timing Chain Status: Have oil pump whine until warmed up then gone ( started at 80k )
Oil Changes: 10-15k when under scheduled maint ( before i purchased ) I change 5-6k

I have a 2013 ( 8/12 build date ) that has 99,500 miles, Its been tuned since 60k miles when I picked it up used. The car came with all BMW Maint up to date unfortunately that means the stock 10-15k mile oil changes up until that point. I developed the "Oil Pump Whine" around 80k miles but once the oil is warm it goes away. So far the car revs super smooth and makes no other noises other then the wastegate rattle that plagues all turbo BMWs it seems. From the research ive done on this board and youtube etc, You can have the whine and still not get the chain issue, Or replace the chains/guides/pump and have the whine come right back. I have zero metal on metal noises and never found metal shavings in my oil or the filter. I hope with using LiquiMoly Ceratec every 20k and oil changes every 5-6k the car keeps on running, I just paid it off and looks brand new in & out still. I dont think this problem is that widespread as we think, These forums are only an extremely small portion of the cars on the road.

[danielkel]

Model: 320i 6MT
Build: 4/2013
Mileage: 110.000 km
Timing Chain Status: Timing and oil chain changed at 110.000 km.
Oil Changes: Done by BMW. Don't now how often that is 24k km?
Stop/Start Status: I don't know if the first owner used it till 84k km. I don't use it.
Additional Details: Not tuned when it happend

[Etto]

Update: my '12 F30 N26 ended up needing a timing chain replacement just as I was nearing the warranty end. Don't have the car til tomorrow but ~58,xxx miles. ( My tuner said there's only a tiny bit of play but he got me a warranty replacement as preventative measure )

[328isquick]

Bought my 2013 328i xdrive with 60k miles about 3 weeks ago. Timing chain already was already replaced at 54k. Went to dealership where work was done to get a little more background/details on the work done. Actually feels good knowing it's just recently been replaced. Runs great and have already added a jb+ (set at medium...I think that's maybe 2+psi now?) and have had my own custom exhaust/muffler changed as well. I am not able to click on the poll to show my timing chain has been replaced.....

[kalalau]

My timing chain was just replaced in my 2014 328 XI 67K miles by the dealership. My CPO warranty ended the following week. Extremely happy that the chain was replaced before the warranty was up. Are there any issues to watch out for after the repair?

[wilbur_the_goose]

curious - how much would an Independent typically charge for a pre-emptive replacement?

[dassub]

Model: 2014 328i x Drive
Build: 09/2013
Mileage: 70,000 km (43k miles)
Timing Chain Status: No problems
Oil Changes: 10,000km interval (or once a year if less)
Stop/Start Status: Almost never enabled, unless I accidentally push the button.

Is my build date in the troublesome range? I saw a document with older dates, then one with a much larger scope that apparently includes it.

[fluke]

Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose

curious - how much would an Independent typically charge for a pre-emptive replacement?

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=24905163

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by fluke

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=24905163

At this point with 100k miles, Ill just continue with the 6k mile oil changes with liqui moly and use ceratec every 3rd change and if it sounds like its getting worse then just get the service done at an indy..

Makes no sense to sell the car because of this issue, My 2013 Sport looks brand new in and out and is completely paid off and drives like new aside from the oil pump whine when oil is cold ( completely gone when warmed up ).

[jsouth]

Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose

curious - how much would an Independent typically charge for a pre-emptive replacement?

Mine was $2700 US earlier in the summer.

[BMW_Mischa]

Companies (non BMW dealer) in The Netherlands start at 1250,- euro's, so something like 1400,- US dollars. All original BMW components, both chains and everything related replaced.

Now i understand why my brother keeps whining about the prices in the US...