[MrManor]

Funny thread this

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by MrManor

Funny thread this

I blame the drivers who were silly enough to park next to car that caught fire. If only they went on a defensive parking course this whole thing could have been avoided.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

I do find it interesting when middle management will argue and argue to keep something in place that's clearly a poor action, while senior management are either comfortable enough in their role or clearly have the greater autonomy to overrule something daft. Whether it's down to feeling empowered to make the decision, or being more feeling more constricted with performance for bonuses etc I don't know but I do find more junior managers are rarely the ones to just say 'WTF is that? We need to do something'.

Yep, [lack of] empowerment, blame culture and incentivisation are key root causes. The first two in particular have very destructive effects over the long term. Incentivisation - well you need to think of the downsides you're incentivising as well as the upsides.

[MrManor]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I blame the drivers who were silly enough to park next to car that caught fire. If only they went on a defensive parking course this whole thing could have been avoided.

It’s not the original content which is of course is completely serious and wholly unfortunate for those involved it’s the responses about the usual EV debate and then hotel algorithms etc

Anyway back on track, I’ve not read a great deal about the actual incident but was there a sprinkler system or are they not able to put out EV / hybrid battery fires anyway?

I’d imagine people who have an integrated garage at home would be quite reluctant to house their EV / hybrid in one, however I’d imagine that few garages are used for their intend purpose anyway?

Some of these fires are nasty but it’s not just EV / hybrid that cause them I think the one in Liverpool a few years back was an older Land Rover.

Must be a JLR thing

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Kendo67

I think in this case it is just blatant profiteering . very much doubt there is a "code" for a vehicle catching fire and leaving 1500 vehicles unusable at an airport multi-storey and 3000+ people needing to hire a car within a relativity short period of time.

They were handed a golden ticket when peoples back are against the wall and they took it , some say it is good business sense others would see it as yet another rip off.

K

It just won't be as human as you think it is. As others have said, there will be complex algorithms and automation behind it. At its simplest, as predicted supply of car type A runs short, raise prices.

Almost certainly provided by vendor software used across much of the industry, that has been 'tuned' for the business needs.

To change that, first a human has to decide to want to. That may be an empowered individual or it may take time, meetings, approvals. Then the people with the configuration skills, who may be business or technical folk, have to swing in to make the change.

Then there is the complexity behind the human decision of, ok we know we have 200 cars on site. That fulfils normal demand, and many of our regular and corporate customers are incoming (they will know their data). We now weigh the risk of damaging those long term relationships or damaging the reputation and upsetting largely one off customers in an emergency.

Finally, the tab for this is largely picked up by insurers. Does a car hire company take a voluntary profit hit to save insurance companies money?

Luton Airport SHOULD have done something to get people home. Buses to major cities etc.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MrManor

It’s not the original content which is of course is completely serious and wholly unfortunate for those involved it’s the responses about the usual EV debate and then hotel algorithms etc

Anyway back on track, I’ve not read a great deal about the actual incident but was there a sprinkler system or are they not able to put out EV / hybrid battery fires anyway?

I’d imagine people who have an integrated garage at home would be quite reluctant to house their EV / hybrid in one, however I’d imagine that few garages are used for their intend purpose anyway?

Some of these fires are nasty but it’s not just EV / hybrid that cause them I think the one in Liverpool a few years back was an older Land Rover.

Must be a JLR thing

Apparently no sprinkler system. To be fair, they are pretty expensive to install and even more painful to maintain, especially when they are a few decades old, and the insurance cost impact of adding / removing is negligible.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

I suspect it will be claim off your own policy and then look for someone to reimburse which may take years - but as and when I know something I'll let you know....

what i can say is disclaimer of liability signs are great to bat claims away initially but they dont stand up very well in court....

Which insurer bears the cost of rebuilding the car park ? The owner/operator or the insurer of the vehicle which triggered the fire ?

I assume its the owner/operator, with the (presumably very high) cost of the premium simply built in to the car parking charges.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Which insurer bears the cost of rebuilding the car park ? The owner/operator or the insurer of the vehicle which triggered the fire ?

I assume its the owner/operator, with the (presumably very high) cost of the premium simply built in to the car parking charges.

I am sure they will be trying to recover it - first thing will be looking at the lease to see who is responsible for what...do they have a maintaining and repairing lease or just a short term use lease?

Suspect the third party cap on an individuals personal car policy wont cover the extent of damage here...

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by MrManor

It’s not the original content which is of course is completely serious and wholly unfortunate for those involved it’s the responses about the usual EV debate and then hotel algorithms etc

Anyway back on track, I’ve not read a great deal about the actual incident but was there a sprinkler system or are they not able to put out EV / hybrid battery fires anyway?

I’d imagine people who have an integrated garage at home would be quite reluctant to house their EV / hybrid in one, however I’d imagine that few garages are used for their intend purpose anyway?

Some of these fires are nasty but it’s not just EV / hybrid that cause them I think the one in Liverpool a few years back was an older Land Rover.

Must be a JLR thing

I've read from a post by an engineer who for the past 30 years has studied fires in relation to garages and his recommendation was never to park the EV inside the garage.
If it catches fire 700 kg of lithium ion probably guts out things much more faster and with savagery than 70 litres of petrol can.

An EV lithium traction battery burns hotter than an ICE vehicle. A burning ICE car may reach 815 degrees celsius, an EV up to 2760 degrees celsius.
https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-fire-key-findings

[MrManor]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I've read from a post by an engineer who for the past 30 years has studied fires in relation to garages and his recommendation was never to park the EV inside the garage.
If it catches fire 700 kg of lithium ion probably guts out things much more faster and with savagery than 70 litres of petrol can.

An EV lithium traction battery burns hotter than an ICE vehicle. A burning ICE car may reach 815 degrees celsius, an EV up to 2760 degrees celsius.
https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-fire-key-findings

Jesus

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I've read from a post by an engineer who for the past 30 years has studied fires in relation to garages and his recommendation was never to park the EV inside the garage.
If it catches fire 700 kg of lithium ion probably guts out things much more faster and with savagery than 70 litres of petrol can.

An EV lithium traction battery burns hotter than an ICE vehicle. A burning ICE car may reach 815 degrees celsius, an EV up to 2760 degrees celsius.
https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-fire-key-findings

Wow. That's frightening

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Apparently no sprinkler system. To be fair, they are pretty expensive to install and even more painful to maintain, especially when they are a few decades old, and the insurance cost impact of adding / removing is negligible.

I guess the decision to include a system like that is financial, but to me it's a situation where unless either financially or legally forced to, a company is unlikely to 'do the right thing'. However, how much water flow would actually be required in a sprinkler to control an EV fire, let alone put it out? This absolutely isn't a dig at EV's, more that there are clearly things which need to perhaps be tweaked to suit the different needs that they clearly have in some situations given the amount of energy stored in them, irrespective of whether they're charged or not!

[Cootie]

In this case the initial claims will go through the individual vehicle’s insurance companies. They will then seek to recover their costs from the originating vehicle’s insurer. Given the originating vehicle here is essentially new and within warranty, that insurer will likely seek recompense from JLR on the basis of it being caused by a manufacturing fault. Same flow will exist for the airport insurer in respect the building damage.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Cootie

In this case the initial claims will go through the individual vehicle’s insurance companies. They will then seek to recover their costs from the originating vehicle’s insurer. Given the originating vehicle here is essentially new and within warranty, that insurer will likely seek recompense from JLR on the basis of it being caused by a manufacturing fault. Same flow will exist for the airport insurer in respect the building damage.

The cap on the individuals motor policy 3rd party liability is likely to be £1.2m so unless they can get JLR to pay, there are going to be alot of costs met by the other car (and property) owners...

(according to Google, the £1.2m may be a bit out of date but unlikely to be over £5m...)

[speedski]

Give you an update on our situation as we get ready to head back to the UK for those who are interested...

Aviva, our insurance, has got organised and made a few decisions - excess is not required for a claim due to the nature of this incidence - this was low for us, but some people would have had high excesses so its good news.

They have also decided this will not impact no claims bonus (ours was protected, but for those that weren't its good).

We have a courtesy car agreed for early next week, so this is a change to the position 48hrs ago -it will run indefinitely until they get more site access/info.

They will refund costs for getting home (up to £150 on our policy).

Their own assessors cannot access the site, so they don't anticipate having any information on the cars/site/problem till middle of next week.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by speedski

Give you an update on our situation as we get ready to head back to the UK for those who are interested...

Aviva, our insurance, has got organised and made a few decisions - excess is not required for a claim due to the nature of this incidence - this was low for us, but some people would have had high excesses so its good news.

They have also decided this will not impact no claims bonus (ours was protected, but for those that weren't its good).

We have a courtesy car agreed for early next week, so this is a change to the position 48hrs ago -it will run indefinitely until they get more site access/info.

They will refund costs for getting home (up to £150 on our policy).

Their own assessors cannot access the site, so they don't anticipate having any information on the cars/site/problem till middle of next week.

That sounds pretty impressive by Aviva, hope you have a good flight back and the car situation gets resolved as quickly as possible...

[speedski]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

That sounds pretty impressive by Aviva, hope you have a good flight back and the car situation gets resolved as quickly as possible...

Thanks - indeed it seems the insurance companies are trying to look somewhat shiny out of this - one girl already got hers written off by Hastings Direct - based on what logic I really don't get.

[dazzapb]

Rumours online suggest that floors fire extinguisher was empty - if true that might put liability back on the car park owner?

Still no word beyond a (PHEV?) diesel Land Rover as the cause. I can see the mail and the sun hoping and praying it was an EV to suit their narrative. I’m sure they will make it up anyway.

[agentorange]

Originally Posted by speedski

Thanks - indeed it seems the insurance companies are trying to look somewhat shiny out of this - one girl already got hers written off by Hastings Direct - based on what logic I really don't get.

Indeed, that is surprising. Normally insurance companies don't take anybody else's word for anything. Their assessor has to see and touch before they take any action. "So what if ANPR says Speedski's car is in the burned out car park. Until our bloke sees it, it isn't". Rare outbreak of common sense?

[speedski]

Originally Posted by dazzapb

Rumours online suggest that floors fire extinguisher was empty - if true that might put liability back on the car park owner?

Still no word beyond a (PHEV?) diesel Land Rover as the cause. I can see the mail and the sun hoping and praying it was an EV to suit their narrative. I’m sure they will make it up anyway.

I suspect, if true, that will form part of a class action against the car park provider, who, up to now has completely absolved themselves of anything - well apart from cancelling the parking booking of a car already in the car park and taking the full amount for the whole stay despite it happening half way through (unless they take a abnormally long to process the refund here of course).

Originally Posted by agentorange

Indeed, that is surprising. Normally insurance companies don't take anybody else's word for anything. Their assessor has to see and touch before they take any action. "So what if ANPR says Speedski's car is in the burned out car park. Until our bloke sees it, it isn't". Rare outbreak of common sense?

Turns out today they confirmed all cars are a write off and they made an offer for the car, like I said before it wasn't worth much (monetarily speaking) but the offer is well below any trader-offered car of the same age/spec so pushed the offer back for review (we're already well out of pocket through no fault here).

Also now looking for a JCW or another 128ti - the latter of which seem to be dropping in value a bit...which makes this a little easier to stomach right now.

Interestingly important note, don't keep your V5 in the car. And if you do, ensure you have a note of the VIN at home.

Reason being is the V5 was in the car, and to take the plate off I need the V5 and to get a replacement V5 I need the VIN. Currently caught in DVLA no mans land so need to speak to the 'specialist team' tomorrow on that.

[Pentland]

Originally Posted by agentorange

Indeed, that is surprising. Normally insurance companies don't take anybody else's word for anything. Their assessor has to see and touch before they take any action. "So what if ANPR says Speedski's car is in the burned out car park. Until our bloke sees it, it isn't". Rare outbreak of common sense?

The car could be cloned or have fake plates - perfect scam for free holiday parking I’d imagine. They should check VINs to ID cars if possible.

Originally Posted by speedski

Interestingly important note, don't keep your V5 in the car. And if you do, ensure you have a note of the VIN at home.

I’d have thought it common sense never to leave the v5 in the car in any circumstances

[speedski]

Yep, unfortunately it had just been serviced and the service book wallet that's usually in the house with all the docs was still in the car. Unfortunate coincidence? Yes. Stupid yes.