[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

I've just looked on the BMW website at the iX. Trying to configure one, unless they do individual paint that's like an invisibility cloak I don't think I could ever buy one. It makes the Bentayga look like a thing of beauty.

If you like things that are rare, it could be a great choice!

[KRS_SN]

my view of the ix is that
externally in black it should look good (any blue bits blackened off) in other colours not so sure due to the non body coloured black plastics around

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

I've just looked on the BMW website at the iX. Trying to configure one, unless they do individual paint that's like an invisibility cloak I don't think I could ever buy one. It makes the Bentayga look like a thing of beauty.

And you're telling me this because?

[Nibbles]

Originally Posted by Wills2

And you're telling me this because?

It's not a giant leap from the grills on the 7 series.

[gangzoom]

Wheels don't actually drop M way range that much, going from 20 to 22s on our X changed cruising range at 70mph by less than 5% if that. But in town it does make a bigger difference, and both EPA/WLTP is calculated on mainly urban with mixed cruising range so hence the drop in figures.

I don't know what the net usable battery size on the i4 is but for real life range take 5% off battery size for year 1/first 20k degredation that effects all EV packs and than another 10% off as you really don't want be running the battery down to below 10% on a road trip.

A small EV should manage 3.5 - 4 miles per kWh in summer at 70mph, and 3-3.5 miles per kWh in winter. So if you work on say 71kWh usable without going to a total stop, the worst possible range in winter will be over 200 miles giving you still 10% 'spare'.

The most important EV range figure isn't the 'best' range but worst potential range.

Just for reference our 75kWh Model X has a worst range of roughly 150 miles, and I've now done 52k miles all other the UK and France with no issues, infact we are going to drive up to Fort William in a week for a short break, and will come back down through the Yorkshire Dales, we'll end up doing about 1000 miles. 200 miles worst possible range is more than enough.

[gangzoom]

First proper 'range test' of the Ionqi is out.

Looks like Hyundai has no magic sauce when it comes to efficiency and performance. The AWD version that comes with a decent 0-60 time has a range of sub 200 miles in summer on not massive wheels.

Our Model X (2015 release date) with similar sized battery, similar 0-60 time, but more seating capacity return almost an identical range at 70mph. I think this really demonstrates how much 'progress' in range/battery technology that has been achieved in the last half a decade.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

First proper 'range test' of the Ionqi is out.

Looks like Hyundai has no magic sauce when it comes to efficiency and performance. The AWD version that comes with a decent 0-60 time has a range of sub 200 miles in summer on not massive wheels.

Our Model X (2015 release date) with similar sized battery, similar 0-60 time, but more seating capacity return almost an identical range at 70mph. I think this really demonstrates how much 'progress' in range/battery technology that has been achieved in the last half a decade.

They've pretty much halved the price for a similar level of battery tech and performance, that seems like progress. Spend more, and the extra range and performance now exists around the original price point.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

They've pretty much halved the price for a similar level of battery tech and performance, that seems like progress. Spend more, and the extra range and performance now exists around the original price point.

Our X was £71k, with base version £64k. The top spec Ionqi is over £50k.

Price is falling which is good, but overall performance/range isn't. When I bought our X an optional of a longer range X already existed, and was actually cheaper than the version on sale today which only has marginally better range.

Infact the current Plaid S has a SMALLER battery than the old 100D from 2017 but costs about £30k more!!

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Our X was £71k, with base version £64k. The top spec Ionqi is over £50k.

Price is falling which is good, but overall performance/range isn't. When I bought our X an optional of a longer range X already existed, and was actually cheaper than the version on sale today which only has marginally better range.

Infact the current Plaid S has a SMALLER battery than the old 100D from 2017 but costs about £30k more!!

Lots of increase in car prices over the period. Partly inflation driven but mainly driven by the external influencing factors that we are all aware of. I suspect a £50k Hyundai in 2021 equates to something around the mid £30ks in 2015.

[Sennen]

No real improvement in 6 plus years on battery performance/efficiency makes me think that Electric may not be the way forward for the masses.

I am not going to write Hydrogen off just yet especially now Toyota have their nose in the trough.

[DaveA]

In so many ways I think we are going in the wrong direction with electric cars right now…

When you think, whatever the motive power source of a vehicle, the energy used in pushing it around is the same, it’s simple physics… weight and air resistance and, to some extent, the rates of change of velocity… and electric vehicles simply change where we do the polluting (right now)… and how we need to generate the energy that goes into them…

Ultimately we need to reduce energy usage… So why we are building two tonne electric SUV’s and electric cars that accelerate like billio, when what we really need are cars that conserve energy, is totally beyond me…

This is an area where market cannot be allowed to be the demanding force (so, you want a two tonne SUV, well tough luck, because two tonne SUV’s are not good for energy conservation) and industry and legislation needs to step in… It’s a simple fact that we will all need to change our concepts of personal mobility moving forwards…

Personal vehicles, in order to go further on less energy, will start to rocket in price (esoteric light weight materials and fancy technology) and will (without market manipulation) become ownership things for the rich again… as they once were…

So, alongside vehicles, we need to build an efficient and useful public transportation system up again… and an efficient and energy effective system on home deliveries… It may also be that we build up rental/share systems for vehicles to work alongside public transportation..

The whole “electric only for 2030” is, in my opinion, pure politico talk, and I expect that will be rolled back in the coming years… I simply do not see enough of significance being done now to put us in a position to achieve that “promise”…

Of course, personal mobility is not the only area where change is coming…

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by DaveA

In so many ways I think we are going in the wrong direction with electric cars right now…

When you think, whatever the motive power source of a vehicle, the energy used in pushing it around is the same, it’s simple physics… weight and air resistance and, to some extent, the rates of change of velocity… and electric vehicles simply change where we do the polluting (right now)… and how we need to generate the energy that goes into them…

Ultimately we need to reduce energy usage… So why we are building two tonne electric SUV’s and electric cars that accelerate like billio, when what we really need are cars that conserve energy, is totally beyond me…

This is an area where market cannot be allowed to be the demanding force (so, you want a two tonne SUV, well tough luck, because two tonne SUV’s are not good for energy conservation) and industry and legislation needs to step in… It’s a simple fact that we will all need to change our concepts of personal mobility moving forwards…

Personal vehicles, in order to go further on less energy, will start to rocket in price (esoteric light weight materials and fancy technology) and will (without market manipulation) become ownership things for the rich again… as they once were…

So, alongside vehicles, we need to build an efficient and useful public transportation system up again… and an efficient and energy effective system on home deliveries… It may also be that we build up rental/share systems for vehicles to work alongside public transportation..

The whole “electric only for 2030” is, in my opinion, pure politico talk, and I expect that will be rolled back in the coming years… I simply do not see enough of significance being done now to put us in a position to achieve that “promise”…

Of course, personal mobility is not the only area where change is coming…

100% agree with all of this Dave.

I think the time has now come to 'properly' tax those that buy new 'status' cars.

The EV crowd can crack on all they like about saving the planet but I reckon buying a petrol VW UP today, servicing it regularly and running it into the ground over 20 years has to be more Eco Friendly than buying a gizmo loaded 2 tonne EV every 3 years.

It is virtually impossible to spot what I call a non 'status' car round here anymore, it is mainly EVs or massive 4x4s (usually driven by 1 person) and the occasional smattering of performance cars (which seem to be getting rarer).

How about bunging a one off £15k tax payable in full on delivery for any car that either either weighs more than 1.5 tonnes, has an engine bigger than 1.5 litres or exceeds 75gr/km emissions. I know that wont sit well with the majority on here that buy their cars on PCPs/Lease etc but if we are truly worried about the environment then we will have to take our medicine.

[MashinBenzin]

There certainly should be a more nuanced tax regime than the current one. Adding weight to the mix makes sense.

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

There certainly should be a more nuanced tax regime than the current one. Adding weight to the mix makes sense.

Agreed, although we probably just want to focus on overall efficiency rather than weight, displacement, co2 output etc. Could all be encapsulated by something simple to measure like miles per Joule? Could easily be applied to any car no matter what the fuel source is, both current technologies and future.

[pmgreenwood]

Osborne missed a major opportunity on car taxation when he introduced the simple £40k luxury car tax rather than a more sophisticated climate impact based taxation regime.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

There certainly should be a more nuanced tax regime than the current one. Adding weight to the mix makes sense.

I was surprised to see the Ioniq 5 weighs over 2 tons, so not far off weight of our X.

It does seem like the Koreans haven't done anything magical with EVs, the Kona/eNiro are more efficient because they are slow and relative light weight. Add in performance and some extra toys the Ioniq is no more efficient than any other equivalent EV, and at £50k not that much cheaper.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Ultimately we need to reduce energy usage… So why we are building two tonne electric SUV’s and electric cars that accelerate like billio, when what we really need are cars that conserve energy, is totally beyond me…

^^^^

This is the elephant in the room. Private vehicle selection is going in the opposite direction than what is needed, whatever the power source.

There are a few voices out there, even in the motor industry, highlighting what's happening, but seems no traction, even for debate.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

^^^^

This is the elephant in the room. Private vehicle selection is going in the opposite direction than what is needed, whatever the power source.

There are a few voices out there, even in the motor industry, highlighting what's happening, but seems no traction, even for debate.

But is any one here ready to give up their cars for what ever reason??

Lets be honest people can say what ever they like about reducing consumption, reducing car usage, but unless you are a tree hugging hippy no one ever acts on their words.

Just look at the posts on here about the excitement of getting new cars, faster, safer, more toys is what every one wants. There is little point in dreaming about eutopia, the idea what individuals in human society are willing to work towards the better society rather than their own needs only exist in StarTrek.

The closest real world attempt at social engineering is commuminism, and the largest communist state today is actually essentially a capitalist system but wrapped up in a communist symbolism for purpose of power retention rather than attempting what Karl Marx dreamed off.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I was surprised to see the Ioniq 5 weighs over 2 tons, so not far off weight of our X.

It does seem like the Koreans haven't done anything magical with EVs, the Kona/eNiro are more efficient because they are slow and relative light weight. Add in performance and some extra toys the Ioniq is no more efficient than any other equivalent EV, and at £50k not that much cheaper.

£37k in base spec. The high powered one can also be had for £45k. It's the ultimate that nudges £48k.

Not magical, no. That's never going to happen with current battery technology.

But a solid BEV with an imaginative design at a great price, yes.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

Agreed, although we probably just want to focus on overall efficiency rather than weight, displacement, co2 output etc. Could all be encapsulated by something simple to measure like miles per Joule? Could easily be applied to any car no matter what the fuel source is, both current technologies and future.

I think where weight comes in, on top of efficiency, is the virtuous circle of it all. Less materials consumed in build, less consumables used during the lifecycle.

Imagine a notional 1500kg line below which tax is significantly less than above it. Significant enough to persuade the buyer into a lighter engine/battery pack model running on eco 16s with smaller discs. Of course, the tax goes up if efficiency isn't also commensurate with the tax bracket.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Sennen

100% agree with all of this Dave.

I think the time has now come to 'properly' tax those that buy new 'status' cars.

The EV crowd can crack on all they like about saving the planet but I reckon buying a petrol VW UP today, servicing it regularly and running it into the ground over 20 years has to be more Eco Friendly than buying a gizmo loaded 2 tonne EV every 3 years.

It is virtually impossible to spot what I call a non 'status' car round here anymore, it is mainly EVs or massive 4x4s (usually driven by 1 person) and the occasional smattering of performance cars (which seem to be getting rarer).

How about bunging a one off £15k tax payable in full on delivery for any car that either either weighs more than 1.5 tonnes, has an engine bigger than 1.5 litres or exceeds 75gr/km emissions. I know that wont sit well with the majority on here that buy their cars on PCPs/Lease etc but if we are truly worried about the environment then we will have to take our medicine.

A £60k car already has £10k of VAT in the price plus the new car tax.... I reckon my status M5 had a £15k tax bill, your 840i probably not far off.

It just gets added into the monthlies for those buying on PCP (which isnt a crime by the way...)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

But is any one here ready to give up their cars for what ever reason??

I lived through the energy crisis in the 1970's. Was in the motor trade at the time and when folks get hit hard with costs, it does change behaviour. Large cars and even smaller cars with big engines dropped in value like a stone, as folks downsized to much more fuel efficient vehicles.

Whether the personal impact of climate changes will be enough... we will see.