[momo_]

Hi everyone

Was hoping that my first meaningful post to the forum would be a more positive one but perhaps this is something that can help a few others out there or perhaps someone can help me with my current situation.

I purchased a 65 LCI 330d xdrive recently from an approved bmw dealer that at this point I am not sure whether or not I should name. It was for an OK/ higher end of average price but the spec on it was what I was looking for.

Problems started 2 weeks in when I had drivetrain errors that appear and disappear. Initially the car felt quick however it's mpg has dropped drastically from 39 to to 30mpg, it has started to feel slow and I noticed the smell of diesel in the cabin.

I then developed a few random issues like auto leveling headlight warning which resolved the night before taking it to the garage and weak AC driver's side, obscene wind noise and loose air intake.

I was finally able to take the car in today to a BMW garage from a different group to the seller to look at these issues.

I genuinely regret ever taking it to these cowboys and should have read their reviews first.

I was called at mid day after none of the warranty work being investigated to be told there is a mileage discrepancy with the car and the warranty is void. Apparently an error code has come up which was 11 miles ahead of the mileage recorded

I was obviously shocked and couldn't understand why there would be a discrepancy of 11 miles or why anyone would do that.

I visited the garage immediately and after digging deeper found the mileage recorded was the key mileage which last updated the night before. The dealership is 12 miles away from me so likely the error occurred on my way to work but was sporadic and doesn't show up on the dash.

When I collected the vehicle the mileage on the car was 13 miles more than the mileage initially recorded and 1 more mile than the error code. I confirmed that they key and the speedometer are showing the same readings and I confirmed that previous error codes I reported 2 weeks ago appear to have been flagged at appropriate mileages given my usage.

The dealership have accepted that this was a mistake, however they decided to open the instrument cluster and reported that a clear seal was broken on the instrument cluster and a white sticker placed ontop of it. Therefore there is still a mark on my warranty. Now I dont know if this dealership deliberately or accidentally did this themselves or if it was there prior. All I know is if they recorded the correct mileage at the time they wouldnt have had to open the instrument cluster.

They insinuated that there may be a device inside the cluster but refused to open the cluster to prove this. However I explained that my mileage has been accurate since I have purchased the car

Ive asked BMW UK to investigate this and will contact my dealership from where I purchased the car 2 months ago. I do feel like I have been seriously scammed here either by the selling dealership or the service dealership I took it to today. I purchased a car at a 2.5k premium vs other sellers only to be covered by a warranty which was void.

Despite this massive rant I try to be positive about everything including challenging situations so the key thing is to learn lessons from mistakes.

Lessons learnt for me
1. Always take pictures of mileage before and after you take it to dealerships
2. Dont trust approved used checks, make sure work flagged has been carried out - simple things that were flagged like battery, key battery and wipers werent fixed.
3. Dont take cars to different warranty repair centers from where you purchased it, if there is a lot of warranty work to be done, it is more profitable to void your warranty and for them to spend their time on services.
4. Dont trust BMW approved, particularly these 2 centers, which I may name later.
5. Double check the information provided to you by service centers to make sure it checks out
6. Trust gut instinct, walk away the first time a dealer gives you inaccurate information or is hesitant to provide paperwork.
7. Dont trust warranties, buy the best car you can find within your budget


has anyone ever come across this before?

Are you aware of how many seals would be on an instrument cluster, if there is another seal that may be visible on the inside that could check if the car had been tampered with?

Do you know of any good lawyers that could deal with an issue like this?

[robbiep]

I think naming and shaming right now would be grossly unfair to the dealership you bought it from, without even giving them the chance to put things right.

You had faults from 2 weeks in, but only now have you been able to get the car in to a dealership - did you not look over the AUC benefits, and see that you have BMW assist for the first year ? They would have picked up the car for you and dropped off a loan car, and it would have been done within a few hours of contact, not after waiting 6 weeks.

[Armaan]

Welcome to the forum but your issues seem to have no real materiality so far.

1. The investigating dealership have said they made an error and therefore your warranty is still intact?

2. Your warranty cannot be voided by a dealership without the authority of BMW UK as they offer it as part of approved used?

3. You've not given the original dealership a chance to rectify the issues you have

4. You can still reject the car if they cannot fix it and that's your remedy.

Armaan

[momo_]

Originally Posted by robbiep

I think naming and shaming right now would be grossly unfair to the dealership you bought it from, without even giving them the chance to put things right.

You had faults from 2 weeks in, but only now have you been able to get the car in to a dealership - did you not look over the AUC benefits, and see that you have BMW assist for the first year ? They would have picked up the car for you and dropped off a loan car, and it would have been done within a few hours of contact, not after waiting 6 weeks.

Yeah I agree which is why I chose to hold off for now.

My first issue was the intermittent drive train warning which disappeared within 1 minute. That came on twice. However at that point the car was driving fine. The other issues have all happened in the last 3 weeks. I foolishly didnt make anything of the drivetrain issue initially.

With regards to the approved used benefits I was told that my local dealership doesnt offer loaner cars due to coronavirus and due to my work I did not have time to drop off a car and take public transport to a different area.

Originally Posted by Armaan

Welcome to the forum but your issues seem to have no real materiality so far.

1. The investigating dealership have said they made an error and therefore your warranty is still intact?

2. Your warranty cannot be voided by a dealership without the authority of BMW UK as they offer it as part of approved used?

3. You've not given the original dealership a chance to rectify the issues you have

4. You can still reject the car if they cannot fix it and that's your remedy.

Armaan

I respect your opinion but the fact that I have been told a warranty of a recently purchased AUC is void due to mileage manipulation a broken seal is substantial enough for me.

1. They admitted they made an error in saying there is a mileage discrepancy after I highlighted it to them. I think to automatically assume that there is mileage manipulation over 11 miles rather than to check they keys and dashboard again is a little bit overboard. Would seem like a sensible first step. However they state that the warranty is still void and therefore havent looked into all the issues

2. This is true that the warranty cannot be voided by the dealership. But they can reject work and place a mark. This then gets investigated by BMW UK, but I have been told by BMW UK that they suspect tampering if the seal is broken and therefore the warranty is effectively void.

3. I tried to contact the sales manager who was away today. I will give them an opportunity tomorrow now I have gathered all the information. Highlighting that there wasnt a mileage discrepancy was paramount.

4. I think this is a possibility but I will need to look further into this as its over 30 days old.

[robbiep]

I didn't mention getting a loan car from the dealership, or whether they are offering loan cars at the moment. Or taking the car anywhere, or having to get public transport.

I said using BMW assist - which you got as part of your purchase

[Armaan]

Originally Posted by momo_

Yeah I agree which is why I chose to hold off for now.

My first issue was the intermittent drive train warning which disappeared within 1 minute. That came on twice. However at that point the car was driving fine. The other issues have all happened in the last 3 weeks. I foolishly didnt make anything of the drivetrain issue initially.

With regards to the approved used benefits I was told that my local dealership doesnt offer loaner cars due to coronavirus and due to my work I did not have time to drop off a car and take public transport to a different area.

I respect your opinion but the fact that I have been told a warranty of a recently purchased AUC is void due to mileage manipulation a broken seal is substantial enough for me.

1. They admitted they made an error in saying there is a mileage discrepancy after I highlighted it to them. I think to automatically assume that there is mileage manipulation over 11 miles rather than to check they keys and dashboard again is a little bit overboard. Would seem like a sensible first step. However they state that the warranty is still void and therefore havent looked into all the issues

2. This is true that the warranty cannot be voided by the dealership. But they can reject work and place a mark. This then gets investigated by BMW UK, but I have been told by BMW UK that they suspect tampering if the seal is broken and therefore the warranty is effectively void.

3. I tried to contact the sales manager who was away today. I will give them an opportunity tomorrow now I have gathered all the information. Highlighting that there wasnt a mileage discrepancy was paramount.

4. I think this is a possibility but I will need to look further into this as its over 30 days old.

My main point and your follow up shows that you've not given the original dealership a chance to investigate and offer a resolution.

They are human beings like all of us and don't spot every detail. I very much doubt a instrument cluster seal is part of the AUC checks IMO.

Be fair and reasonable and let them have a chance to rectify your issues.

Armaan

[momo_]

Originally Posted by robbiep

I didn't mention getting a loan car from the dealership, or whether they are offering loan cars at the moment. Or taking the car anywhere, or having to get public transport.

I said using BMW assist - which you got as part of your purchase

ohright, my apologies. I wasnt aware of this. I was under the impression that this is in the case of an accident or if it is undriveable.

Thanks for letting me know.

Originally Posted by Armaan

My main point and your follow up shows that you've not given the original dealership a chance to investigate and offer a resolution.

They are human beings like all of us and don't spot every detail. I very much doubt a instrument cluster seal is part of the AUC checks IMO.

Be fair and reasonable and let them have a chance to rectify your issues.

Armaan

Yeah I agree. Issues happen, we all make mistakes but its how they are resolved thats important.

I did try to contact them initially but the manager who sold me the car was unavailable. To be fair he seems reasonable and respectful so I hope he can resolve the issue. They did say at the time if I ever have any warranty issues to come back to them.

I wanted to just gather a few thought before I speak to them to see if this is something that anyone else had experience with.

I think it would have been more unfair to go to them without confirming the information I was provided with is valid. It would have been very diffult for me and for the dealership to prove the mileage was correct retrospectively as it could be suggested it was corrected. Infact I was encouraged to return the car immediately for a refund.

The instrument cluster seal is not part of the AUC check. But like I mentioned, a few things that were, werent resolved. One key had a dead battery (which is now lost) another key has a battery thats just about working, the wipers were completely gone and the car battery is low. Those are little things and Ive dealt with them myself rather than go back.

I wouldnt expect them to necessarily check the seals, but if its something that can void the warranty you would hope it had been checked? otherwise it leaves the customer in a difficult position.




This is the picture of the seal. I dont know if everyone has come across them before and is able to tell if it is the original seal.

[KRS_SN]

it is up to them to prove that you tampered with the seal. If they cant then the car was missold as AUC with warranty so they'll have to buy it back from you as BMW has rescinded the warranty.
I think you are in strong ground here if you haven't done any tampering.

[BBri89]

Originally Posted by momo_

ohright, my apologies. I wasnt aware of this. I was under the impression that this is in the case of an accident or if it is undriveable.

Thanks for letting me know.

Yeah I agree. Issues happen, we all make mistakes but its how they are resolved thats important.

I did try to contact them initially but the manager who sold me the car was unavailable. To be fair he seems reasonable and respectful so I hope he can resolve the issue. They did say at the time if I ever have any warranty issues to come back to them.

I wanted to just gather a few thought before I speak to them to see if this is something that anyone else had experience with.

I think it would have been more unfair to go to them without confirming the information I was provided with is valid. It would have been very diffult for me and for the dealership to prove the mileage was correct retrospectively as it could be suggested it was corrected. Infact I was encouraged to return the car immediately for a refund.

The instrument cluster seal is not part of the AUC check. But like I mentioned, a few things that were, werent resolved. One key had a dead battery (which is now lost) another key has a battery thats just about working, the wipers were completely gone and the car battery is low. Those are little things and Ive dealt with them myself rather than go back.

I wouldnt expect them to necessarily check the seals, but if its something that can void the warranty you would hope it had been checked? otherwise it leaves the customer in a difficult position.




This is the picture of the seal. I dont know if everyone has come across them before and is able to tell if it is the original seal.

You can see the leftover bits of the original seal underneath... that's just a plain white sticker not a security seal.


It's AUC though, give them the chance to fix it all, if they can't/don't, escalate to BMW UK and reject the car, as you bought something that shouldn't have been sold as it was.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

it is up to them to prove that you tampered with the seal. If they cant then the car was missold as AUC with warranty so they'll have to buy it back from you as BMW has rescinded the warranty.
I think you are in strong ground here if you haven't done any tampering.

^ ^ ^
I'm on this page.

If the OP hasn't tampered, then it is between the two dealers and BMW UK to expand on and explain this issue. If there is evidence a mileage blocker may have been fitted at some time.... I'd be after restoration of the warranty, or a buy back. Which one I'd accept, my choice.

[momo_]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Originally Posted by BBri89

You can see the leftover bits of the original seal underneath... that's just a plain white sticker not a security seal.


It's AUC though, give them the chance to fix it all, if they can't/don't, escalate to BMW UK and reject the car, as you bought something that shouldn't have been sold as it was.

Thats what I was afraid of, couldnt find anything about the seals online and if there is more than 1.

I dont really understand why they have to open the ECU anyway? Is it necessary to clock back cars?

I was initially open to a repair but thinking about it, you can repair the LED headlights, the EGR issue etc but how do you repair suspected mileage manipulation? You can change the instrument cluster but what mileage do you change it to? Would I have to declare the mileage manipulation if sell the car The mileage correlates between the key and Speedo, but is it the accurate mileage of the car? Cant someone simply bypass the VOSA mileage checks by clocking it back in between services and MOT? Why is it still so easy to clock cars back.

Under consumer rights act dealers have one opportunity to repair, unless its unrepairable or it causes the owner substantial inconvenience. Which honestly right now it is.

Considering its two screws and nothing else, Would deter a lot of people if manufacturers check the seals when performing the 5000 point check they do where most of them are bog standard things and are not even as thorough as an MOT. Would definitely instil more confidence in me If I knew they did that.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

^ ^ ^
I'm on this page.

If the OP hasn't tampered, then it is between the two dealers and BMW UK to expand on and explain this issue. If there is evidence a mileage blocker may have been fitted at some time.... I'd be after restoration of the warranty, or a buy back. Which one I'd accept, my choice.

So the service center stated to BMW UK that they didnt tamper with the seal or open up the instrument cluster but admitted human error in not reading the mileage on the speedo before deciding to take it out. .....

Maybe they did me a favour though? How else would I have known about this?

Even if they fix it, Im not sure they would be able to reinstate the warranty? This seems very unlikely and I paid a premium for the car for the approved warranty and peace of mind. Even if they reduce the price, im stuck with a car with 10 different fault codes and no guarantee that if anything else goes wrong in the future, that it will be covered by good will or by warranty.

Its a headache trying to buy a car right now. No ability to test drive and to make sure that the next one will be fine.

Informed the dealer today and sent them all the emails and documents. They have not come back to me. We will see where this goes. I hope we can resolve this issue in a respectful way but Im not willing to let this thing drag on if I keep getting "Il call you back in 30 minutes" treatment.

Maybe its better buying a banger knowing its a banger than paying for AUC and still getting a banger?

[robbiep]

Garages are shut. You know, lockdown, pandemic, all that jazz ?

To expect instantaneous decisions on complex matters - when you yourself took 6 weeks to get the car booked in to be looked at - is ridiculous.

You decided, from your very first post, that the dealer was 'dodgy', you were looking for recommendations for a lawyer, you were about to name and shame. You went to BMW GB before giving the dealership a chance to put things right.

I think what has happened so far reflects rather more on you than it does on the selling dealership, and your latest post supports my viewpoint even further.

[blau3er]

I have a cluster in my loft - I will get it out and check what the seals look like if you want?

It’s the original one from my car - as it came from the factory.

Also - it looks like there is a snapped piece of plastic on the back of your cluster?

[C320]

Originally Posted by blau3er

I have a cluster in my loft - I will get it out and check what the seals look like if you want?

It’s the original one from my car - as it came from the factory.

Also - it looks like there is a snapped piece of plastic on the back of your cluster?

Yep, that definitely has been messed around with.

You can see the crack (part of the label is missing). Similarly the protective seal has been broken and someone has just stuck a white sticker on top of it.

[momo_]

Originally Posted by robbiep

Garages are shut. You know, lockdown, pandemic, all that jazz ?

To expect instantaneous decisions on complex matters - when you yourself took 6 weeks to get the car booked in to be looked at - is ridiculous.

You decided, from your very first post, that the dealer was 'dodgy', you were looking for recommendations for a lawyer, you were about to name and shame. You went to BMW GB before giving the dealership a chance to put things right.

I think what has happened so far reflects rather more on you than it does on the selling dealership, and your latest post supports my viewpoint even further.

Garages arent shut. I visited one 2 days ago. Sales are open, some salesman are in branch, managers are in branch, service department is open as usual. The only real difference is you cant test drive or drink coffee or sit down.

As I explained, the initial issues were intermittent faults, faults that are commonly mentioned in the forum. Infact there is a recent thread about intermittent drivetrain malfunction and the consensus was if it disappears by itself don't worry about it. So I dont think I did anything particularly wrong there, per se.

The other faults happened in the last 2-3 weeks. The light error was constant and thats when I first made arrangements for the dealer for a suitable date to take it in. I was working 6 days a week and variable shift patterns, The weather situation lead to me rescheduling twice and lack of courtesy car made it harder. Your BMW assist suggestion was a great thought but im fairly sure it does not apply because the car was not undriveable. Make no mistake if at anypoint I had any idea there was a tampered instrument cluster, I wouldnt have hesitated to take it back to the dealer immediately.

I did not expect an instant resolution. But I can see why you might have thought that based on the way I worded it. Infact I approached them with transparency regarding the issue, forwarded them emails and provided them documents first thing in the morning. I offered them a suggestion of looking to see if there had been any previous warranty or repair work done that may have involved the cluster and that its a bad situation to be in. Ive tried to help the best I can and did not pressure them. The issue I have is when I am told, "I will call you back in 30 minutes once ive read the emails"...and then get completely ignored after. How would you feel? Even if their update was to say they are still looking into it. I expect them to respect their customers and just be upfront about the situation. I did not expect a decision there and then, but I do expect the courtesy of an update if that is what they told me they would do.

Perhaps there are a few other misunderstandings. Let me try to clarify.

1. I had tried to contact both dealers first before speaking to BMW UK. Spoke to the service center, however the selling dealership manager was unavailable. The service center admitted "human error" after I reviewed their evidence that they used to void my warranty over an alleged 11 mile discrepancy, but would not give me this in writing. Im sure having spoken to BMW UK helped me get that.

2. Given the fact that my warranty had been deemed void, I was told by the service center that they have already contacted BMW UK as they have an obligation to report this. So whats wrong with talking to BMW UK to learn more about the warranty situation (if they already know about it) and to ask if they would be willing to authorise the dealer to open the cluster to investigate for a device as it is a AUC? Naturally they offered to intervene and speak to the selling dealer also I asked them to hold off. By doing so, I have at least debunked one error for the selling dealership by confirming the mileage was correlating with the key. I didn't call them to ask them to intervene before they were given a chance. If anything, if I hadnt called them and clarified the mileage situation there and then, it would have been even harder to explain why there is a broken seal and a mileage discrepancy.

3. Where did I say they were "dodgy"? I did call them cowboys and the way they handled the situation with the mileage I stand by that fair and very lenient assessment. Who takes apart a car over an 11 mile discrepancy before checking the mileage on the dash and the key reading? Maybe even look at the date first to see if its todays mileage rather than assume "fraud".

4. How do you put right a voided warranty due to alleged mileage manipulation and broken instrument cluster seals? I would be interested to hear your suggestion.

5. I didnt name and shame despite obviously being upset, particularly on the day I posted this. But I have no problems doing so if its not resolved to warn others to avoid making the same mistakes. And I do think if there are any positive learning points it to check your cars if you have seals broken, take pictures of this before taking them in to new garages and always record your mileage before and after.

6. Im still looking for a lawyer because I dont have the time to be chasing dealers around. Its just stress and drama I dont need. I would quite happily pay for the peace of mind to not have to worry about this. Obviously would be nice if it can be resolved by other means and swiftly, but it would be naive to not consider all my options.

Frankly you can have your viewpoint but thats all it is, you can do with it what you want. People have all sorts of views and change them all the time.

Either way, thanks for your help, if thats what you were trying to do?

Originally Posted by blau3er

I have a cluster in my loft - I will get it out and check what the seals look like if you want?

It’s the original one from my car - as it came from the factory.

Also - it looks like there is a snapped piece of plastic on the back of your cluster?

If that isnt too out of your way that would genuinely be a great help. The only instrument clusters I have been able to find pictures of are on ebay and from the angles of the pictures I cant see a seal or I can only see white ones. If the cluster is hidden somewhere difficult to access don't trouble yourself too much. Im sure the dealership will have taken apart a few stock cars to compare.

Where about do you see the snapped plastic. do you mean the clip literally left of the sticker? I have a few other pictures that were sent to me that might have another angle.

[blau3er]

Went up into the loft for you and here are the pics:





You have a snapped bit of plastic towards the bottom of yours - half the sticker is missing!

[momo_]

Originally Posted by blau3er

Went up into the loft for you and here are the pics:



You have a snapped bit of plastic towards the bottom of yours - half the sticker is missing!

Thank you so much Blau3er. This is very useful. I assume that from the factory the white sticker is part of the tamper proof seal underneath it. when this is pealed, the seal underneath breaks and you are left with what i have on mine.

[Eddamoo]

AUC checks are a load of rubbish. I just bought an AUC Z4 from Haliwell Jones and it was a mess of a process. Incomplete service book, service not recorded, filthy interior (despite full 'sanitisation'), mileage mis-represented by 10% (they took it from the spare key), knackered battery etc. etc. That makes me 99.9% certain they havent done anything even remotely complex like check the mileage on both keys vs the ECU's.

In my old E85 Z4 there were at least 3 modules which stored the cars mileage. This included the light control module and one other i cant remember. I remember the LCM also had the car's ignition-on time which could help you fathom the average speed.

Worth scanning these modules to see if you see a discrepancy? Also you can get a record of all the key reads done at BMW dealerships from BMW UK or any Dealer.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by robbiep

Garages are shut. You know, lockdown, pandemic, all that jazz ?

To expect instantaneous decisions on complex matters - when you yourself took 6 weeks to get the car booked in to be looked at - is ridiculous.

You decided, from your very first post, that the dealer was 'dodgy', you were looking for recommendations for a lawyer, you were about to name and shame. You went to BMW GB before giving the dealership a chance to put things right.

I think what has happened so far reflects rather more on you than it does on the selling dealership, and your latest post supports my viewpoint even further.

That's a harsh reply IMO.

Garages/dealerships aren't closed; not all of them anyway.

My 30d had the EGR cooler replaced (again) a couple of weeks ago at a BMW main dealer which is open for business. The showrooms may not be open, but other areas of business operations are still operating. They are still staffed, and it's reasonable for the OP to expect a prompt reply to a matter such as suspected mileage clocking.

[330Stevie]

Originally Posted by Watsey

That's a harsh reply IMO.

Garages/dealerships aren't closed; not all of them anyway.

My 30d had the EGR cooler replaced (again) a couple of weeks ago at a BMW main dealer which is open for business. The showrooms may not be open, but other areas of business operations are still operating. They are still staffed, and it's reasonable for the OP to expect a prompt reply to a matter such as suspected mileage clocking.

Yes, harsh! Completely agree with this; mine in for service a few weeks back. The showroom was as near to BAU as possible with only the smell of coffee missing!

[momo_]

So the car has been with the garage for 26 days now.

They have told me many conflicting stories.

They initially told me the mileage is stored in 3 locations, which contradicts what I was told by the previous garage that it is stored in the instrument cluster and the key.

I was told 2 weeks ago that the car had an aftermarket instrument cluster. That this was swapped out with a genuine BMW instrument cluster that is not the part that was supplied from factory.

Following this was a week of radio silence. I called a sales manager for an update. He advised me its best to speak to the service manager (who had promised to call me earlier that week) as he is the expert.

The service manager promptly called me however contradicted everything I had been previously told. He informed me that he isnt even sure if the car is supposed to come with a tamper seal from factory. He explained that the instrument cluster isnt an aftermarket one and is the genuine cluster from factory. He informed me that they dont have a serial number. He still had no idea what the progress is with BMW UK or the warranty.

At this point I explained to him I can prove that the car comes with a seal from factory, thanks to blau3er. And I asked him how exactly can he contradict himself and the information he had previously provided me.

Obviously at this point I have serious doubts about the service manager I have spoken to. I asked him if we can communicate via email from now on. He was happy to do so until I
asked him to explain the inconsistency via email.

Now his response is the sales team will update you, who are also evading emails for the last 10 days.

I have given these guys every benefit of the doubt I can spare. Now it feels like the only option is to reject the car and to get a lawyer to contact them if they continue to ignore my emails.

[3-GT]

I think continuing the conversation by email is a good move.

Personally, if there's no explanation for the broken seal and a resolution that would reinstate the warranty, I'd be rejecting the car.

If you've took out finance I'd be getting them involved now. You’ve given them enough time to come up with a resolution and it sounds like you're now being given the runaround or they've lost interest.