10-06-2019, 02:24 AM | #45 |
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You forgot nothing can compare to a raised up, over weight, 'life style' 3 series powered by a tractor engine, those things are even quicker than an Enzo Ferrari didn't you know.
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10-06-2019, 02:59 AM | #46 |
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Great write-up, thanks for taking the time to do that.
FWIW, I think you are doing the right thing in taking a punt on the things that are worse than BMW vs. the things that are better. Tesla definitely makes the most sense as an EV and I think the Model 3 is reasonably priced and not too far out of kilter on the quality issues. If I had the money, I'd probably be trying to replace my wife's car with a Model 3 or Y in a year or two. Couldn't quite convince myself on the X as my recent purchase, but more about interior quality/luxury than the drivetrain which I really loved.
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10-06-2019, 03:38 AM | #47 | |
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My thought was that if a Tesla (or similar) does a "real world" 200+ miles between charges when new, if battery tech or hydrogen really moved on to say double that range, the depreciation on the older cars would be pretty steep. If prices also fell on new EV's, that would also impact upon the depreciation curve of current models. |
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10-06-2019, 04:04 AM | #48 |
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cheers for that!
The model 3 is appealing given the M3 like performance ... but the quality, total cost of ownership and reliability makes me swing to ICE. After 3 years you have a 80% chance of it breaking down with an average 5.4 days to repair - not good for me but providing you lease and replace frequently you should be ok. |
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10-06-2019, 05:08 AM | #49 |
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I think it would be fascinating if we were all organised enough to bookmark this thread and set a diary reminder for 5 years time.
My predictions would be that 1. All the major manufacturers will be selling sensibly priced EVs with 300+ mile ranges. 2. We'll all still be moaning about the lack of charging infrastructure. It's the second point that I think will really slow the take up of EVs. It's fine if you have a house with a private driveway but huge numbers of UK houses and flats don't and I just don't see, with our record on infrastructure projects, things changing that fast. I suspect I will have at least one more ICE or perhaps a hybrid before an EV.
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10-06-2019, 05:45 AM | #50 | |
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As for EV range in 2008 the Tesla Roadster had an EPA rated range of 240 miles, a 2018 Jaguar iPace has an EPA range of 240 miles, a 2020 Taycan will have an EPA rating of 240 miles. Range for EVs will not go much above 300 miles, lithium ion tech cannot deliver more range without more weight. There is better battery tech coming but stuff in the labs wouldn't hit mass production for a decade at least. As for price, our Model X had a starting price of £64k in 2016, a Nissan Leaf in decent spec is now £40k+, and a Model X starts at £83k now. Prices on EVs are actually only going one way and its not down! Also bare in mind for every 2 EV sold today another 98 combustion cars are been sold. Brimingham is introducing a £8 a day charge effecting diesels as new as 2015 cars, can anyone seriously say a diesel been sold today wouldn't be hit with similar charges come 2025? And possibly for every single city in the UK? I would say you have to be nuts to buy an expensive diesel at present, an EV by comparison is pretty future proof. Finally there is the fact its only a car, if you buy one and don't like it just sell it. Its hardly a life changing decision some people make it out to be. We all change cars all the time, so whats the worry? I've seen/heard/read all kinds of worries/concerns people have about EVs since getting one in 2015. I've now done 54k in various EVs, no regrets and have yet to run out of charge. The choice of EVs are growing all the time, I've seen hardly anyone regret getting an EV, though a few people do go back to combustion cars for the vast majority people dont want to switch back. Life is for living, and if your remotely interested in car I just cannot see why you woudlnt want to try one of the most exciting developments in the automotive industry in living memory. |
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10-06-2019, 06:17 AM | #51 | |
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Having driven a few, including a Model S, there is always an ICE car which I would prefer at the price. I would take an M5 over a Model S by a huge margin for example. 10 years from now, I'll probably have an EV, but I'm having a last ICE fling or two first. |
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10-07-2019, 04:28 PM | #52 | |
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https://insideevs.com/news/332584/ef...gen-22-ice-13/ Then there's the challenge of hydrogen manufacture, storage, and transport. I personally don't think hydrogen will make it, but we'll see. |
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10-08-2019, 12:12 AM | #53 | |
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The biggest problem for EVs is still price, if your actually thinking of buying something like a M5 it's actually easier to justify the high initial purchase cost of an EV. I was budgeting around £50k+ for a used M5, so paying £70k for a brand new EV with cheaper running costs wasn't that difficult man maths. Infact SWMBO demanded and contributed to the EV purchase!!! However as hard as I try I cannot make the figures work on something like a Model 3 for my wife. Her currently car only gets used for commuting, and even though we bought it new latest WBAC figures show its only deprecating at £330/month. So a change to a Model 3 would be far more expensive, even the fuel cost savings dont help. She only does 5k a year, at 10p per mile on fuel (50mpg), that's only £500/year in fuel. The £340/year VED tax alone on the Model 3 nearly wipes out any fuel saving costs!! My experience is that if your looking at replacing your main family car with a fast, comfortable machine, and have a budget of £50k+ an EV is almost a no brainer. Try to justify an EV purely based on local run around budget and your better off sticking to a reliable cheaper combustion car. |
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10-08-2019, 03:17 AM | #54 | |
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Totally agree on your point about the M5 etc. Even before I did my opinion flip on EVs, I was really getting tired of the car market. Things like the M5 are big, expensive beasts that really don't make much sense on UK roads. Maybe I've just been driving for so long now that I've got a cupboard full of t-shirts for cars like that. In any case, I think the public mood about sustainability will ratchet up over the next few years and will make cars like the M5 irrelevant. |
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10-09-2019, 04:57 AM | #55 | |
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If you look at the timescales involved and the tipping points, and the carbon budget the globe has got before reaching those tipping points, we are chewing into that carbon budget at such a rate of knots that by the time your average punter in the UK on a median wage is able to buy an EV for the same price as he could a 5 year old ford focus, it will be too late. (I've sourced Prof. Kevin ANderson to help form my opinions here...) It's a doomsday perspective, and i know that's not the point you were trying to make, but thought its worth saying that yes, legislating for EV's will go some way towards shifting perspectives and mindsets, but its not even half the story. Or even a quarter. I've personally given up all hope, hence why i bought a 440i no doubt if i was doing more than 10k miles a year and had a daily commute i would have stretched budget and tried to get the Tesla 3, it is fantastic. hasn't the idea of fuel cells made a resurgence recently? Last edited by gippy; 10-09-2019 at 05:30 AM.. |
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10-09-2019, 06:22 AM | #56 |
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yep EVs are not as reliable, more expensive to own and the environment argument dubious in general when compared to ICE WLC at the mo.
reliable and relatively cheap public transport is the answer - that would reduce me down to the weekend car, taking the family fleet from 45k miles pa to 3k and lots of fun bizarrely, if we could hack the 90min commute and price to London, we could do this since trains are every 15mins at peak times. local transport adds 30mins×2 to journey times and only runs every hour and still requires lots of walking |
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10-09-2019, 07:07 AM | #57 |
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Hmmm - I'm not sure any of those statements are true. They should be more reliable (fewer moving parts), cheaper in total cost of ownership (running costs, fuel, road tax, fuel tax), and will produce about 25% of the CO2 that an ICE car would.
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10-09-2019, 07:08 AM | #58 | |
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10-09-2019, 07:10 AM | #59 | |
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No, I don't think so. Fuel cells still have very poor efficiency compared to EVs and the logistics of setting up a Hydrogen distribution network are enormous. At least EV charging infrastructure is in principle simple - there are cables and power practically everywhere already. Last edited by pdk42; 10-09-2019 at 07:34 AM.. |
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10-09-2019, 11:06 AM | #60 |
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Latest update from Tesla made me laugh, have your mates round for a boozy movie night in the car.!
************************** Introducing Software Version 10.0. Transform your car into an entertainment juggernaut, with immersive sound so incredible you might consider having your next movie night from your car. Invite friends to sing along or stream your favourite videos while charging with the whole family. Features include: • Cuphead: Enjoy this classic run-and-gun action game with the exclusive Tesla Edition • Tesla Theatre: Experience the most fun you’ll ever have while parked, with your favourite movies, tv shows and videos • Caraoke: Sing along to your favourite songs and watch backseat drivers become backup singers • I’m Feeling…. Lucky? Hungry? One tap will send you on a surprise adventure to a local restaurant or attraction Your driving experience will only get better over time—every Model S, Model X and Model 3 on the road will continue to receive new features and improvements from over-the-air software updates. |
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10-09-2019, 11:43 AM | #61 | |
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10-10-2019, 08:38 AM | #62 | |
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for whole lifecycle emmissions, the official info I've seen from Germany give the break even point at 116km for EV v ICE - though fully charged, engineering explained etc utubers give differing figures. On leasing the deals between EV and ICE are significant - for me £200/m difference and that's before I've looked at insurance - around a £1500/pa difference - given I have under 25s on. once the main manufacturers get involved and 70% r&d kicks this will change. however, the main 'save the planet' reason for adopting EV is dubious at best for someone swapping cars out every 3 years. if you put some of 5.7 trillion usd tax breaks given to the oil industry world wide into public transport I'd be alot better off, still allowed to drive my fun ICE car and be saving the planet in a big way. |
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10-10-2019, 09:43 AM | #63 |
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What is the insurance cost difference between a Tesla (Model 3 presumably?) and your 335d?
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10-10-2019, 11:34 AM | #64 |
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Awesome un-biased review, It was a great read.. For me being a car enthusiast "the reason im on this forum in the first place", EV's just dont do it..
A - B , 100% But for an Enthusiast, not so much outside of laptimes and pure acceleration numbers.... I look fwd to wrenching on my car, ie mods / time in the garage etc ( its a hobby ). I also look fwd to hearing the engine rev through the gears and the pops and noises as I downshift through a turn / offramp / track day etc.. The EV's are fast no doubt but they dont give me ( my personal opinion only ) the enjoyment as a car enthusiast.. I wanna hear a snarling inline 6, I wanna hear the shifts whether manual or a dct... If you take away the wrenching, whether it be minor maintenance or mods such as an intake / exhaust and you take away the sound.. You truly are just left with an appliance that fits the bill for A-B but not for a person who truly enjoys cars like the enthusiast.
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10-10-2019, 02:27 PM | #65 | |
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10-10-2019, 10:33 PM | #66 | |
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PS... The VR6 is prob one of the best sounding engines out there..
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