[Kal101]

Great. No doubt the powers that be will decide the best way to deal with this menace will be to increase taxes on diesel.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Kal27

Great. No doubt the powers that be will decide the best way to deal with this menace will be to increase taxes on diesel.

Of course it has nothing to do with modern cars have far more economical and emission controlled engines.

More economical cars result in less tax from fuel than previous engines.

Also if they do clamp down on diesels across the board without highlighting new engine emission control and say reducing any future tax on them.

If not this will directly impact UK jobs.

[sandford6016]

Originally Posted by Kal27

Great. No doubt the powers that be will decide the best way to deal with this menace will be to increase taxes on diesel.

This is my worry. Depends which d!&@head gets voted into the hot seat in a couple of weeks

[Nick the Greek]

[Kal101]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Of course it has nothing to do with modern cars have far more economical and emission controlled engines.

More economical cars result in less tax from fuel than previous engines.

Also if they do clamp down on diesels across the board without highlighting new engine emission control and say reducing any future tax on them.

If not this will directly impact UK jobs.

And that's why diesel is more expensive at the pumps. Sometime ago the government decided with the uptake in diesel there was less fuel being sold resulting in less monies going into their coffers.

Solution. Increase the duty on diesel Simple really !!!

[Kal101]

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

A year older but not a year wiser. Yet

Or

You'd be off buying a diesel as well.

[Quakered]

Front page of the Telegraph today "Pollution ruling 'end of the road' for diesel cars"

I think the whatever collection of lunatics are elected next week are going to have to reserve the ridiculous Labour decision (one of so many!) to encourage the gullible to buy diesel cars by offering them financial incentives.

I fully understand that many make important decisions based only on what will save them money but why are people still buying diesels when the writing is so clearly on the wall that owners of these vehicles (or renters) are about to be royally stuffed?

[alpine330D]

On my 2hr commute this morning I'd say 75% of vehicles at least were diesel.if its any kind of taxation or hike in fuel price then everyone will suffer. Haulage companies, public transport companies, supermarkets will all pass on the cost to the consumer, so even you smug petrol drivers will pay for our filthy stinking toxic diesels

[335dJa]

Originally Posted by Quakered

Front page of the Telegraph today "Pollution ruling 'end of the road' for diesel cars"

I think the whatever collection of lunatics are elected next week are going to have to reserve the ridiculous Labour decision (one of so many!) to encourage the gullible to buy diesel cars by offering them financial incentives.

I fully understand that many make important decisions based only on what will save them money but why are people still buying diesels when the writing is so clearly on the wall that owners of these vehicles (or renters) are about to be royally stuffed?

"Royally stuffed" is getting a bit dramatic. I'm fairly sure bmw and others wouldn't have invested the obscene amount of money into diesel tech if they are going to be obsolete in the imminent future. Calm down dear.

[x-m4n]

Originally Posted by Quakered

Front page of the Telegraph today "Pollution ruling 'end of the road' for diesel cars"

Somebody needs to clarify this for us - and those who write those papers - and explain which sort of engines are bound to be bad - ok, old car/trucks but how old?

My F34 is Euro 6 compliant - I hope that is good/not so bad!

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 335dJa

"Royally stuffed" is getting a bit dramatic. I'm fairly sure bmw and others wouldn't have invested the obscene amount of money into diesel tech if they are going to be obsolete in the imminent future. Calm down dear.

Absolutely spot on....I get a commercial motor industry magazine, and this diesel thing has been debated for some time, including feedback from gov fact finders. The government know how much money and effort has gone into diesel technology, and how much the industry (mostly european led) is worth. There would be a major backlash should a government decide to penalise the industry. If they do, it will be done in a long term phasing out style, not an immediate ban tomorrow.

The usual case of a tabloid stirring the brown smelly stuff....

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by alpine330D

On my 2hr commute this morning I'd say 75% of vehicles at least were diesel.if its any kind of taxation or hike in fuel price then everyone will suffer. Haulage companies, public transport companies, supermarkets will all pass on the cost to the consumer, so even you smug petrol drivers will pay for our filthy stinking toxic diesels

If we are honest about it, we all drive filthy polluting vehicles, leaves us with "at what cost" do we get decent air quality?

It is a serious problem, anyone with air quality health related issues knows this quite clearly.

We enjoy our unlimited mobility, but it is coming at a price, I guess we will all have to pay more, if we really do want cleaner air, particularly in the overly polluted urban areas.

HighlandPete

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

If we are honest about it, we all drive filthy polluting vehicles, leaves us with "at what cost" do we get decent air quality?

It is a serious problem, anyone with air quality health related issues knows this quite clearly.

We enjoy our unlimited mobility, but it is coming at a price, I guess we will all have to pay more, if we really do want cleaner air, particularly in the overly polluted urban areas.

HighlandPete

I followed an old Jenson Interceptor the other day.......nearly got incapacitated by the fumes coming out of it. Just shows how far the auto industry have come in a relatively short time. The irony is.....the Jenson is probably a VED = £0 classic.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by x-m4n

Somebody needs to clarify this for us - and those who write those papers - and explain which sort of engines are bound to be bad - ok, old car/trucks but how old?

My F34 is Euro 6 compliant - I hope that is good/not so bad!

The problem with headlines, we very often only see/read the froth on a subject. Get into the serious studies and data and it is very complex.

My observation, there is a major problem in establishing what pollutants are coming from where. That has to be agreed. Then we have a motoring industry related problem, is an engine that is EU4, EU5 or EU6 actually compliant in the real world? If appears virtually impossible to agree on and establish that simple fact. Current testing doesn't exist for used vehicles, MOT is not testing for continued compliance, (too simplistic) so on what baseline do we set acceptable emission figures?

Theoretically CO2 and NOx emissions from petrol and diesel should be much lower than they are, engines are more polluting in use, something is not adding up. I sense we know a good reason why, if we can't achieve the mpg figures which are related to EU targets, the real figures are going to be much higher anyway.

EU6 compliant vehicles clearly have the best emission rating, easy to see older vehicles being a target of restriction from selected urban zones, or other penalties being proposed. One serious suggestion in one of the government working papers is upgrading the emission devices on the older engines, like retrofitting DPFs.

As a start, perhaps a more stringent MOT emissions test would help, ensure engines are in good working order across the load range. Stop folks deleting or tampering with emission equipment, enforcing continued compliance to the relevant OEM EU tier. Any engine tuning to be certified by the provider to comply to the relevant EU tier, confirming continued type approval, tax banding, etc., for the vehicle.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

I followed an old Jenson Interceptor the other day.......nearly got incapacitated by the fumes coming out of it. Just shows how far the auto industry have come in a relatively short time. The irony is.....the Jenson is probably a VED = £0 classic.

We get quite a few motoring clubs come up here through the summer months. Get a few old cars driving together and they stink, I know what you mean about almost choking you as they drive along. Yes, we have come a long way in cleaning up engines.

Problem I see, we now have many more vehicles and more congestion, get the pollution overload from a different set of problems.

HighlandPete

[GEP77]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

The problem with headlines, we very often only see/read the froth on a subject. Get into the serious studies and data and it is very complex.

My observation, there is a major problem in establishing what pollutants are coming from where. That has to be agreed. Then we have a motoring industry related problem, is an engine that is EU4, EU5 or EU6 actually compliant in the real world? If appears virtually impossible to agree on and establish that simple fact. Current testing doesn't exist for used vehicles, MOT is not testing for continued compliance, (too simplistic) so on what baseline do we set acceptable emission figures?

Theoretically CO2 and NOx emissions from petrol and diesel should be much lower than they are, engines are more polluting in use, something is not adding up. I sense we know a good reason why, if we can't achieve the mpg figures which are related to EU targets, the real figures are going to be much higher anyway.

EU6 compliant vehicles clearly have the best emission rating, easy to see older vehicles being a target of restriction from selected urban zones, or other penalties being proposed. One serious suggestion in one of the government working papers is upgrading the emission devices on the older engines, like retrofitting DPFs.

As a start, perhaps a more stringent MOT emissions test would help, ensure engines are in good working order across the load range. Stop folks deleting or tampering with emission equipment, enforcing continued compliance to the relevant OEM EU tier. Any engine tuning to be certified by the provider to comply to the relevant EU tier, confirming continued type approval, tax banding, etc., for the vehicle.

HighlandPete

You've hit the nail on the head there - several times.

Retrofitting filters is certainly an option - although unlikely to be economically justifiable to pre Euro V cars. It would also go against long standing government policy (regardless of party) to not retrospectively tax/punish when new environmental laws come in.

That's why older cars get taxed on engine size and not CO2.

Going forward I'd certainly like to see much tougher restrictions on Low Emission Zones. They actually need to target more that just transport. This can be shown in the London LEZ where the mayor's office admits through their own documentation that road users only contribute up to half of all harmful emissions - gas boilers in domestic properties contribute more than all private vehicles for instance.


Enforcing tuners to keep compliance with EU emissions laws would I think be very beneficial. It would also challenge tuners to put more effort into testing their maps more thoroughly. I believe the likes of ACS and Hartge already quote revised CO2 outputs on their engine tunes for instance.

There also ought to be a specific offence where you deliberately remove and/or tamper with emissions reduction technology fitted to vehicles.

[Nick the Greek]

Just sent another letter to my MP (Conservative, obviously), to complain about the noise and pollution produced by a neighbour's 330d.

It's just not on!

[matt_320d]

All depends on where they draw the line.

Euro 4? Euro 5? Euro 6?


The 335d is euro 6, but most of us are probs on euro 5...

[JD6]

Originally Posted by GEP77

Retrofitting filters is certainly an option - although unlikely to be economically justifiable to pre Euro V cars. It would also go against long standing government policy (regardless of party) to not retrospectively tax/punish when new environmental laws come in.

That's why older cars get taxed on engine size and not CO2.

Of course this hasn't always been government policy. During the March 2006, they attempted to backdate a series of new penal VED rates for CO2 above 225g/km back to 2001. This caused one hell of a battle as some cars would have become virtually worthless overnight, and the policy was quietly dropped for cars registered before 23rd March 2006.

I think politicians got the message that taxation which works in effect retrospectively is electoral suicide.

[AndyTo]

Euro 4/5/6 compliance hasn't made a jot of difference to the NOX emissions of Diesel engines as manufacturers have just got better at getting cars through the EU emissions test. CLICKY
The politicians have tried with legislating manufacturers, but it hasn't worked.

The tax rise is due to an EU ruling which was driven by WHO categorising diesel fumes as a category 1 carcinogen, along with Plutonium and mustard gas. CLICKY

I think it's also driven by the £4bn blackhole in VED since so many cars are now VED exempt, so i'd expect diesel VED to rise over the next few years to match petrol.

[oldnail]

[QUOTE=AndyTo;17834374]Euro 4/5/6 compliance hasn't made a jot of difference to the NOX emissions of Diesel engines as manufacturers have just got better at getting cars through the EU emissions test. CLICKY
The politicians have tried with legislating manufacturers, but it hasn't worked.

Agree with this ... not sure who has disappointed me more, the EU for coming up with such a bad emissions test or the manufacturers for exploiting the emissions test.