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      07-18-2019, 03:24 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
Maybe we should have a referendum (non binding) to see if we should have an election....
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      07-18-2019, 05:56 PM   #332
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I'm sure there are some who are influenced by the figure leading a party but historically I think most have voted for the party and not the prospective PM. After all, there are constituencies that would vote either Labour or Conservative pretty much regardless of who the respective party leader or local candidate is; put the right colour rosette on them and they'll get elected!



The leader might have become unpopular within their party but that doesn't mean they're unpopular with the electorate; for example, I suspect a lot of Tory voters weren't happy when Major replaced Thatcher and at the time it happened I'm not sure the electorate at large wanted Brown instead of Blair....
Staunch Tory or Labour voters don't decide elections. The swing voters in the middle do. And in my opinion it's seriously misguided to think that the leader and potential Prime Minister doesn't influence those votes.

I bet half the Labour voters in Chesterfield don't know who our MP is. I do. But mainly because he's just been in the national press for having an affair with a married woman and over promoting his PA, who are the same person. Great scandal at school, her daughter sits next to my son......
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      07-19-2019, 01:26 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Staunch Tory or Labour voters don't decide elections. The swing voters in the middle do. And in my opinion it's seriously misguided to think that the leader and potential Prime Minister doesn't influence those votes.

I bet half the Labour voters in Chesterfield don't know who our MP is. I do. But mainly because he's just been in the national press for having an affair with a married woman and over promoting his PA, who are the same person. Great scandal at school, her daughter sits next to my son......
Might cost him his seat next time - after all he only won the first time as people moved away from LibDems because of his predecessors expense issues
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      07-19-2019, 02:24 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Staunch Tory or Labour voters don't decide elections. The swing voters in the middle do. And in my opinion it's seriously misguided to think that the leader and potential Prime Minister doesn't influence those votes.
I certainly accept the point about the importance of swing voters and I also see some of those will be influenced by who they think might end-up in Number 10 as a result of their vote.

However, whether that's sufficient to justify an automatic General Election whenever a governing party changes its leader (and therefore the country's PM) is another matter. Personally I don't think it is and, as I said in a previous post, I think the noise around it this time is largely because of the individual who might end-up in Number 10; Thatcher was a long-serving PM - and for many a successful one - but I don't recall the same outcry when the Tory party had an internal coup and replaced her with Major. Who knows, if that hadn't happened perhaps we might not have signed-up to Maastricht and hence the distraction of Brexit (now over three years and counting) would never have arisen!
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      07-19-2019, 03:43 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
And most definitions of democracy say a country is governed through public votes and elected representatives. In this case the final decision is being made by neither.

It is being made by people who are members of a party, but who were not elected by anyone.

As I said, it doesn't seem very democratic in my view. I think it's been a pretty common political discussion point for decades, that our whole system from top to bottom isn't ideal.
Are you new to our democratic system Alex? Has it caught you unawares? Have you been labouring under the impression that you've been voting for the prime minister all these years? Did you notice the name on the voting card?

Seriously I do wonder about people sometimes...
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      07-19-2019, 03:49 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Bryans69 View Post
Understanding it and agreeing with it are two different things. I know how our current system works, just think it's crap. If a party in power 'elects' an new leader, why not be forced to call a general election?

It means a change to the rules, but the Fixed Term Parliament Act shows it can be done
Because that's not the system of democracy we live under, BTW nothing has changed it's been like this for a very long time.

You can disagree with it and say you don't agree but it's a democratic system to call it undemocratic is simple minded and obtuse.

Parliament can vote out any government and call a general election our representatives (that we actually vote for) are supreme and rule the country. (just in case anyone thought it was undemocratic)
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      07-19-2019, 04:52 PM   #337
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Because that's not the system of democracy we live under, BTW nothing has changed it's been like this for a very long time.

You can disagree with it and say you don't agree but it's a democratic system to call it undemocratic is simple minded and obtuse.

Parliament can vote out any government and call a general election our representatives (that we actually vote for) are supreme and rule the country. (just in case anyone thought it was undemocratic)
When was the last time a Govt was voted out by Parliament ? A long fucking time ago.
You spouting 'simple minded and obtuse ' over a democratic process is laughable and hypocritical in the same measure.
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      07-19-2019, 05:33 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by ossi1 View Post
When was the last time a Govt was voted out by Parliament ? A long fucking time ago.
You spouting 'simple minded and obtuse ' over a democratic process is laughable and hypocritical in the same measure.
1979 so in UK parliamentary terms not a long time ago (if you have any understanding of how long we've been a democracy) the first time was in 1742.

Your last sentence is incoherent (at best) so you'll have to try again.
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      07-19-2019, 05:52 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Because that's not the system of democracy we live under, BTW nothing has changed it's been like this for a very long time.

You can disagree with it and say you don't agree but it's a democratic system to call it undemocratic is simple minded and obtuse.

Parliament can vote out any government and call a general election our representatives (that we actually vote for) are supreme and rule the country. (just in case anyone thought it was undemocratic)
I didn't say it was undemocratic, I said it was crap, which is not the same thing.

Alex's point was that the next PM will be votes for by a bunch of fogies at the local Connie club. That is hardly a shining example of democracy at work.

Yes, it is how our system currently works. But surely the current situation suggests that maybe it doesn't work as well as it could...
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      07-20-2019, 03:47 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Are you new to our democratic system Alex? Has it caught you unawares? Have you been labouring under the impression that you've been voting for the prime minister all these years? Did you notice the name on the voting card?

Seriously I do wonder about people sometimes...
Who's rattled your cage Mr Arsey?

Free speech in our democracy allows me to have an opinion on what I do and don't like about our system.

Not liking something is not the same as not understanding it. And repeatedly quoting the system back at me, in an almost autistic way, doesn't mean that when people are voting they don't have the leadership of the party in mind.

Hence why YOU say you could never vote for Labour with Corbyn in charge. But, you're not voting for Corbyn are you......yawn. Fully expecting you to explain our system back to me again, which I already understand, I just don't like or find very democratic in parts.
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      07-20-2019, 06:06 AM   #341
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Are people stupid enough to believe Boris again?

Democracy?......meh!

One of the oldest con tricks in the book and just an illusion to appease the masses.

(and yes....I have fallen for it too).
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      07-21-2019, 04:09 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
1979 so in UK parliamentary terms not a long time ago (if you have any understanding of how long we've been a democracy) the first time was in 1742.

Your last sentence is incoherent (at best) so you'll have to try again.
Thanks. It was a loaded question and my guess is that 79 was probably before the voting age of 90% of this forum

Its never happened since and I'm not sure it happened that often before...well It didn't really.

As for the Incoherent part, that was me pouring scorn on your point about democracy. I guess a remain referendum result would have been democratic in your eyes, yet a leave vote isn't. Simple minded and obtuse you say :-)
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      07-21-2019, 05:30 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by ossi1 View Post
Thanks. It was a loaded question and my guess is that 79 was probably before the voting age of 90% of this forum

Its never happened since and I'm not sure it happened that often before...well It didn't really.

As for the Incoherent part, that was me pouring scorn on your point about democracy. I guess a remain referendum result would have been democratic in your eyes, yet a leave vote isn't. Simple minded and obtuse you say :-)
Been on the wine this afternoon? It's now all incoherent.....
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      07-23-2019, 06:06 AM   #344
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Boris it is!
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      07-23-2019, 06:12 AM   #345
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Boris it is!
And to answer the OP's original question, the answer is a resounding YES
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      07-23-2019, 07:08 AM   #346
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General election in the autumn then.
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      07-23-2019, 07:10 AM   #347
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General election in the autumn then.
Does that mean Labour might have to get down off the fence?

I've always rated Jo Swinson so hopefully her appt, their steadfast Remain stance and the fact they are the least radical will get them lots of seats (as opposed to lots of votes and f all seats...)
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      07-23-2019, 07:30 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Broncho View Post
Boris it is!
FFS.

Nostradamus missed this one.

The Western World as we know it, led by a man called 'Trump' and 'BJ'.
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      07-23-2019, 08:02 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
Does that mean Labour might have to get down off the fence?

I've always rated Jo Swinson so hopefully her appt, their steadfast Remain stance and the fact they are the least radical will get them lots of seats (as opposed to lots of votes and f all seats...)
I couldn't have imagined Jo Swinson as party leader a few years ago, but she does seem to have come a long way. Listening to her recently, I think the party made the right choice, particularly with Ed Davey as the alternative - he did rather too much selling-out during the 2010-15 coalition.

Hopefully a pact with the other Remain parties (Green, Change UK), and strong local support for Remain in some constituencies will see them pick up a decent number of seats.

UK politics needs a sensible middle ground.
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      07-23-2019, 11:38 AM   #350
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      07-23-2019, 12:08 PM   #351
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Now it's just a waiting game for Boris to betray us (not that any of the others wouldn't have).
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      07-23-2019, 01:07 PM   #352
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The country has officially gone down the shitter. I feel like the Polish lady at the local chippy. When she first found out about Brexit she sold her shop and bolted.

Now the UK is officially a laughing stock. Bojo the fucking cock womble. Hope he bites a pylon!
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