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      10-04-2021, 06:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
I responded to this, and the mods deleted my post. Either way, 12fins/inch is Ebay level quality.

All the other things literally do not matter - it’s about surface area and nothing more.
dont worry.. its normal practice here. I once had to dispute (and win) charges from a purchase with a supporting vendor here and well all the negative disappeared from the interactions.. was comically obvious it was about not losing sponsors despite lying and screwing customers when I tried to get an explanation as to why things were deleted and locked etc to make me look like I was the bad guy. thank God I got my money back.
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      10-04-2021, 10:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad14-F30 View Post
But why paint it black? That adds a layer of paint as insulation. Something you don't want on a device made for convection, not radiation.
Not to mention black looks ugly and it shows every single rock chip lol.

Anyways i think one person posted in a different thread he ordered one of these so i am curious to see his datalogs. The dyno performance is not very good.
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      10-04-2021, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Not to mention black looks ugly and it shows every single rock chip lol.

Anyways i think one person posted in a different thread he ordered one of these so i am curious to see his datalogs. The dyno performance is not very good.
the dyno shows a 35 HP increase just from adding the intercooler on stage 1.

The more boost you push to more HP it'll make but even with these numbers, 35HP difference is major
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      10-04-2021, 11:13 AM   #26
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the dyno shows a 35 HP increase just from adding the intercooler on stage 1.

The more boost you push to more HP it'll make but even with these numbers, 35HP difference is major
To clarify, yes compared to stock is it no doubt good. So no question it will make more power. But the IAT rise during the pull is pretty significant. Yes, i know no airflow on the dyno that's why i said im interested in seeing the real world datalogs once someone has it installed.
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      10-05-2021, 05:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad14-F30 View Post
But why paint it black? That adds a layer of paint as insulation. Something you don't want on a device made for convection, not radiation.
Every intercooler has the option of black powdercoat. It doesnít impact anything measurable at all. I like the way it looks on the car and most locals Iíve seen the FMICs on run the black powdercoated type.
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      10-05-2021, 09:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MTWO View Post
Every intercooler has the option of black powdercoat. It doesnít impact anything measurable at all. I like the way it looks on the car and most locals Iíve seen the FMICs on run the black powdercoated type.
Maybe you don't care, but it DOES effect the performance. Just physics (Thermodynamics to be precise). Considering we are all generally looking to lower IAT's as much as possible, why hinder the intercoolers ability to do its job? Especially with a high fin count, tightly packed intercooler. If you prefer look over function, I can understand. Personally, I prefer function over look on this critical component.

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      10-05-2021, 10:28 AM   #29
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If it is powder coated...
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      10-05-2021, 10:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad14-F30 View Post
Maybe you don't care, but it DOES effect the performance. Just physics (Thermodynamics to be precise). Considering we are all generally looking to lower IAT's as much as possible, why hinder the intercoolers ability to do its job? Especially with a high fin count, tightly packed intercooler. If you prefer look over function, I can understand. Personally, I prefer function over look on this critical component.

Lol, just ignore him. He spent $700 on an IC with Ebay levels of performance because it had the right logo on it.
He just likes to argue, and has little understanding on the matter. Not worth the time
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      10-05-2021, 12:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
To clarify, yes compared to stock is it no doubt good. So no question it will make more power. But the IAT rise during the pull is pretty significant. Yes, i know no airflow on the dyno that's why i said im interested in seeing the real world datalogs once someone has it installed.
I'm no expert here, could you share what you are comparing to when you say the IAT rise is significant?

A lot of times I see people refer to a 4th gear pull (2500-6800ish rpm?) as a benchmark for logging data.

In this case they are doing a pull from 4th @ ~3200 to 6th @ ~6600 with shifts occurring around 6800-6900rpm.

In 4th gear the IAT drops 1 degree - from 88 to 87. It rises 5 degrees in 5th to 92, and another 8 degrees in 6th to 100, before ultimately peaking at 103 after the throttle is closed.

12 degree total rise during WOT, 15 degree overall.

Last edited by SuperLomi; 10-05-2021 at 12:31 PM..
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      10-05-2021, 12:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLomi View Post
I'm no expert here, could you share what you are comparing to when you say the IAT rise is significant?

A lot of times I see people refer to a 4th gear pull (2500-6800ish rpm?) as a benchmark for logging data.

In this case they are doing a pull from 4th @ ~3200 to 6th @ ~6600 with shifts occurring around 6800-6900rpm.

In 4th gear the IAT drops 1 degree - from 88 to 87. It rises 5 degrees in 5th to 92, and another 8 degrees in 6th to 100, before ultimately peaking at 103 after the throttle is closed.

12F degree total rise during WOT, 15F degree overall.
15F degree rise during the pull and 28F degrees (at peak) over ambient temperature which is 75F.

To me, 30F over ambient on stage 1 tune is significant.
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      10-05-2021, 01:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
15F degree rise during the pull and 28F degrees (at peak) over ambient temperature which is 75F.

To me, 30F over ambient on stage 1 tune is significant.
Sure, but I'm trying to understand what you are comparing to? Can you share that?

I'm not making any judgements. Just trying to understand.
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      10-05-2021, 02:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLomi View Post
Sure, but I'm trying to understand what you are comparing to? Can you share that?

I'm not making any judgements. Just trying to understand.
Here's a 2-6th (although i didnt completely rev out 6th due to room) pull i just did two days ago with the VRSF Race. I ended at a lower IAT than i started at. https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/1...=4-5-7-9-10-17

Here's a 5th and 6th gear pull when i used to have the VRSF 5'' stepped IC installed, which is significantly smaller than a race IC. It might be a little shorter pull than the dyno would (would need to check timestamps), but the IAT control seems comparable to the PTF race. https://datazap.me/u/thejeremyman9/5...data=4-9-10-21

Again we need real world datalogs once someone has this installed but for a race IC it does not seem particularly impressive.
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      10-05-2021, 02:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLomi View Post
Sure, but I'm trying to understand what you are comparing to? Can you share that?

I'm not making any judgements. Just trying to understand.
No offense taken, and actually a great question. We are comparing it to other intercooler logs we've seen.

It's hard to have a basis of "good" and "bad" without defining what they mean.
The BEST ICs are typically about 10F to 20F above ambient. Outside of that, it starts to get more trivial.

Letís say you live in a region that doesn't go over 75F ambient, this intercooler or the like may be fine for daily driving and occasional fun, however

If you track your car, do Auto cross or even drive hard, it's going to be difficult if not impossible to keep the intake temperatures in the optimal range considering you won't have enough time to allow the IC to disburse all the heat.

Remember this is just a stage 1 tune, this doesn't even factor in running a hotter stage 2 tune, or a bigger turbo, or higher ambient temperatures.

Here is a real world example:

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1862698
A member dynoíd their car, and already maxed out the intercooler. This lead to a loss of 30whp on the 3rd pull!




This is with a 2 minute cool down (approx) between pulls and unknown fans, but itís a good illustration on how inadequate IC performance can measurably impact you in the real world.

Basically, give yourself some sort of buffer, especially if you have bigger plans.

Edit: I actually wrote this at work, which reading it back before I edited - made absolutely zero sense. I canít multitask for crap. Either way, Iíve edited this post just to make my thoughts more concise, all while keeping it to the topic at hand.
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Last edited by AmuroRay; 10-05-2021 at 08:44 PM.. Reason: Grammar, to make it more concise
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      10-05-2021, 08:26 PM   #36
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Oh boy, you guys are harsh!

We love data and we realize you do too, so let's have some fun with this Referring to this data gathering thread posted recently:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=421

First thing to realize is this was done on a Stage 1 vehicle.

Another thing we want to mention is being respectful to all other companies in this industry, we will refrain from commenting on other company's products and design choices. We focus on our own product and the only product we're looking to discuss is our own. There are many aspects to intercooler design, from power goals to intended modifications, octane and tuning and we could certainly pin point many areas for improvement in other similar units out there, but, every design has its reasons and not just talking FPI or any other 1 dimensional look at it . We'll leave it at that.

As for the car, no other mods but the intercooler swap, done in a dyno room with limited airflow (very important piece of data in this test, as many are quick to judge and compare with on-road capture datalogs that see orders of magnitude more airflow to the front of the car).

PTF Race intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7f195af9a7
Stock intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7e99770ad3

- Starting IAT: 90F
- Ending IAT: 100F
- Starting Vehicle Speed: 45mph
- Ending Vehicle Speed: 166mph
- Total IAT rise of 10-12F over a 9 second run, in a dyno room. Depending on how you look at the log, which side of the FMIC intercooler fence you sit on we like what we see here

What's really nice here is the 45-127mph portion of this run (3200rpm@4th gear to 6500rpm5th gear) IAT stays within 2F of starting IAT ending at 100F final IAT at a speed of 166mph.
On the Stock intercooler, same 45-127mph WOT run ends 27F higher than starting IAT (99 to 126F), and by the end of the 6th gear IAT is 164F!

We feel very strongly that our intercooler is designed exceptionally well for any bolt-on mod scenario an N55 owner may be targeting. Is it the cheapest intercooler money can buy, no, but it's one that will certainly not underperform especially in comparison to any 5" eBay unit Price reflects our time in design and CFD (which many especially so called 'eBay' intercoolers never do, not that there's anything wrong with buying anything on eBay, its just an e-commerce site everyone uses especially with COVID still around in many parts of the World), on-dyno and road testing of multiple designs and manufacturing costs. Our unit also comes with DHL shipping anywhere in USA/Canada included FREE of additional charge and a lifetime warranty.

Hope you all stay healthy and blessed, cheers to all, now fire away!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, intercoolers have a high quality powdercoat (certainly not paint! ) used on heat-exchangers around the World including most sold on this forum. For anyone that doesn't like the look of it in black, its also available in silver.

Last edited by proTUNING Freaks; 10-05-2021 at 08:40 PM..
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      10-05-2021, 08:41 PM   #37
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Edited my post to remove mentioned of any other brand.

Look, there is nothing magical or special here outside of a few well placed shop fans in front of the bumper.

The charge row fins (front) have nothing to do with the internal fin count of an intercooler. Take that for whatís itís worth.

Itís all about surface area, and anyone with 5 minutes to read through my post history can see numerous sources, both from the worlds largest intercooler manufacturers, to real world examples.

Iím not going to post links, charts, graphs or anything else. This is your thread and I was responding to a question, so Iíll leave on this note.

Fin density matters, because fin density increase surface area.

Last edited by AmuroRay; 10-05-2021 at 09:29 PM..
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      10-06-2021, 12:06 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proTUNING Freaks View Post
Oh boy, you guys are harsh!

We love data and we realize you do too, so let's have some fun with this Referring to this data gathering thread posted recently:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=421

First thing to realize is this was done on a Stage 1 vehicle.

Another thing we want to mention is being respectful to all other companies in this industry, we will refrain from commenting on other company's products and design choices. We focus on our own product and the only product we're looking to discuss is our own. There are many aspects to intercooler design, from power goals to intended modifications, octane and tuning and we could certainly pin point many areas for improvement in other similar units out there, but, every design has its reasons and not just talking FPI or any other 1 dimensional look at it . We'll leave it at that.

As for the car, no other mods but the intercooler swap, done in a dyno room with limited airflow (very important piece of data in this test, as many are quick to judge and compare with on-road capture datalogs that see orders of magnitude more airflow to the front of the car).

PTF Race intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7f195af9a7
Stock intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7e99770ad3

- Starting IAT: 90F
- Ending IAT: 100F
- Starting Vehicle Speed: 45mph
- Ending Vehicle Speed: 166mph
- Total IAT rise of 10-12F over a 9 second run, in a dyno room. Depending on how you look at the log, which side of the FMIC intercooler fence you sit on we like what we see here

What's really nice here is the 45-127mph portion of this run (3200rpm@4th gear to 6500rpm5th gear) IAT stays within 2F of starting IAT ending at 100F final IAT at a speed of 166mph.
On the Stock intercooler, same 45-127mph WOT run ends 27F higher than starting IAT (99 to 126F), and by the end of the 6th gear IAT is 164F!

We feel very strongly that our intercooler is designed exceptionally well for any bolt-on mod scenario an N55 owner may be targeting. Is it the cheapest intercooler money can buy, no, but it's one that will certainly not underperform especially in comparison to any 5" eBay unit Price reflects our time in design and CFD (which many especially so called 'eBay' intercoolers never do, not that there's anything wrong with buying anything on eBay, its just an e-commerce site everyone uses especially with COVID still around in many parts of the World), on-dyno and road testing of multiple designs and manufacturing costs. Our unit also comes with DHL shipping anywhere in USA/Canada included FREE of additional charge and a lifetime warranty.

Hope you all stay healthy and blessed, cheers to all, now fire away!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, intercoolers have a high quality powdercoat (certainly not paint! ) used on heat-exchangers around the World including most sold on this forum. For anyone that doesn't like the look of it in black, its also available in silver.
Yeah we are, good response

I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying this IC is bad, but rather waiting to see real world data logs. I agree as i noted above that dyno is a different situation due to airflow and other factors. I am pretty sure someone just posted in the other thread a few days ago they bought this IC, so waiting for their datalogs. I'm not aruging with any of the data you presented either; this IC should be able to control IATs on a stage 1 car with no problem.

And to be clear, i enjoy any new product coming to market. Nothing against this IC at all, and looking forward to evaluate it more through datalogs, etc. Whenever something new comes just believe i am going to scrutanize it if nothing more than just to be educated on it.
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      10-06-2021, 05:34 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by proTUNING Freaks View Post
Oh boy, you guys are harsh!

We love data and we realize you do too, so let's have some fun with this Referring to this data gathering thread posted recently:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=421

First thing to realize is this was done on a Stage 1 vehicle.

Another thing we want to mention is being respectful to all other companies in this industry, we will refrain from commenting on other company's products and design choices. We focus on our own product and the only product we're looking to discuss is our own. There are many aspects to intercooler design, from power goals to intended modifications, octane and tuning and we could certainly pin point many areas for improvement in other similar units out there, but, every design has its reasons and not just talking FPI or any other 1 dimensional look at it . We'll leave it at that.

As for the car, no other mods but the intercooler swap, done in a dyno room with limited airflow (very important piece of data in this test, as many are quick to judge and compare with on-road capture datalogs that see orders of magnitude more airflow to the front of the car).

PTF Race intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7f195af9a7
Stock intercooler Datalog (on-dyno): https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=614b...729b7e99770ad3

- Starting IAT: 90F
- Ending IAT: 100F
- Starting Vehicle Speed: 45mph
- Ending Vehicle Speed: 166mph
- Total IAT rise of 10-12F over a 9 second run, in a dyno room. Depending on how you look at the log, which side of the FMIC intercooler fence you sit on we like what we see here

What's really nice here is the 45-127mph portion of this run (3200rpm@4th gear to 6500rpm5th gear) IAT stays within 2F of starting IAT ending at 100F final IAT at a speed of 166mph.
On the Stock intercooler, same 45-127mph WOT run ends 27F higher than starting IAT (99 to 126F), and by the end of the 6th gear IAT is 164F!

We feel very strongly that our intercooler is designed exceptionally well for any bolt-on mod scenario an N55 owner may be targeting. Is it the cheapest intercooler money can buy, no, but it's one that will certainly not underperform especially in comparison to any 5" eBay unit Price reflects our time in design and CFD (which many especially so called 'eBay' intercoolers never do, not that there's anything wrong with buying anything on eBay, its just an e-commerce site everyone uses especially with COVID still around in many parts of the World), on-dyno and road testing of multiple designs and manufacturing costs. Our unit also comes with DHL shipping anywhere in USA/Canada included FREE of additional charge and a lifetime warranty.

Hope you all stay healthy and blessed, cheers to all, now fire away!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, intercoolers have a high quality powdercoat (certainly not paint! ) used on heat-exchangers around the World including most sold on this forum. For anyone that doesn't like the look of it in black, its also available in silver.
Yeah we are, good response

I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying this IC is bad, but rather waiting to see real world data logs. I agree as i noted above that dyno is a different situation due to airflow and other factors. I am pretty sure someone just posted in the other thread a few days ago they bought this IC, so waiting for their datalogs. I'm not aruging with any of the data you presented either; this IC should be able to control IATs on a stage 1 car with no problem.

And to be clear, i enjoy any new product coming to market. Nothing against this IC at all, and looking forward to evaluate it more through datalogs, etc. Whenever something new comes just believe i am going to scrutanize it if nothing more than just to be educated on it.
I just wanted to add a comment to this thread on black coating an aluminum intercooler. An intercooler is coated for two reasons:

1) to change the color to black to have its appearance blend in.
2) to provide protection for the fins

Several types of coatings were mentioned in the comments and they can be drastically different.

Black Spray Paint- for appearance only. Offers no protection to fins. I would avoid using a rattle can because it's likely to glob and build up in the fins, potentially effecting cooling. Professional painters use a trick when spray painting in-wall audio speaker grilles to match wall color. They thin the paint out quite a bit with paint thinner which allows them to evenly mist the surface until they get just the right amount of color applied with no chance of too much anywhere. Build up on the surface depends on the skill of the painter.

Black Powder Coat- for appearance only. Offers little actual fin protection. I would absolutely not powder coat an intercooler. Powder coat actually builds up on the surface. I could see it definitely effecting cooling because the fins are so small. Buildup on the surface depends on the skill and experience of the powder coater. High tech powder coating guns might have 100 different setting combinations.

Black Anodizing- for appearance only. No protection added. Standard aluminum anodizing offers the best color change option with the least chance of cooling being effected. Think of standard anodizing being like a stain for aluminum. It doesn't build up on the surface. For example, of the four methods that I'm discussing here standard aluminum anodizing could be used on screw threads without causing a problem of them no longer fitting.

Type3 Black Anodizing- for both appearance and fin protection. Type3 is a special process that costs roughly twice as much as standard aluminum anodizing. It does build up on the surface but it offers a hard protective coating to the aluminum underneath.

I haven't researched Type3 anodizing with aluminum Intercoolers specifically but that would be the coating with the best chance of changing appearance and protection to the delicate fins.

Note: When I have mentioned material build up, I'm talking about fractions of a thousandth of an inch. So build up in one method may be acceptable for one application and unacceptable for another. So you may be able to coat a part satisfactorily, but the same method might not be used to coat bolt threads.

Hope this helps!
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      10-06-2021, 02:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmuroRay View Post
Edited my post to remove mentioned of any other brand.

Look, there is nothing magical or special here outside of a few well placed shop fans in front of the bumper.

The charge row fins (front) have nothing to do with the internal fin count of an intercooler. Take that for whatís itís worth.

Itís all about surface area, and anyone with 5 minutes to read through my post history can see numerous sources, both from the worlds largest intercooler manufacturers, to real world examples.

Iím not going to post links, charts, graphs or anything else. This is your thread and I was responding to a question, so Iíll leave on this note.

Fin density matters, because fin density increase surface area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Yeah we are, good response

I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying this IC is bad, but rather waiting to see real world data logs. I agree as i noted above that dyno is a different situation due to airflow and other factors. I am pretty sure someone just posted in the other thread a few days ago they bought this IC, so waiting for their datalogs. I'm not aruging with any of the data you presented either; this IC should be able to control IATs on a stage 1 car with no problem.

And to be clear, i enjoy any new product coming to market. Nothing against this IC at all, and looking forward to evaluate it more through datalogs, etc. Whenever something new comes just believe i am going to scrutanize it if nothing more than just to be educated on it.
Fair enough and thank you

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Originally Posted by johnung View Post
I just wanted to add a comment to this thread on black coating an aluminum intercooler. An intercooler is coated for two reasons:

1) to change the color to black to have its appearance blend in.
2) to provide protection for the fins

Several types of coatings were mentioned in the comments and they can be drastically different.

Black Spray Paint- for appearance only. Offers no protection to fins. I would avoid using a rattle can because it's likely to glob and build up in the fins, potentially effecting cooling. Professional painters use a trick when spray painting in-wall audio speaker grilles to match wall color. They thin the paint out quite a bit with paint thinner which allows them to evenly mist the surface until they get just the right amount of color applied with no chance of too much anywhere. Build up on the surface depends on the skill of the painter.

Black Powder Coat- for appearance only. Offers little actual fin protection. I would absolutely not powder coat an intercooler. Powder coat actually builds up on the surface. I could see it definitely effecting cooling because the fins are so small. Buildup on the surface depends on the skill and experience of the powder coater. High tech powder coating guns might have 100 different setting combinations.

Black Anodizing- for appearance only. No protection added. Standard aluminum anodizing offers the best color change option with the least chance of cooling being effected. Think of standard anodizing being like a stain for aluminum. It doesn't build up on the surface. For example, of the four methods that I'm discussing here standard aluminum anodizing could be used on screw threads without causing a problem of them no longer fitting.

Type3 Black Anodizing- for both appearance and fin protection. Type3 is a special process that costs roughly twice as much as standard aluminum anodizing. It does build up on the surface but it offers a hard protective coating to the aluminum underneath.

I haven't researched Type3 anodizing with aluminum Intercoolers specifically but that would be the coating with the best chance of changing appearance and protection to the delicate fins.

Note: When I have mentioned material build up, I'm talking about fractions of a thousandth of an inch. So build up in one method may be acceptable for one application and unacceptable for another. So you may be able to coat a part satisfactorily, but the same method might not be used to coat bolt threads.

Hope this helps!
Thanks for sharing, spot on
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      10-06-2021, 03:35 PM   #41
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MTWO let us know when you get this installed and post some datalogs please
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      10-08-2021, 08:45 AM   #42
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MTWO let us know when you get this installed and post some datalogs please
+1
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      10-09-2021, 05:08 PM   #43
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MTWO let us know when you get this installed and post some datalogs please
Canít wait to install, I got it yesterday and it looks so nice! My go to shop is booked up for about a week, hopefully install it soon and get some street logs.
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      10-13-2021, 09:52 AM   #44
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Canít wait to install, I got it yesterday and it looks so nice! My go to shop is booked up for about a week, hopefully install it soon and get some street logs.
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