[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yes I know on non m sump cars oil starvation is the issue.


But simply saying if the oil level is topped up everything is fine is false. There is much more to it than that, and one of them is what type of oil you use. Try taking bmw ll01 FE to the track for a large number of sessions and tell me about bearing wear. FE fuels are only optimized for fuel economy not wear protection.

The point that I'm trying to get at is if the worst BMW LL-01 certified oil that I can get for cheap at Walmart is sufficient for the engine to last over 200k miles, why would I bother to spend any more on a better oil?

Does the delta in the outcome matter at that point?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The point that I'm trying to get at is if the worst BMW LL-01 certified oil that I can get for cheap at Walmart is sufficient for the engine to last over 200k miles, why would I bother to spend any more on a better oil?

Does the delta in the outcome matter at that point?

It's true, you should buy the cheapest but the best oils to protect your engine. Don't fall for the boutique oil trap, it also doesn't have to be ll01 if you have a properly design timing chain like the n55 engine.


1) Castrol 0w40/0w30
2) PPE/quaker state euro 5w40

Super cheap at WalMart.

[123Britt]

Quaker State Ultra Durability

5qt Jug for under $19
.
Think that this is rebranded Shell / PP Euro.
.
.

OCI at 5K -- think this is a good choice.

I just bought 21 Qts for better or worse. Next 3 Changes will be QSUD here.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by 123Britt

Quaker State Ultra Durability

5qt Jug for under $19
.
Think that this is rebranded Shell / PP Euro.
.
.

OCI at 5K -- think this is a good choice.

I just bought 21 Qts for better or worse. Next 3 Changes will be QSUD here.

It's quaker state euro 5w40 which is the Pennzoil rebrand (because shell owns both Pennzoil and quaker state).

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-St...uart/737859365


But yes very good oil for very cheap, I personally run PPE 5w40.


For n20 guys I recommend ll01 oils or at the very minimum an oil with API SP because that has a timing chain test too. So PPE 5w40 or quaker state euro 5w40, or motul xcess gen 2 5w40 (a bit better than the PPE 5w40, but alot more money).

[123Britt]

Qsud 5w-40 euro

[F87source]

Originally Posted by 123Britt

Qsud 5w-40 euro

Wow I've never seen that packaging before, can you send me the certifications on the back?


But yeah it looks correct.

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

No matter how much an oil may exceed LL-01 specifications, if the oil sump system can't handle sustained high G sweepers, the engine will still be starved of oil and shit itself.

I think we are off on a tangent and I would not take such a car to the track. I can only speak to my B58 which does not appear to experience any issue with oil uptake on the track. Not sure if OEM B58 oil pan baffling is part of the reason.
Getting back to oil, LL-01 is the minimum spec I would pour in on the street and perfectly fine with it but I would upgrade for the track because I am looking for better HTHS and NOACK under sustained intense operating temperatures and conditions.

[123Britt]

Originally Posted by F87source

Wow I've never seen that packaging before, can you send me the certifications on the back?


But yeah it looks correct.

Here: SN PLUS --- PP EURO Equalvalent

[F87source]

Originally Posted by 123Britt

Here: SN PLUS --- PP EURO Equalvalent

Thanks!

Yup that's it the PPE 5w40 equivalent. Looks like they have a different looking label too. It's not on the website though.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Th3Walrus

PP Euro 5w30 is LL-04, not LL-01.
5w40 is LL-01.

Irrelevant. US moved to ULSG over a year ago.

[edycol]

So several clarifications.
LL01 and LL04 are oils from same parents.
Both approvals require HTHS of 3.5.
Difference is SAPS (sulfated ash and phosphorus) by product. LL04 is designed for vehicles with after treatment equipment (DPF) that was mandatory in EU in 2004. SAPS is main culprit behind clogging DPF's, so lower SAPS oils saw market around that time. It was never used in the US as US and Canada had high sulfur gasoline which is main culprit behind additive deterioration. However, since 01/01/2017 gas is ultra low sulfur.
Basically, from kinematic viscosity stand point as well as HTHS, LL01 and LL04 are same oils.
However, for at the limit use, LL01 is better. Even if HTHS same, if breakdown of viscosity happens around journal bearings, piston rings etc. additives are last defense. Oils with higher Zinc levels will do better in this case, and LL01 generally have Zinc above 1000ppm.
Exception is Shell (Pennzoil) which has new additives like Zirconium that compensate for Zinc.
Now, going to UOA. I am not thrilled about KV100 being 10.12 after 5k. IMO that is substantial shearing. Personally, if I owned B48 engine outside warranty I would go MB229.52 approval in addition to LL04. Motul 5W30 X-Clean + (must be Plus) would be my choice, if not, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 (doesn't have LL04, but long story short, M1 has Esters and cannot satisfy oxidation requirements of 2018 LL approvals update). Reason for MB229.52 is that it has very stringent LSPI test and some B48 had LSPI issues mostly due to being in eco mode, lots of boost at very low rpms.
Another oil that has LSPI test, but far less stringent is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 or QSUD 5W40 but only with API SP certificate. API SP has LSPI test but nothing like MB229.52.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

So several clarifications.
LL01 and LL04 are oils from same parents.
Both approvals require HTHS of 3.5.
Difference is SAPS (sulfated ash and phosphorus) by product. LL04 is designed for vehicles with after treatment equipment (DPF) that was mandatory in EU in 2004. SAPS is main culprit behind clogging DPF's, so lower SAPS oils saw market around that time. It was never used in the US as US and Canada had high sulfur gasoline which is main culprit behind additive deterioration. However, since 01/01/2017 gas is ultra low sulfur.
Basically, from kinematic viscosity stand point as well as HTHS, LL01 and LL04 are same oils.
However, for at the limit use, LL01 is better. Even if HTHS same, if breakdown of viscosity happens around journal bearings, piston rings etc. additives are last defense. Oils with higher Zinc levels will do better in this case, and LL01 generally have Zinc above 1000ppm.
Exception is Shell (Pennzoil) which has new additives like Zirconium that compensate for Zinc.
Now, going to UOA. I am not thrilled about KV100 being 10.12 after 5k. IMO that is substantial shearing. Personally, if I owned B48 engine outside warranty I would go MB229.52 approval in addition to LL04. Motul 5W30 X-Clean + (must be Plus) would be my choice, if not, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 (doesn't have LL04, but long story short, M1 has Esters and cannot satisfy oxidation requirements of 2018 LL approvals update). Reason for MB229.52 is that it has very stringent LSPI test and some B48 had LSPI issues mostly due to being in eco mode, lots of boost at very low rpms.
Another oil that has LSPI test, but far less stringent is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 or QSUD 5W40 but only with API SP certificate. API SP has LSPI test but nothing like MB229.52.

This is the best advice you guys will get on the forum about oil, for those of you who don't know he is one of the most reputable members from BITOG, and has a huge expanse of knowledge.

[auburnf30x]

This is escalating far beyond I intended it to be. I am also a BITOG member for the past decade plus. My original point being, it is completely okay to run PPE 5W-30 for 5K miles.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by auburnf30x

This is escalating far beyond I intended it to be. I am also a BITOG member for the past decade plus. My original point being, it is completely okay to run PPE 5W-30 for 5K miles.

No disagreement here. Just disagreement on people who say certifications don't matter, and all you need for track use is a topped up oil level (if oil starvation was not a concern.)

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by F87source

No disagreement here. Just disagreement on people who say certifications don't matter, and all you need for track use is a topped up oil level (if oil starvation was not a concern.)

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with some definitive outcomes of the differences between LL-01 certified motor oils for track use.

Will the difference between a "lower" LL-01 oil mean I will only be able to run 25 minute sessions and not 50 minute sessions? Will my engine only last 190,000 miles instead of 200,000 miles with mixed use?

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The point that I'm trying to get at is if the worst BMW LL-01 certified oil that I can get for cheap at Walmart is sufficient for the engine to last over 200k miles, why would I bother to spend any more on a better oil?

If you've got an N20/26 the answer is 'timing chain'. The 01 in 'LL01' stands for 2001, when the spec for that oil was formulated. Engine needs have changed since 2001. I use Liqui Moly Molygen 5w-30. It has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals. This standard went into effect in 2020, so if there was a BMW equivalent it would be called LL20. GF-6A oils are backward-compatible for older vehicles. GF-6B oils are lower viscosity, so don't use those unless your engine is rated to use 0w-16.

API SP is the new engine oil standard developed to address the critical needs including chain wear, Low Speed Pre-Ignition, and deposit formation.
GF-6 is the newest ILSAC engine oil performance standard aimed at improving fuel economy and enhancing engine capabilities for passenger cars. ... GF-6 will provide low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI) and timing chain wear protection while improving piston cleanliness and fuel economy.

At $35-$40 for 5 liters it's maybe $10 more than LL01 comparable oils, but if ten bucks is a deal breaker you should be driving a Camry. If you can find another oil that's cheaper and has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals then by all means use it. For example, Mobil 1, Mobil Super, and Mobil Full Synthetic all have GF-6 approvals.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

If you've got an N20/26 the answer is 'timing chain'. The 01 in 'LL01' stands for 2001, when the spec for that oil was formulated. Engine needs have changed since 2001. I use Liqui Moly Molygen 5w-30. It has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals. This standard went into effect in 2020, so if there was a BMW equivalent it would be called LL20. GF-6A oils are backward-compatible for older vehicles. GF-6B oils are lower viscosity, so don't use those unless your engine is rated to use 0w-16.

API SP is the new engine oil standard developed to address the critical needs including chain wear, Low Speed Pre-Ignition, and deposit formation.
GF-6 is the newest ILSAC engine oil performance standard aimed at improving fuel economy and enhancing engine capabilities for passenger cars. ... GF-6 will provide low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI) and timing chain wear protection while improving piston cleanliness and fuel economy.

At $35-$40 for 5 liters it's maybe $10 more than LL01 comparable oils, but if ten bucks is a deal breaker you should be driving a Camry. If you can find another oil that's cheaper and has API SP and ILSAC GF-6A approvals then by all means use it. For example, Mobil 1, Mobil Super, and Mobil Full Synthetic all have GF-6 approvals.

A $10 difference isn't the issue. If it were the issue, I wouldn't be tracking the car. The question is why am I going to spend $10 more on snake oil each time when it doesn't offer any additional benefit in the usable life of the car up to 200,000 miles.

[Billfitz]

If you're running a API SP/ILSAC GF-6A grade lubricant there's no point. OTOH I wouldn't settle for an LL01 rated oil that's not API SP/ILSAC GF-6A.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

If you're running a API SP/ILSAC GF-6A grade lubricant there's no point. OTOH I wouldn't settle for an LL01 rated oil that's not API SP/ILSAC GF-6A.

Oil cannot be ILSAC GF6 and LL01 or LL04.
Last update to LL01 and LL04 was in 2018.
I will elaborate more on this later. Driving to Chicago now.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by edycol

Oil cannot be ILSAC GF6 and LL01 or LL04.

I know. It's better.
Part of the reason why BMW has it's own proprietary LL classifications that don't correspond to API and ILSAC classifications is to make it difficult for the average person to know what oil they can use other than BMW. That's why we keep having threads like this one ad infinitum.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I know. It's better.

It is ok oil for my minivan. For BMW? No.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by auburnf30x

This is escalating far beyond I intended it to be. I am also a BITOG member for the past decade plus. My original point being, it is completely okay to run PPE 5W-30 for 5K miles.

Absolutely it is OK. LL17FE that BMW uses is basically way thinned out version of LL04, for MOG purposes of course.