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      01-12-2019, 12:56 PM   #23
thescouselander
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Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
The normal key transmits in the same way as the comfort access key - that's how the keyless start works.


It's actually keyless start that's is the issue. It's not such a big deal that a theif can open the doors - the real problem is that they can start the engine with a relay attack. In terms of key less start both the comfort access key and normal key are exactly the same.
I don't think that is true. Isn't it the car that looks for the key in order to start. The key isn't constantly transmitting and therefore isn't at risk through relay theft.

Even if the setup is challenge and response that is still susceptible to a relay attack. The relay links are two way so when the car sends a signal out it is related to the key and when the key responds with its code that's relayed back to the car.


The bottom line is the key communicates with the car via an RF signal which can be intercepted and relayed.
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      01-12-2019, 12:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I don't think that is true. Isn't it the car that looks for the key in order to start. The key isn't constantly transmitting and therefore isn't at risk through relay theft.
Exactly, itís the comfort access solution as opppsed to keyless where the relay theft issue arose.

Iíve heard that theyíve resolved the issue on newer cars. I know two people that have had their BMWs with comfort access stolen - personally Iíve avoided Comfort Access on all of our cars. If if did have it Iíd get a faraday / RFID pouch and consider a steering lock.

We have CCTV covering the drive so thatís another thing that could be a deterrent but having seen footage of these thefts theyíre pretty good at covering their faces and keeping their other car out of sight.
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      01-12-2019, 02:05 PM   #25
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its really annoying these days,it makes you think if its worth having anything nice.
basically if they want your car they will get it whatever it takes im afraid.
there not bothered about security or cctv,so if you over protect everything they will just break in and threaten you for the keys...
there a different breed of vermin these days no police around when things happen,prisons are like holiday camps if your that way inclined so this is only going to get worse..
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      01-12-2019, 03:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Even if the setup is challenge and response that is still susceptible to a relay attack. The relay links are two way so when the car sends a signal out it is related to the key and when the key responds with its code that's relayed back to the car.


The bottom line is the key communicates with the car via an RF signal which can be intercepted and relayed.
There really is no risk if you don't have comfort access. It just doesn't work like that.

But, if it makes you feel more secure, keep it in the pouch, not like it's doing any harm I guess.
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      01-12-2019, 03:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by CF-F30 View Post
its really annoying these days,it makes you think if its worth having anything nice.
basically if they want your car they will get it whatever it takes im afraid.
there not bothered about security or cctv,so if you over protect everything they will just break in and threaten you for the keys...
there a different breed of vermin these days no police around when things happen,prisons are like holiday camps if your that way inclined so this is only going to get worse..
Depends where you live and how hardened, organised and knowledgable the criminals are.

In a lot of cities, that sort of break in happens a lot. A few years ago in south Sheffield people were being followed home from work and criminals were forcibly taking the keys as people entered their homes. Least secure time.

But in other areas it really isn't as much of a risk. That's why insurance companies have postcode zones to identify the worst areas, and there is a huge risk difference between best and worst.

Chesterfield is somewhere beteeen the middle and lowest risk. I'm reliably informed by a local policeman friend that the thieves in Chesterfield currently aren't all that sophisticated.

A newish alarm box on the side of the house is usually enough to make them walk on to a softer target. There's not much targeting of cars and it's generally more opportunistic theft. Different 10 miles up the road in Sheffield though.
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      01-12-2019, 04:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Even if the setup is challenge and response that is still susceptible to a relay attack. The relay links are two way so when the car sends a signal out it is related to the key and when the key responds with its code that's relayed back to the car.


The bottom line is the key communicates with the car via an RF signal which can be intercepted and relayed.
There really is no risk if you don't have comfort access. It just doesn't work like that.

But, if it makes you feel more secure, keep it in the pouch, not like it's doing any harm I guess.
How does it work then? Should be easy enough to test - maybe I'll try tomorrow. I'll get in the car, lock the doors with the key and if it still starts then there's a risk.
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      01-13-2019, 06:59 AM   #29
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How does it work then? Should be easy enough to test - maybe I'll try tomorrow. I'll get in the car, lock the doors with the key and if it still starts then there's a risk.
That is a good way to test your theory
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      01-13-2019, 07:11 AM   #30
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That is a good way to test your theory
Not perfect though. Locking the car with the key inside might just lock the doors in the same way as pressing the central locking button on the dash.
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      01-13-2019, 07:23 AM   #31
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But the car shouldn't start if you try to start it and it should show up on the dash saying, key not detected.
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      01-13-2019, 07:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
How does it work then? Should be easy enough to test - maybe I'll try tomorrow. I'll get in the car, lock the doors with the key and if it still starts then there's a risk.
So the real question you want answered is, once you have gained access to the vehicle if it detects the key is present will it start even if the immobiliser hasn't been deactivated first by using the key fob to open the door?
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      01-13-2019, 08:02 AM   #33
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How does it work then? Should be easy enough to test - maybe I'll try tomorrow. I'll get in the car, lock the doors with the key and if it still starts then there's a risk.
So the real question you want answered is, once you have gained access to the vehicle if it detects the key is present will it start even if the immobiliser hasn't been deactivated first by using the key fob to open the door?
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob and in that case I don't think I'll be bothering with the RF bag now.
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      01-13-2019, 08:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob.
Ignition didn't come on at all?
If that's the case then that's good for the cars without comfort access
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      01-13-2019, 08:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooded View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob.
Ignition didn't come on at all?
If that's the case then that's good for the cars without comfort access
Yes, absolutely nothing - good news.
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      01-13-2019, 09:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob and in that case I don't think I'll be bothering with the RF bag now.
I thought that was the case and that only 'comfort access' cars were at risk of relay theft.

Thanks for testing it.....it does clarify the theory.
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      01-13-2019, 02:00 PM   #37
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I have GAP, Disklock and auto watch ghost. The house has CCTV
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      01-13-2019, 05:32 PM   #38
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just read this article,
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/bla...-you--15671367

this is what they do if they cant remotely hack and start the car with their hacking device.
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      01-13-2019, 07:05 PM   #39
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Nice. I might not leave my keys on view. But they are easily found in a drawer by the front door if anyone kicks the door down.

One other thing I do is make sure our cars are parked in reverse on the drive. Don't catch the eye as much, because it's not easy to see exactly what they are for someone driving or walking by.
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      01-15-2019, 04:19 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob and in that case I don't think I'll be bothering with the RF bag now.
I tried exactly the same process but my ignition came on, and i don't have comfort opening, strange how two similar cars have two different outcomes, looks like i might have to invest in an RF bag !!

May also have to double check that once locked, it will deadlock the doors.
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      01-15-2019, 04:24 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APJ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Yes, that's basically the question. I tested it this morning. I locked the car with the window open and then stuck my arm in with the key and hit the start button - nothing happened.

So it appears with the normal key the immobilizer is only disarmed on pressing the open button on the fob and in that case I don't think I'll be bothering with the RF bag now.
I tried exactly the same process but my ignition came on, and i don't have comfort opening, strange how two similar cars have two different outcomes, looks like i might have to invest in an RF bag !!
Just to be clear when I locked the car I was standing outside. If you lock the car while inside the key acts like the button on the dash so the doors close but the immobiliser and alarm don't activate.

You can check the immobiliser is active by checking the led under the rear view mirror is flashing.
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      01-15-2019, 05:42 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Just to be clear when I locked the car I was standing outside. If you lock the car while inside the key acts like the button on the dash so the doors close but the immobiliser and alarm don't activate.

You can check the immobiliser is active by checking the led under the rear view mirror is flashing.
Just a thought.. What's the range of the keyfob to the ignition? Is it possible it didn't come on because the key was outside the car? Or did you throw the key through the window onto the drivers seat or something before trying the ignition?
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      01-15-2019, 06:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooded View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
Just to be clear when I locked the car I was standing outside. If you lock the car while inside the key acts like the button on the dash so the doors close but the immobiliser and alarm don't activate.

You can check the immobiliser is active by checking the led under the rear view mirror is flashing.
Just a thought.. What's the range of the keyfob to the ignition? Is it possible it didn't come on because the key was outside the car? Or did you throw the key through the windtow onto the drivers seat or something before trying the ignition?

The range is very short and it will only work inside the car. Basically I was outside of the car when I locked it but I had left the window open so I reached in, put the keys back inside and then pressed the button.
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      01-15-2019, 06:34 AM   #44
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Quote:
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The range is very short and it will only work inside the car. Basically I was outside of the car when I locked it but I had left the window open so I reached in, put the keys back inside and then pressed the button.
My understanding is that they stick a booster to your house window near the keys. So the car can be started. This works well with any keyless system. Harder if the doors don't open but that can be worked around.

For example using a jammer so that when you press the button to lock the car, the signal is jammed leaving you thinking the car is locked, but it's not.

Older BMWs it was possible to introduce new keys by getting data from OBD port. This is no longer possible with newer cars and I think older cars can have a firmware update to prevent the key data from being accessible via OBD

For newer cars this might be possible to crack the key code and produce a clone key, but from what I have seen the adverts for this solution are fake and the only way I know works is get a key from a dealer. Olde cars you can get clone keys for sure
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