[IK6SPEED]

Do the F30/F32/F80/F82 use K-CAN4 anywhere in the vehicle?

If so, what date did these series start with K-CAN4 in the vehicles?

[Sanelko]

How many CAN busses a vehicle has is series dependent, but isn't consistent between the series nor is the appended number descriptive of the bus speed. For example, if you look at the wiring diagram of the F10 headunit, it will say it runs on the K-CAN4 bus, but this is equivalent to the K-CAN2 bus on an F30.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

How many CAN busses a vehicle has is series dependent, but isn't consistent between the series nor is the appended number descriptive of the bus speed. For example, if you look at the wiring diagram of the F10 headunit, it will say it runs on the K-CAN4 bus, but this is equivalent to the K-CAN2 bus on an F30.

But KCAN4 has different specs that KCAN2 and KCAN.

For example, a 2013 F30 iDrive Controller will run on KCAN but a 2014 F30 iDrive Controller is on KCAN2 and will not function if plugged into the KCAN network.

One can retrofit a 2014 iDrive Controller on KCAN2 in a 2013 car, providing it is rewired to the KCAN2 network, but that's only because the KCAN2 network exists in the 2013 vehicle.

The newer cars run on the KCAN4 network, but as above, the network has to exist in the car.

So my question was pretty straight forward.

When did the KCAN4 network begin to exist in F3x/F8x vehicles, if they ever did exist?

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

But KCAN4 has different specs that KCAN2 and KCAN.

For example, a 2013 F30 iDrive Controller will run on KCAN but a 2014 F30 iDrive Controller is on KCAN2 and will not function if plugged into the KCAN network.

One can retrofit a 2014 iDrive Controller on KCAN2 in a 2013 car, providing it is rewired to the KCAN2 network, but that's only because the KCAN2 network exists in the 2013 vehicle.

The newer cars run on the KCAN4 network, but as above, the network has to exist in the car.

So my question was pretty straight forward.

When did the KCAN4 network begin to exist in F3x/F8x vehicles, if they ever did exist?

So my answer was pretty straightforward.

In the F30, the iDrive controller moved from the K-CAN to the K-CAN2 bus when the new NBT head unit was introduced, and these busses operate at different speeds. The K-CAN (body CAN) communicates at a low data transfer rate of 100 kB/s. The K-CAN2 (body CAN 2) is responsible for control unit communication at a high data transfer rate of 500 kB/s. Both are linked with other bus systems via the central gateway module (ZGM).

In a G30, the K-CAN4 bus is the equivalent to the K-CAN2 bus in an F30. Both networks have the IHKA, HU, TCB, and ZBE modules. You can take a headunit out of a G30 and retrofit it on the F30 and it will work without issues.

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

But KCAN4 has different specs that KCAN2 and KCAN.

Oh really? Can you tell me what those specs are? Please do not pretend to be an expert in something you clearly aren't. I may have been willing to help you with what you're trying to accomplish if you didn't have such an arrogant response.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

So my answer was pretty straightforward.

In the F30, the iDrive controller moved from the K-CAN to the K-CAN2 bus when the new NBT head unit was introduced, and these busses operate at different speeds. The K-CAN (body CAN) communicates at a low data transfer rate of 100 kB/s. The K-CAN2 (body CAN 2) is responsible for control unit communication at a high data transfer rate of 500 kB/s. Both are linked with other bus systems via the central gateway module (ZGM).

In a G30, the K-CAN4 bus is the equivalent to the K-CAN2 bus in an F30. Both networks have the IHKA, HU, TCB, and ZBE modules. You can take a headunit out of a G30 and retrofit it on the F30 and it will work without issues.

Oh really? Can you tell me what those specs are? Please do not pretend to be an expert in something you clearly aren't. I may have been willing to help you with what you're trying to accomplish if you didn't have such an arrogant response.

If I were an expert, I would not be asking.

But I do know that a KCAN2 item CANNOT operate on the KCAN Network, as noted in my follow up with the iDrive.

Likewise, despite what you posted, I know KCAN4 items cannot operate on the KCAN2 network as verified by steve@codemybimmer

In fact, despite your claims, the G30 KCAN4 HU High 3 Units are shown as not compatible with the F30 HU High 2 units. BMW has made it a point of limiting models and compatibility. If it were compatible today, they would have the same part number and @steve@codemybimmer would be able to retrofit.

From looking at newtis diagrams, it appears that the protocol has changed on the KCAN4 network.

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

If I were an expert, I would not be asking.

My point exactly i.e. don't be a smart-ass.

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

But I do know that a KCAN2 item CANNOT operate on the KCAN Network, as noted in my follow up with the iDrive.

I just told you above that these two buses on an F30 operate at different bit rates, of course you can't interchange items between the two busses.

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Likewise, despite what you posted, I know KCAN4 items cannot operate on the KCAN2 network as verified by steve@codemybimmer

In fact, despite your claims, the G30 KCAN4 HU High 3 Units are shown as not compatible with the F30 HU High 2 units. BMW has made it a point of limiting models and compatibility. If it were compatible today, they would have the same part number and @steve@codemybimmer would be able to retrofit.

From looking at newtis diagrams, it appears that the protocol has changed on the KCAN4 network.

I also told you that K-CAN2 vs K-CAN4 is just a designator that is series dependant. It isn't consistent between the series nor is the appended number descriptive of the bus bit rate.

Guess the G30 headunit in my 2012 F30 is working by magic

[vilord]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

You can take a headunit out of a G30 and retrofit it on the F30 and it will work without issues.

Did you do this with a G30 Evo or a G30 MGU?

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by vilord

Did you do this with a G30 Evo or a G30 MGU?

EVO, working on K-CAN2, obviously.

Which means it's not working with iDrive 7, which is why you would want to do that.

Besides that, the HU-MGU shifted more functions out of the HU and to the rear components, so a HU-MGU cannot be retrofitted into a F30 currently.

K-CAN4 is needed for HU-MGU, ATM2, IHKA etc

[vilord]

Yeah, I'm piecing the idea together first, but will probably start looking for parts in the new year to get an MGU head unit and amp, so i can get idrive 7 and android auto

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by vilord

Yeah, I'm piecing the idea together first, but will probably start looking for parts in the new year to get an MGU head unit and amp, so i can get idrive 7 and android auto

I started thinking of retrofitting iDrive 7 into a F3x about 18 months ago. As details about iDrive 7 we're slowly released, that is when the incompatibility of a K-CAN4 system in a car with only K-CAN and K-CAN2 in it came to light.

Which is why I asked the original question when creating this thread.

Unless a unit can be made that translates K-CAN4 to the K-CAN2 network, I do not see how it's possible to retrofit.

The other problem with that is most likely the K-CAN4 Network has a much higher data rate than K-CAN2 (just as K-CAN2 had a higher data rate than the original K-CAN). If that is the case, the K-CAN4 network could flood the K-CAN2 network even if there was a translation interface.

BTW, the HU-MGU does not have a CD/DVD slot so that might be a little weird in a F3x. Also, I have yet to actually measure a HU-MGU dimensions to see if it would even fit in the F3x slot, not that it could not be modified. Figured the K-CAN4 Network issue was a showstopper issue to be overcome before getting into the mundane issues of physical dimensions.

I had hoped that BMW would put an iDrive 7 unit in the last year of the F32 and F82 18 months ago. That would have made it much easier. Obviously, that did not happen.

[psyki]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

My point exactly i.e. don't be a smart-ass.



I just told you above that these two buses on an F30 operate at different bit rates, of course you can't interchange items between the two busses.



I also told you that K-CAN2 vs K-CAN4 is just a designator that is series dependant. It isn't consistent between the series nor is the appended number descriptive of the bus bit rate.

Guess the G30 headunit in my 2012 F30 is working by magic

I'm curious about this as well, as I've seen F15 wiring diagrams in the TIS that show the CAN4 and CAN2 buses in the same architecture. If CAN4 in model A is the same thing as CAN2 in model B, then what is CAN2 in model A?

[vilord]

If you look at the description of the hu_nbtevo on a g series car, it says:
The HU-H control unit is used as a headunit. The Head Unit High is the head unit in the MOST network In addition, the Head Unit High is connected to the K-CAN4 and the Ethernet.

The description for MGU:
there is no longer any MOST in the vehicle electrical system structure.
The Head Unit High (HU-H) is connected to the K-CAN4 and to the Ethernet.


Perhaps the documentation is wrong, but that makes me think that kcan4 and kcan2 are compatible with each other in protocol and speed, since they wouldn't make a new evo just to increase the can bus speed.

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by vilord

Did you do this with a G30 Evo or a G30 MGU?

G30 EVO. I did this retrofit a couple years back where ID7 wasn't out yet.

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by psyki

I'm curious about this as well, as I've seen F15 wiring diagrams in the TIS that show the CAN4 and CAN2 buses in the same architecture. If CAN4 in model A is the same thing as CAN2 in model B, then what is CAN2 in model A?

So that's exactly it, you can't say for sure short of either measuring the bus data frame with an oscilloscope/logic analyzer or going out and testing it. It's safe to assume that any modules that have identical hardware between two different series will be compatible. I.e. a telematics module from a G30 will work fine in a F30, despite this module being on different CAN bus designators -- see pins 7 & 9 in the following wiring diagrams:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...lim/1VnZDDCou2
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...lim/1VnZCJcOBg

So it is possible the ID7 HU will be retrofit-able in an F30 granted people find a way to bypass BMW's security measures to prevent people from doing so. I believe the #1 reason you're not seeing much on this topic just now is because the ID7 system is new and there are not many MGU headunits + associated hardware from donor vehicles floating around, which is about the only way one would be able to retrofit (or attempt to retrofit) the system at a reasonable cost.

[psyki]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

So that's exactly it, you can't say for sure short of either measuring the bus data frame with an oscilloscope/logic analyzer or going out and testing it. It's safe to assume that any modules that have identical hardware between two different series will be compatible. I.e. a telematics module from a G30 will work fine in a F30, despite this module being on different CAN bus designators -- see pins 7 & 9 in the following wiring diagrams:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...lim/1VnZDDCou2
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...lim/1VnZCJcOBg

So it is possible the ID7 HU will be retrofit-able in an F30 granted people find a way to bypass BMW's security measures to prevent people from doing so. I believe the #1 reason you're not seeing much on this topic just now is because the ID7 system is new and there are not many MGU headunits + associated hardware from donor vehicles floating around, which is about the only way one would be able to retrofit (or attempt to retrofit) the system at a reasonable cost.

On the retrofit note, are there cars with MGU/ID7 that have ATM or do they have ATM2 only?

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by psyki

On the retrofit note, are there cars with MGU/ID7 that have ATM or do they have ATM2 only?

Believe it would only be ATM2. Whenever the headunit went through a new revision, they changed the telematics unit as well.

CIC - COMBOX
NBT - TCB1
NBT EVO - ATM (TCB2)

Accordingly, I imagine the MGU would then mate with the ATM2. There is a bit of an exception where the HU basis in the NBT EVO era still used a TCB (albeit a 4G TCB unlike the 3G with the NBT era). The TCB communicates over USB over the thick HSD connector while the ATM uses ethernet via twisted pair.

[psyki]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

Believe it would only be ATM2. Whenever the headunit went through a new revision, they changed the telematics unit as well.

CIC - COMBOX
NBT - TCB1
NBT EVO - ATM (TCB2)

Accordingly, I imagine the MGU would then mate with the ATM2. There is a bit of an exception where the HU basis in the NBT EVO era still used a TCB (albeit a 4G TCB unlike the 3G with the NBT era). The TCB communicates over USB over the thick HSD connector while the ATM uses ethernet via twisted pair.

Makes sense, although I have no doubt that a retrofit will be doable at some point down the road.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

So that's exactly it, you can't say for sure short of either measuring the bus data frame with an oscilloscope/logic analyzer or going out and testing it. It's safe to assume that any modules that have identical hardware between two different series will be compatible. I.e. a telematics module from a G30 will work fine in a F30, despite this module being on different CAN bus designators -- see pins 7 & 9 in the following wiring diagrams:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...lim/1VnZDDCou2
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...lim/1VnZCJcOBg

So it is possible the ID7 HU will be retrofit-able in an F30 granted people find a way to bypass BMW's security measures to prevent people from doing so. I believe the #1 reason you're not seeing much on this topic just now is because the ID7 system is new and there are not many MGU headunits + associated hardware from donor vehicles floating around, which is about the only way one would be able to retrofit (or attempt to retrofit) the system at a reasonable cost.

I have found several used MGU units with the correct G20 part numbers.

[Sanelko]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

I have found several used MGU units with the correct G20 part numbers.

Several, but not many. Not sure what prices you saw but I'm assuming that is probably quite high at the moment as well.

Otherwise, off the bat I noticed the power connector with quadlock has changed. Looks like the headunit is no longer responsible for audio tuning and processing. Thus, all the related wires that used to go from the headunit to the audio amplifier no longer exist in this connector and it is now much smaller (No MOST anymore either). There is now an audio receiver module in the trunk (where the F30 audio amplifier is) that is responsible for tuning, processing, and amplifying the audio signals. It has an Ethernet connection to the headuit so I believe this is for control via the i-drive.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Sanelko

Several, but not many. Not sure what prices you saw but I'm assuming that is probably quite high at the moment as well.

Otherwise, off the bat I noticed the power connector with quadlock has changed. Looks like the headunit is no longer responsible for audio tuning and processing. Thus, all the related wires that used to go from the headunit to the audio amplifier no longer exist in this connector and it is now much smaller (No MOST anymore either). There is now an audio receiver module in the trunk (where the F30 audio amplifier is) that is responsible for tuning, processing, and amplifying the audio signals. It has an Ethernet connection to the headuit so I believe this is for control via the i-drive.

Prices were surprisingly lower than iDrive 6 HU.

And you are correct on all the other changes.

[vilord]

Yeah, the trouble is that for MGU, we need to buy an MGU, replace the quadlock, replace the amplifier (RAM), replace the ATM, move most antennas (except for GPS) from the HU to the RAM, add a twisted pair ethernet link for the RAM, then hope that everything talks.

I couldn't tell for sure, but I think the CID is the same from Evo to MGU.

Cost of ATM2 + RAM + MGU was prohibitive for me just to get android auto, and i don't care about any of the other features.

[vilord]

(It also would likely break HUD and some, if not all, 6WB functionality...)