[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I agree. Our politicians severely underestimated the lack of common sense in the UK. (Apologies Scotland, you did ok).

They thought, stupidly, that the public would put idiots like Farage and Johnson back in their boxes, permanently. Not for one minute did they assume that 17.4 million people would decide to ignore the obvious.

The inescapable fact is none of this Brexit process would ever have happened if Parliament hadn't voted overwhelmingly to give the UK electorate a say on our continued membership of the EU; that same Parliament has then been completely incompetent when it's come to implementing a result they neither wanted nor expected. Therefore, for anyone to imply none of this car crash is their fault is just ridiculous IMO; they could have avoided it completely by not having the referendum in the first place (as some of us said back in 2016) and having had it they certainly didn't need to make a complete Horlicks of the subsequent Brexit process (but they have).

I've heard people say many times - often in support of the idea of another referendum - that we have a lot more facts now on which to base a decision. In general I'm not actually convinced that's true but one thing I will concede is I never for one second thought our politicians were quite as incompetent as this; I never had a high opinion of them but if anyone had said 3 years ago they'd make such a complete mess of Brexit I genuinely wouldn't have believed them.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

No just the fools that voted to leave I'm afraid for no gain whatsoever.

Ridiculous!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

The inescapable fact is none of this Brexit process would ever have happened if Parliament hadn't voted overwhelmingly to give the UK electorate a say on our continued membership of the EU; that same Parliament has then been completely incompetent when it's come to implementing a result they neither wanted nor expected. Therefore, for anyone to imply none of this car crash is their fault is just ridiculous IMO; they could have avoided it completely by not having the referendum in the first place (as some of us said back in 2016) and having had it they certainly didn't need to make a complete Horlicks of the subsequent Brexit process (but they have).

I've heard people say many times - often in support of the idea of another referendum - that we have a lot more facts now on which to base a decision. In general I'm not actually convinced that's true but one thing I will concede is I never for one second thought our politicians were quite as incompetent as this; I never had a high opinion of them but if anyone had said 3 years ago they'd make such a complete mess of Brexit I genuinely wouldn't have believed them.

My post agreed with you. Our politicians are absolutely at fault for assuming the public had common sense. Cameron was relying precisely on that fact.

I find it difficult to understand how people couldn't envisage this mess as the end result of a leave vote. I really don't think it needed a crystal ball and was one of several factors that made me vote remain.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Not sure of the whys and wherefores surrounding the system but what's pretty clear is this particular petition now has no credibility whatsoever and hence merits no further attention or discussion. The focus of our politicians now needs to be very firmly on extricating us from the mess they've dropped us in and I sincerely hope they do that and don't get distracted by sideshows like this discredited petition.

The only person who is discrediting this is you. What's your expertise in such online security?

You know you can't sign the petition without confirming via a link they send to your email address don't you?

Yes you could have more than one email account or set up more but who could be arsed. Most remainers will be at work and not have time for such high jinx.

This is quite interesting though, shows very little chance of outside UK interference in the numbers of that petition, unlike the actual referendum ...

https://britorbot.org/2019/03/22/rev...e-50-petition/

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Dyl

The only person who is discrediting this is you. What's your expertise in such online security?

Sorry but once you've got people admitting to having signed half a dozen times - along with signatories from North Korea, Afghanistan and apparently Fido from the Home Counties - it's discredited and I don't think you need to be an expert in online security to realise that!

Moreover, as has been pointed out earlier, we already know there are millions of people in the UK who would prefer to Remain in the EU (which is fair enough) and we didn't need a petition to tell us that; therefore, as well as discredited the petition is also pointless....

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Sorry but once you've got people admitting to having signed half a dozen times - along with signatories from North Korea, Afghanistan and apparently Fido from the Home Counties - it's discredited and I don't think you need to be an expert in online security to realise that!.

Who admitted to it? You've clearly not read the link I provided. You don't think there are British people who happen to be abroad at the moment?

As I say, just because YOU have discredited something based on what someone has said rather than real evidence doesn't mean it actually has been. There is far more evidence that the actual election was bought with dubious foreign money than what you can provide with what your mate down the pub says.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

My post agreed with you. Our politicians are absolutely at fault for assuming the public had common sense. Cameron was relying precisely on that fact.

I agree our politicians are at fault but my objection to the referendum was always that it was too complex an issue to be determined by a simple, binary, in or out vote. However, I thought - and still believe - that there are good arguments for and against our continued membership of the EU so where I don't agree is that Remain was a glaringly obvious, common sense, choice.

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I find it difficult to understand how people couldn't envisage this mess as the end result of a leave vote. I really don't think it needed a crystal ball and was one of several factors that made me vote remain.

The mess we have now wasn't necessary or inevitable in my view. However, the reality is our politicians have made it incredibly easy for the EU and Barnier and his team have simply run rings round them. Perhaps you had more of an appreciation for just how bad our politicians are but I've found the level of their incompetence to be quite breathtaking!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Dyl

Who admitted to it?

See post number 942 on page 43....

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree our politicians are at fault but my objection to the referendum was always that it was too complex an issue to be determined by a simple, binary, in or out vote. However, I thought - and still believe - that there are good arguments for and against our continued membership of the EU so where I don't agree is that Remain was a glaringly obvious, common sense, choice.

The mess we have now wasn't necessary or inevitable in my view. However, the reality is our politicians have made it incredibly easy for the EU and Barnier and his team have simply run rings round them. Perhaps you had more of an appreciation for just how bad our politicians are but I've found the level of their incompetence to be quite breathtaking!

I agree with 69seconds, I sat there in the garden sipping on my G&T listening to my 90s club playlist a few days before the vote contemplating whether to vote leave or remain, up until then I'd been on the fence.

I decided to remain not because KWS please don't go came on but because I thought the shower of imbeciles we have that would be negotiating Brexit couldn't run a chip shop let alone a country.

That made my mind up, I then got back to reminiscing about checked trousers and fluorescent waistcoats.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by JNW1

See post number 942 on page 43....

Must be true then, it was posted anonymously on a forum.

[gr4z]

We have a new term in our house now, BOB. Bored. Of. Brexit.

I am sick of it and don't turn on the news until about 10-15 mins in now, just to get the rest of the news rather than hear, yet again about the complete and utter mess we are in with the so called 'politicians' waging a war against each other trying to score points. Get on with it and just make a bloody decision either way.

[TodmordenLad]

Obviously Cameron should never have called an in/out referendum in the first place. That is well documented and seems to unite most thinking people, whatever their political persuasion
The mistake which May then made was to call a GE when she did, ending up without a clear majority
The next mistake was parliament voting on Article 50 and setting the date without cross party consensus on what Brexit entailed and how it would be delivered. The entire process has been arse about face ever since
Another failing has been May's appalling judgment of character in some of her key appointments - Fox, Davis, Raab and Grayling - to name but four
Given the background to this and May's failings, I am honestly not surprised that we are in the mess we in when you also factor in the disproportionate influence of the swivel eyed loonies on the Tory right and the lack of a credible opposition from Corbyn's Labour.
Not forgetting of course that the process to extricate the U.K. from an organisation that it has been part of for 45 years which touches every aspect of modern life is being scoped, negotiated and implemented by politicians and senior civil servants who lack the intellectual depth, the experience and the insight to deliver such a massive undertaking.
We have a high opinion of ourselves in the U.K. and most of the time imo, deservedly so. In the last three years, however, we have f***ed up royally and it's going to take a long time for us to recover from this mess, whenever we leave the EU - if indeed we ever do

[R0B]

Article 50 will be revoked. You heard it here (not) first.

[agentorange]

Ya know, this was funny in 2016. Now I'm not so sure.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree our politicians are at fault but my objection to the referendum was always that it was too complex an issue to be determined by a simple, binary, in or out vote. However, I thought - and still believe - that there are good arguments for and against our continued membership of the EU so where I don't agree is that Remain was a glaringly obvious, common sense, choice.



The mess we have now wasn't necessary or inevitable in my view. However, the reality is our politicians have made it incredibly easy for the EU and Barnier and his team have simply run rings round them. Perhaps you had more of an appreciation for just how bad our politicians are but I've found the level of their incompetence to be quite breathtaking!

The arguments for membership are based on expert opinion and a fair amount of factual undisputed benefits.

The arguments against membership are based on blind hope and not much else.

As I said, im still surprised that people couldn't see this coming. It was obvious that the EU couldn't give us what we'd demand and it was obvious that our MP's were going to do a shit job of negotiations.

[zofinger]

We're all agreed MP's have done shockingly bad. Can I say though, and I don't think this will reach the ears it needs to, no one deserves abuse/threats such as what is being reported. Talk about MPs, wish they'll go to hell, like Tusk, but death threats to them/their family? Anyone doing that can fck right off out our country.

Btw - the media majored on May's telecast to the nation as one that didn't help stop such despicable behaviour. But haven't heard them associate Tusk as doing the same even though he's said they should go to hell - or variants thereof!

[225]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

Not sure how far it will get and doubtless no where near the other fake one...

While I would just prefer they backed May's deal just to end it, looks like they Re not going to bother at the moment as it won't have the votes.

So if they allow MPs to have indictative votes that's all well and good but I just dont believe anything would come if it. What if some form of soft Brexit wins will all the remainer MPs now shut up and accept it now?
Same for hard brexiteers.

[R0B]

Reading some comments on Facebook and there is a direct correlation between Leave voters and an ability spell.

Here's a classic, copied and pasted:

Naa the European is fukd can't possibly work with over 20 odd country's taking out and only a few paying in so can't be any worse off leaving just getting out before it sinks 😏
No one actually knows any thing for fact wether we'd be better off or not so can't say we'd be fukd they said alot of things that would happen for the worse and haven't seen it yet sorry

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by R0B

Reading some comments on Facebook and there is a direct correlation between Leave voters and an ability spell.

Here's a classic, copied and pasted:

Naa the European is fukd can't possibly work with over 20 odd country's taking out and only a few paying in so can't be any worse off leaving just getting out before it sinks 😏
No one actually knows any thing for fact wether we'd be better off or not so can't say we'd be fukd they said alot of things that would happen for the worse and haven't seen it yet sorry

Is that a friend?!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

The arguments for membership are based on expert opinion and a fair amount of factual undisputed benefits.

The arguments against membership are based on blind hope and not much else.

I don't agree it's anywhere near as black and white as you paint it but I accept it's your opinion to which you're fully entitled.

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

As I said, im still surprised that people couldn't see this coming. It was obvious that the EU couldn't give us what we'd demand and it was obvious that our MP's were going to do a shit job of negotiations.

If we'd gone in with a realistic target - so something along the lines of aiming ultimately for a Canada Plus type agreement - I think we'd have had a good chance of a successful outcome (the EU even hinted early in the process that they'd be receptive to considering something along those lines). Problem is our government went down the cherry picking route - which was never going to work - and, to compound the mistake, made a complete mess of the negotiations. Add to the mix a Parliament that's been trying to undermine the referendum outcome from day 1 and we are where we are.

Got to admit I didn't see this level of ineptitude and disunity coming - I knew our politicians were bad but I didn't think they were that bad - but in hindsight I have to hold my hand up and say I was wrong! And of course one of the things that flows from this is if Barnier & Co have managed to run rings round them how would this same shower cope with negotiating the promised FTA's with the likes of the US, China, Japan, India, etc? I suppose the current shower probably won't be in government for much longer but I don't see lots of competent people lining-up to replace them and can't say the last couple of years have done much for my confidence in the UK's ability to negotiate anything of consequence....

[teaston]

Originally Posted by R0B

Reading some comments on Facebook and there is a direct correlation between Leave voters and an ability spell.

Here's a classic, copied and pasted:

Naa the European is fukd can't possibly work with over 20 odd country's taking out and only a few paying in so can't be any worse off leaving just getting out before it sinks 😏
No one actually knows any thing for fact wether we'd be better off or not so can't say we'd be fukd they said alot of things that would happen for the worse and haven't seen it yet sorry

I think you meant “ability to spell”

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Obviously Cameron should never have called an in/out referendum in the first place. That is well documented and seems to unite most thinking people, whatever their political persuasion
The mistake which May then made was to call a GE when she did, ending up without a clear majority
The next mistake was parliament voting on Article 50 and setting the date without cross party consensus on what Brexit entailed and how it would be delivered. The entire process has been arse about face ever since
Another failing has been May's appalling judgment of character in some of her key appointments - Fox, Davis, Raab and Grayling - to name but four
Given the background to this and May's failings, I am honestly not surprised that we are in the mess we in when you also factor in the disproportionate influence of the swivel eyed loonies on the Tory right and the lack of a credible opposition from Corbyn's Labour.
Not forgetting of course that the process to extricate the U.K. from an organisation that it has been part of for 45 years which touches every aspect of modern life is being scoped, negotiated and implemented by politicians and senior civil servants who lack the intellectual depth, the experience and the insight to deliver such a massive undertaking.
We have a high opinion of ourselves in the U.K. and most of the time imo, deservedly so. In the last three years, however, we have f***ed up royally and it's going to take a long time for us to recover from this mess, whenever we leave the EU - if indeed we ever do

I agree with much of that and certainly think our global standing and reputation has taken a significant hit over the last couple of years; it will take a long time to repair the damage IMO.