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      09-29-2020, 08:04 AM   #45
Skyhigh
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Wrong
Happy to take it further over PM
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      09-29-2020, 08:09 AM   #46
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What have I started 🤦*♂️ haha
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      09-29-2020, 08:25 AM   #47
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Hahaha I can't remember either

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Originally Posted by luca10 View Post
What have I started 🤦*♂️ haha
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      09-29-2020, 08:36 AM   #48
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No worries We are good buds, so a constructive technical discussion only
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      09-29-2020, 09:55 AM   #49
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No worries We are good buds, so a constructive technical discussion only
Haha glad to hear. Well I'm installing bilstein b8's on my car as soon as they come in, have been back ordered for about a month so far.

When I had my xdelete running, I also had h&r springs which was bouncy as f***. One day I was driving and went over a dip in the road, car bounced like crazy and then very oddly, when I tried to accelerate, my dsc was coming up and closing throttle with like 50% throttle. This happened for 1-2 minutes and then went away.

My highly "uneducated" guess lol was that it had something to do with the transfer case on that big dip so I uninstalled the xdelete right away. When the shocks come in and stiffen up the ride, I will first do a 60-100mph run without xdelete and then a 60-100mph run with xdelete so we can hopefully resolve if there are any differences in times for you two.
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      09-29-2020, 09:58 AM   #50
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Yes, do that. But PLEASE, to save us all from another discussion - do it one after the other - same road, same environmental conditions. Otherwise we will be comparing oranges to bananas again
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      09-29-2020, 10:02 AM   #51
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Yes, do that. But PLEASE, to save us all from another discussion - do it one after the other - same road, same environmental conditions. Otherwise we will be comparing oranges to bananas again
Haha you got it no problem, might be another week or so before the shocks eventually arrive but I will keep you posted
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      09-29-2020, 10:13 AM   #52
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No worries, we probably need that week to get to the bottom of the theoretical discussion anyway
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      05-25-2022, 08:16 AM   #53
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Sorry to revive this old thread. Just diggin thru forums and reading up on Xdelete, but Omg IMS’s inability to grasp the concept of xdelete not making a difference was so frustrating to even read lol. It gave me anxiety. IMS-340C were u ever able to wrap your mind around this concept? If not I may be able to help. They made the explanation way more difficult than it needed to be. Anyway while im here in the future, any issues you found running xdelete? Has it caused any problems over time? Thanks
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      05-25-2022, 10:06 AM   #54
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So for giggles I am going to chime in and see if maybe I can make some sense of this myself.

If a car weighs 1000lbs and has a front diff and rear diff. The engine loses 10% of power through each diff and then 10% of power through total weight. So 30% loss in total.

Now put the front diff in neutral and transfer all power to the rear diff. It will still lose 10% of power from the rear diff and 10% from the weight but will not lose 10% from the front diff as it will just be along for the ride. So 20% loss in total.

In theory, xdrive would be better from a launch due to traction obviously. The RWD will do better from a roll due to less drivetrain loss.

Take a truck with all wheel drive and a truck with 2 wheel drive. Both weighing the same. The 2 wheel drive will have the advantage. This has been proven at the drag strip 1000 times after the 1/8th mile where traction is not a factor.

Of course I have been wrong before and willing to learn something new.
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      05-25-2022, 11:15 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markoz28 View Post
So for giggles I am going to chime in and see if maybe I can make some sense of this myself.

If a car weighs 1000lbs and has a front diff and rear diff. The engine loses 10% of power through each diff and then 10% of power through total weight. So 30% loss in total.

Now put the front diff in neutral and transfer all power to the rear diff. It will still lose 10% of power from the rear diff and 10% from the weight but will not lose 10% from the front diff as it will just be along for the ride. So 20% loss in total.

In theory, xdrive would be better from a launch due to traction obviously. The RWD will do better from a roll due to less drivetrain loss.

Take a truck with all wheel drive and a truck with 2 wheel drive. Both weighing the same. The 2 wheel drive will have the advantage. This has been proven at the drag strip 1000 times after the 1/8th mile where traction is not a factor.

Of course I have been wrong before and willing to learn something new.
And in this case you are wrong as well

To start with, you don't "lose" power through weight. I understand what you mean but it sounds wrong. Physics: power is needed to get work done. Accelerating weight is work. The more weight you have, the more power you need to accelerate for equal time. Since the power is the same, more weight = slower acceleration. Which is why, assuming perfect traction in both cases (!), xDrive is slower (more weight). In real life however xDrive is faster up to about 100-120 km/h as it provides significantly better traction down low.

Mainly however your understanding fails exactly where others do as well
Your front diff and axle are still set in motion! Don't forget that, that's the key here! Just because you now apply power through the rear wheels only, doesn't mean the front stop rotating! All of your front-wheel components (dif, axle, wheels...) still rotate, they still have a mass which needs to be set in motion! Where do you think the power to rotate that mass comes from? And before you answer "the road" - think twice - does the road have power? The only difference is that the "transmitter" of the power in the case of xDelete is the road (imagine a belt, like a timing belt, which connects the front wheels to the rear) instead of the TCU. So, same weight to be set in motion, just a different power transmission route.

Hence - no reduction in power losses.
Only time you would see power gains is on a dyno. Guess why? Because the front axle and dif stand completely still do they stand still on the road?
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      05-25-2022, 11:39 AM   #56
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It's not even worth replying more than this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonIcahn View Post
Sorry to revive this old thread. Just diggin thru forums and reading up on Xdelete, but Omg IMS’s inability to grasp the concept of xdelete not making a difference was so frustrating to even read lol. It gave me anxiety. IMS-340C were u ever able to wrap your mind around this concept? If not I may be able to help. They made the explanation way more difficult than it needed to be. Anyway while im here in the future, any issues you found running xdelete? Has it caused any problems over time? Thanks
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      05-25-2022, 12:02 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
And in this case you are wrong as well

To start with, you don't "lose" power through weight. I understand what you mean but it sounds wrong. Physics: power is needed to get work done. Accelerating weight is work. The more weight you have, the more power you need to accelerate for equal time. Since the power is the same, more weight = slower acceleration. Which is why, assuming perfect traction in both cases (!), xDrive is slower (more weight). In real life however xDrive is faster up to about 100-120 km/h as it provides significantly better traction down low.

Mainly however your understanding fails exactly where others do as well
Your front diff and axle are still set in motion! Don't forget that, that's the key here! Just because you now apply power through the rear wheels only, doesn't mean the front stop rotating! All of your front-wheel components (dif, axle, wheels...) still rotate, they still have a mass which needs to be set in motion! Where do you think the power to rotate that mass comes from? And before you answer "the road" - think twice - does the road have power? The only difference is that the "transmitter" of the power in the case of xDelete is the road (imagine a belt, like a timing belt, which connects the front wheels to the rear) instead of the TCU. So, same weight to be set in motion, just a different power transmission route.

Hence - no reduction in power losses.
Only time you would see power gains is on a dyno. Guess why? Because the front axle and dif stand completely still do they stand still on the road?
SO are you saying that if 2 vehicles of the same weight/power, one being AWD and the other RWD, and traction not being an issue, would accelerate at the same speed/time. Ex 0-60, 60-130 etc...?

willing to admit when Im wrong but require more understanding.
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      05-25-2022, 12:09 PM   #58
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Yes! Same weight + same power + traction out of the equation = same acceleration! Basic physics it doesn't matter how you apply the power to the road, as long as there is traction.

P.s. trucks are not a good example as they can lift one axle off the road and thus decrease friction and rotational mass.
Unless your car can do the same with the front wheels
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      05-25-2022, 12:18 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Yes! Same weight + same power + traction out of the equation = same acceleration! Basic physics it doesn't matter how you apply the power to the road, as long as there is traction.

P.s. trucks are not a good example as they can lift one axle off the road and thus decrease friction and rotational mass.
Unless your car can do the same with the front wheels
So then there is ultimately no reason to delete the Xdrive unless you just want to do burnouts or want the car to over steer from time to time?
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      05-25-2022, 01:05 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Yes! Same weight + same power + traction out of the equation = same acceleration! Basic physics it doesn't matter how you apply the power to the road, as long as there is traction.

P.s. trucks are not a good example as they can lift one axle off the road and thus decrease friction and rotational mass.
Unless your car can do the same with the front wheels
How about air resistance and rolling resistance those need to be the same too

I think I know why there is a misconnect.
AWD on an AWD Dyno will measure the power at all 4 wheels
AWD with Xdelete on an RWD Dyno will measure the WHP at the rear wheels only.
The Drivetrain loss of the front axcle is not measured on an RWD dyno vs the AWD dyno.
>> the dyno printout will show a higher WHP when Xdelete is in RWD only mode
Put the car onto a "european" dyno that adds the drivetrain losses back in to arrive at a engine HP reading both would show the same engine HP
But as in the real world the drivetrain losses from the front axcle are present the difference is just theoretical on a piece of paper good for bragging rights
(unless the system would physically decouple the diveshaft etc. so that it wouldn't be connected to neither the wheels or the transfer case).
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      05-25-2022, 03:19 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markoz28 View Post
So then there is ultimately no reason to delete the Xdrive unless you just want to do burnouts or want the car to over steer from time to time?
Correct!!
The only reason would be to drive a RWD for the fun of it. Some people do it to isolate (permanently or temprarily) a problem with the TCU and avoid repairing it.
I have considered it simply for the adrenaline of it (and since M cars have that feature), but then decided I may be a bit too old for it... If there were performance benefits - I'd definitely go for it! But unfortunately there aren't any... (Be sure if there were performance benefits, that would have been xDelete's main sales pitch... and they don't even mention it. It would be a lie.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcthedark View Post
How about air resistance and rolling resistance those need to be the same too

I think I know why there is a misconnect.
AWD on an AWD Dyno will measure the power at all 4 wheels
AWD with Xdelete on an RWD Dyno will measure the WHP at the rear wheels only.
The Drivetrain loss of the front axcle is not measured on an RWD dyno vs the AWD dyno.
>> the dyno printout will show a higher WHP when Xdelete is in RWD only mode
Put the car onto a "european" dyno that adds the drivetrain losses back in to arrive at a engine HP reading both would show the same engine HP
But as in the real world the drivetrain losses from the front axcle are present the difference is just theoretical on a piece of paper good for bragging rights
(unless the system would physically decouple the diveshaft etc. so that it wouldn't be connected to neither the wheels or the transfer case).
Correct!! All of it!! And I can't believe reputable youtubers as Kies fell for the dyno trick claiming there is some power gain from xDelete... on a RWD dyno... with front axle drinking tea
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      11-14-2022, 04:14 AM   #62
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Hello Luca,

Is there a problem when flashing BM3 while xDelete is enabled? Because xDelete changes some attributes of the ECU. For coding some other special functions I have to disable xDelete and after coding I can re-enable xDelete so no error message is displayed in the drivetrain.

Was your xdelete still enabled when flashing and does it work without problems? could imagine that some attributes are changed that are used by xdelete.... I'm afraid to have made a complicated mistake that can't be undone.
I would be happy if you share your experience flashing with BM3 and xDelete.
Also, do you have xHP as well? If so, are there any problems with that as well?

Thanks in advance,
greetings

Freddy
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