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      08-04-2020, 09:49 AM   #23
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As previous posters have stated, a used bread and butter Japanese vehicle like Toyota, Honda or Subaru will be the much better bet for low maintenance costs. Going with a "prestige" (I put that in quotes because I don't know why BMW 3-series sedans fit that descriptor these days) German vehicle always includes high maintenance and repair costs, when they are necessary. If you are determined on this path, consider a CPO 3 YO off-lease from a BMW dealer. It still has a year left on warranty and a year's worth of annual maintenance will have been done. In particular, look at a 2017 or 2018 330e. I recently turned in one after a 3 year lease and it would have been a really big bargain to whoever bought that trouble-free vehicle. Don't let the lack of a way to recharge a PHEV deter you. My CA's father had a 330e and never charged it (because it would have made him think he was a wooly-headed liberal, in his own mind) but still enjoyed really great gas mileage with his "super-hybrid".
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      08-04-2020, 11:59 AM   #24
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You are asking two separate questions. "Reliability" is a function of one's willingness to accept the cost of preventative maintenance and repair of broken/worn parts. "Economic decision" is based on your ability and willingness to support maintenance and repair.

Any car can be reliable if one takes care of it, not abuse it when driving it, and pay for maintaining it. The economic decision is based on how much the car costs per mile to operate. BMWs cost more per mile to operate as compared to the average.
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      08-04-2020, 04:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You are asking two separate questions. "Reliability" is a function of one's willingness to accept the cost of preventative maintenance and repair of broken/worn parts. "Economic decision" is based on your ability and willingness to support maintenance and repair.

Any car can be reliable if one takes care of it, not abuse it when driving it, and pay for maintaining it. The economic decision is based on how much the car costs per mile to operate. BMWs cost more per mile to operate as compared to the average.
I agree with most of your posts but not fully on this one. I agree with you that many of the problems come from lack of maintenance and care but some cars are more reliable than others no matter what you do with them.

Reliability is not the willingness to accept the cost of preventative maintenance and repair of broken/worn costs. 2017 Alfa's are known to have poor reliability even when under warranty, cost can be zero but the car can still spend it's life in the shop. Also some cars are very unreliable no matter what you do to take care of it, some new cars transmissions fit this.
Owners do nothing wrong but end up with a huge bill Then some Japanese cars require minimal maintenance/expense to still have reliability greater than the best cared for BMW's.
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      08-04-2020, 05:23 PM   #26
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Agree with the two previous posts. Another example of poor reliability that can not be corrected with any amount of repair and maintenance is Series I-III Jaguar XJs from an electrical and engine point of view. The Lucas electrics and Jaguar XK 6 cylinder can not/could not be repaired into reliability. They were flawed in design and manufacture. But beautiful and fun. Speaking from experience.

An opposite example is a high mileage (>200k miles) Toyota 4Runner. When things wear out as they do, when parts are replaced on that vehicle it returns to the normal state of being reliable. Those trucks can be kept running for a very long time, when the proper maintenance and repair is done.
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      08-04-2020, 10:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree with most of your posts but not fully on this one. I agree with you that many of the problems come from lack of maintenance and care but some cars are more reliable than others no matter what you do with them.

Reliability is not the willingness to accept the cost of preventative maintenance and repair of broken/worn costs. 2017 Alfa's are known to have poor reliability even when under warranty, cost can be zero but the car can still spend it's life in the shop. Also some cars are very unreliable no matter what you do to take care of it, some new cars transmissions fit this.
Owners do nothing wrong but end up with a huge bill Then some Japanese cars require minimal maintenance/expense to still have reliability greater than the best cared for BMW's.
Agreed. There have been three BMWs in my family which were purchased outright brand spanking new. Each one was maintained by the book, garaged, and loved dearly. They all turned into lemons by 80-90k miles. You can do everything right but still get screwed. Meanwhile my Lexus IS just keeps chugging along without issue. BMWs are simply not engineered to last on purpose.
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      08-05-2020, 06:39 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Agreed. There have been three BMWs in my family which were purchased outright brand spanking new. Each one was maintained by the book, garaged, and loved dearly. They all turned into lemons by 80-90k miles. You can do everything right but still get screwed. Meanwhile my Lexus IS just keeps chugging along without issue. BMWs are simply not engineered to last on purpose.
I've had 5 BMWs. I still have 4 of them. Total driven miles is 930,000. Total chassis miles is 1,050,000; two cars were bought used, 3 cars bought new. The fleet spans from the E30 to the E90. In 30 years, just 2 breakdowns on the road that required a tow truck. All cars are (or were) daily drivers at some point. 3 still get driven over 200 miles per week.

While not the largest sample of BMWs in the world, it's still a decent real-live representative example. I can't speak to the reliability E90 N54 3-series and model years past that with turbo engines.

All cars break.
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      08-05-2020, 06:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree with most of your posts but not fully on this one. I agree with you that many of the problems come from lack of maintenance and care but some cars are more reliable than others no matter what you do with them.

Reliability is not the willingness to accept the cost of preventative maintenance and repair of broken/worn costs. 2017 Alfa's are known to have poor reliability even when under warranty, cost can be zero but the car can still spend it's life in the shop. Also some cars are very unreliable no matter what you do to take care of it, some new cars transmissions fit this.
Owners do nothing wrong but end up with a huge bill Then some Japanese cars require minimal maintenance/expense to still have reliability greater than the best cared for BMW's.
And then after warranty, the owner decides if he wants to pay the repair bills for the Alfa to keep the car reliable...

Between my wife and I, back in the 1990's we ran an Acura Integra and a E30 BMW concurrently. The Acura lost the ignitor (it eventually turned into a recall), went through 3 left-side halfshafts, required a new clutch at 210,000 mostly all highway driven, the AC broke at 180,000, needed an exhaust at 150,000, and the car began to rust on the left rear wheel well (common for the 1st gen Integra). Had the car 9 years and 230,000 miles.

The E30 lost the steering rack (seal) at 120,000, required a new t-stat housing at 115,000, had a recall for the heater core, needed a clutch at 230,000 (spent 2 years in NYC), reupholstered the drivers seat around 240,000 miles, and it needed an new electric antenna every 3 years or so. And it did have a small rust issue in the battery box that required repair. Had the car 18 years and 257,000 miles.

The BMW was more expensive to own because mostly of fuel cost.
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      08-05-2020, 06:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Agree with the two previous posts. Another example of poor reliability that can not be corrected with any amount of repair and maintenance is Series I-III Jaguar XJs from an electrical and engine point of view. The Lucas electrics and Jaguar XK 6 cylinder can not/could not be repaired into reliability. They were flawed in design and manufacture. But beautiful and fun. Speaking from experience.

An opposite example is a high mileage (>200k miles) Toyota 4Runner. When things wear out as they do, when parts are replaced on that vehicle it returns to the normal state of being reliable. Those trucks can be kept running for a very long time, when the proper maintenance and repair is done.
Early 2000's 4-runners V6's were prone to lose head gaskets north of 150,000 miles. I know of 3 examples. Same with mid-2000's Civics.

All cars break. Even 50 year-old Jags... LOL
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      08-05-2020, 07:44 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And then after warranty, the owner decides if he wants to pay the repair bills for the Alfa to keep the car reliable...

Between my wife and I, back in the 1990's we ran an Acura Integra and a E30 BMW concurrently. The Acura lost the ignitor (it eventually turned into a recall), went through 3 left-side halfshafts, required a new clutch at 210,000 mostly all highway driven, the AC broke at 180,000, needed an exhaust at 150,000, and the car began to rust on the left rear wheel well (common for the 1st gen Integra). Had the car 9 years and 230,000 miles.

The E30 lost the steering rack (seal) at 120,000, required a new t-stat housing at 115,000, had a recall for the heater core, needed a clutch at 230,000 (spent 2 years in NYC), reupholstered the drivers seat around 240,000 miles, and it needed an new electric antenna every 3 years or so. And it did have a small rust issue in the battery box that required repair. Had the car 18 years and 257,000 miles.

The BMW was more expensive to own because mostly of fuel cost.
Driver decides if he wants to keep paying repair bills on his constantly repaired Alfa after warranty to keep it reliable? How does this statement make sense? If it was reliable he wouldn't constantly be fixing it.

Your experiences with a few cars are a poor sample of the car industry as a whole.

You believe all cars are equally reliable and the only variable is how you take care of them? Not sure anyone believes this to be true. Some parts break because they were poorly designed or manufactured and there is nothing you can do to prevent it from happening (replacing the part before it breaks doesn't make the part reliable, just avoids you being stuck somewhere).
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      08-05-2020, 07:53 AM   #32
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As a former 320i owner - I'd say "no."
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      08-05-2020, 08:57 AM   #33
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Cost of maintenance is overblown. The savings of buying used more than offsets the cost of maintenance. Though I would get a 328 at least or 335 if you want something faster than the q50 with xdrive.
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      08-05-2020, 10:12 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Driver decides if he wants to keep paying repair bills on his constantly repaired Alfa after warranty to keep it reliable? How does this statement make sense? If it was reliable he wouldn't constantly be fixing it.

Your experiences with a few cars are a poor sample of the car industry as a whole.

You believe all cars are equally reliable and the only variable is how you take care of them? Not sure anyone believes this to be true. Some parts break because they were poorly designed or manufactured and there is nothing you can do to prevent it from happening (replacing the part before it breaks doesn't make the part reliable, just avoids you being stuck somewhere).
I've been driving 42 years (pulling the old man card). My experience with owning and repairing automobiles goes back to early 1970 models. My experience includes GM, Ford, VW, BMW, and Honda. I agree Jags from the 1960's with Lucas electrics have a reputation as being problematic due to poor part design engineering and manufacturing. Italian cars of the same era have that reputation as well. But the OP is asking about a 2015 BMW and my discussion points relate to modern cars, which I'll frame as manufactured in the past 35 years.

Almost all mainstream manufacturers build reliable, high-build quality cars. Most cars are manufactured with globally sourced subcomponents from relatively the same base of suppliers. Automotive engineering for the most part is based on international SAE standards utilizing computer aided design, modeling, and manufacturing. Most automotive parts are manufactured to International Standards Organization (ISO) certified programs to achieve repetitive results of manufacturing processes. So the variation between manufactures on the use of well-engineered and good quality manufactured parts is not a large aperture. Part cost targets placed on suppliers does influence part quality, no doubt.

Yet there are variations of manufactured goods due to multiple reasons, but in general most modern cars are "reliable". Some break more than others, true, but is that a quality issue or a reliability issue. And as suboptimal performance from parts are discovered (for example the N52 water pump), efforts are taken to improve the engineered design or manufacturing technique to improve the part's performance.

So if the Alfa owner likes his car, post warranty he can decide if he financially will tolerate the cost to operate it.

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      08-05-2020, 11:36 AM   #35
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My 320i was purchased with 32k miles on it in October 2018 and I now have almost 64k. I have only done routine maintenance so far and it's been covered by the CPO maintenance plan. I do plan to do my own maintenance now that the maintenance plan has expired. From what I've priced out so far, it doesn't appear that maintenance will be that expensive. So in my opinion a 2015 320 is reliable... at least mine is.

Is it fast? No. Is it fun to drive? I think so. Are there cars that are faster and more fun to drive? Certainly. Would I buy a 320 again? No, I'd get a 328/330 or 335/340. Having said that... I only paid $17,994 (plus the cost for CPO wrap and maintenance plan extension) for my 320.
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      08-05-2020, 06:35 PM   #36
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2016 320i owner... second F30 with the N20 motor. Bought CPO for under $16k. Very reliable vehicles if maintained and not abused. Have also been inexpensive to service. Looking forward to getting 200k plus out of mine... pretty much guaranteed.

The one issue I had was a coolant thermostat covered under warranty on the first one.

Also... since speed/quickness was brought up, Ill have to mention that the N20 has been proven to be more tunable and faster than the B48 you'll find on the 330. Thats a fact, not an opinion.

A properly set up N20 will also walk a stock N55 (335i)... again facts, not opinions. So while not FAST cars, something capable of sub 13s quarter miles is quick enough for a daily driver as far as Im concerned.

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      08-05-2020, 08:08 PM   #37
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I've had 5 BMWs. I still have 4 of them. Total driven miles is 930,000. Total chassis miles is 1,050,000; two cars were bought used, 3 cars bought new. The fleet spans from the E30 to the E90. In 30 years, just 2 breakdowns on the road that required a tow truck. All cars are (or were) daily drivers at some point. 3 still get driven over 200 miles per week.

While not the largest sample of BMWs in the world, it's still a decent real-live representative example. I can't speak to the reliability E90 N54 3-series and model years past that with turbo engines.

All cars break.
I'm glad you had good luck overall. But I 100% believe that BMW's reputation is earned. The engineering, quality of parts used, and degree of stress/durability testing for BMW is inferior to Japanese cars. They know the overwhelming majority of their customers lease and view cars are disposable, so R&D goes into making the car great for its first few years that's it. Now of course the Japanese reliability model comes at it's own price, notably: poor styling, plasticky interiors, poor tech, old powertrains, and overall cars designed by committee for customers without passion for cars.
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      08-05-2020, 09:09 PM   #38
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How long do you plan on keeping the car? Also, no offense to 320i owners, but the car is gutless and the F30 isn't the most fun BMW in the world, I would honestly look at some other cars as well for that price.
$600 can fix that, lol
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      08-05-2020, 09:16 PM   #39
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I'm glad you had good luck overall. But I 100% believe that BMW's reputation is earned. The engineering, quality of parts used, and degree of stress/durability testing for BMW is inferior to Japanese cars. They know the overwhelming majority of their customers lease and view cars are disposable, so R&D goes into making the car great for its first few years that's it. Now of course the Japanese reliability model comes at it's own price, notably: poor styling, plasticky interiors, poor tech, old powertrains, and overall cars designed by committee for customers without passion for cars.
I disagree. Some of the Japanese and Korean cars are very stylish. Iíve heard nothing but bad things about LKAS on BMWs. ACC is standard on all but the lowest trims on Asian cars. Itís a stand alone option on most BMWs. Most car owners do not have a passion for cars. Most car owners want reliable cars. BMW was slow to add CarPlay and Android auto. Then BMW wanted you to subscribe to CarPlay. Most car owners are happy with their cars. Based on this forum, BMW are not happy with their cars. The first things owners post on here is how they can change their cars.
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      08-05-2020, 09:23 PM   #40
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I disagree. Some of the Japanese and Korean cars are very stylish. Iíve heard nothing but bad things about LKAS on BMWs. ACC is standard on all but the lowest trims on Asian cars. Itís a stand alone option on most BMWs. Most car owners do not have a passion for cars. Most car owners want reliable cars. BMW was slow to add CarPlay and Android auto. Then BMW wanted you to subscribe to CarPlay. Most car owners are happy with their cars. Based on this forum, BMW are not happy with their cars. The first things owners post on here is how they can change their cars.
Fair point. I do think the Japanese/Koreans are making a handful of "passionate" cars now like the LC, LS, TLX, G70, Supra. I'll give them credit where it's due. And BMW has definitely put driving dynamics in the backseat for nearly all of its models. But overall I'd definitely say German cars have more inspiring styling, driving dynamics, interior quality, powertrain/chassis engineering, etc. than competitors.
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      08-05-2020, 09:42 PM   #41
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I had a 2015 CPO 320i for about 6 months before it got totaled at a stop sign. Was reliable except for fuel injector #1 took a shit (covered under CPO). Aside from that, no other issues. Never had it tuned but I had a friend of mine do the auto sport coding which gave the car some life.

If the price/miles/PPI are in your favor, do it.
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So there is actually more of a chance to get more hp out of a 330 then a 335 in my opinion
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Seems like ur out of touch with baseball a bit. A few years behind.
You didnít know who Hader was. And Kershaw is a mess in the playoffs. No thanks
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      08-06-2020, 06:15 AM   #42
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I'm glad you had good luck overall. But I 100% believe that BMW's reputation is earned. The engineering, quality of parts used, and degree of stress/durability testing for BMW is inferior to Japanese cars. They know the overwhelming majority of their customers lease and view cars are disposable, so R&D goes into making the car great for its first few years that's it. Now of course the Japanese reliability model comes at it's own price, notably: poor styling, plasticky interiors, poor tech, old powertrains, and overall cars designed by committee for customers without passion for cars.
Good luck with 5 cars over 30 years and near 1M miles? Hardly. BMW has it's reputation because people read the internet and think they have to replace engine mounts every 50,000 miles...
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      08-06-2020, 03:16 PM   #43
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OP, living in Basel, Switzerland? PLan on changing over to winter tires? If no to tire change, pass on the AWD, get a spirited RWD and change the tires.
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      08-06-2020, 04:36 PM   #44
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Yes extremely reliable.
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