[SD Convert]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

@[NimbusGarage]The marketing claims very low NVH, which is partially true. On a fairly good stretch of freeway, it's like stock. But on a bad patch of road, it's like BANG, BANG, BANG. So the compromise is that feedback. Get turn-in that is crisper and just way better in feel, or get that comfort thing, but deal also with really vague-feedback.

It was mentioned above that the Dinan monoballs have some rubber in them to damp out this harshness. Is this likely to be any better?

Background - I have a 2017 430i F33 with base suspension and I'd like to improve the suspension while minimizing additional harshness.
Step 1 - Staggered tires for better grip (done)
Step 2 - Strut brace (done)
Step 3 - Sway bars (to be bought soon)
Step 4 - Monoballs in the Tension Strut ?

https://www.dinancars.com/products/s...arts/D280-0014

Of course, I'm always open to suggestions, but the roads around here aren't the best maintained.

[exE36M3]

@SD Convert
Well I haven't met or driven with anyone with the Dinan Monoball versions. So I can't claim much knowledge there. Farkle runs the KMACs if I recall right, and FWIW, his posts and take a similar... there's a noticeable increase in ride harshness. Maybe not a much as mine, but overall it's a common thread with the monoball set-up.

IF I had to do it again, I'd probably try the M4 arms kit. It's about $100+ less, and you pick up about -.5 camber. Given they are BMW proper, the ride quality would be about as good as it gets with a monoball. Oddly enough, people who have test driven the M4 versus the 4-series talk about a significant difference in ride quality.

But as car guys, I think we are all good with trading some ride quality for handling?
Pushing a year later now... I'm used to it and love the way the car turns. So night and day. Camber plates are coming soon so can't wait for those!

[exE36M3]

Hey John, sheesh, not sure how I missed your comment.
Farkle's AWD F31 is closer to your car than my 435i RWD.
But if you are coming to the conclusion that a monoball control/thrust/tension arm will give you a better turn in and steering feel, the answer is yes. I'm going on 1 year now with my set-up. I still LOVE it. Those harsh pot-holes or road imperfections, yes, they hit hard... but my roadways are ok enough that those occurences happen maybe once or twice a week tops. If the road is smooth and with lots of turns, you are going to LOVE these things.

Last I was reading, the KMACs are about the only AWD option at this point that anyone's used tested.
And yes, maybe getting new controls arm and pressing in the monoball is the ideal way to go.

Farkle may chime in.

-Percy

Originally Posted by johnung

I have been attracted by comments that I've read that if the front suspension is upgraded with monoballs, it would improve steering feel and precision without adding detrimental NVH.

I've got a '15 335i xDrive with Eibach (-06), KoniSA's, H&R Sways and a Weickert Strut Bar. Summer tires are MPS4S in 245/40-18. Street performance without any tracking planned. 37k miles so far.

My head is spinning from reading threads, retailer websites and manufacture websites about monoball components.

I understand that there aren't many monoball front suspension products for F3x xDrive. Are there any others in addition to the K-MAC Part# 193916-7J, described as bushing kit for front caster thrust arm? ~$380/pair

I've read this part called by three different names: "upper control arm", "tension strut" and "front control arm". They all seem to refer to BMW Part# 31126854723 & ...24. (BMW OEM ~$132/each) (Lemforder ~$82/each, makes them for BMW)

I understand that the aluminum control arms stretch and bend over time with use. So I assume that it would be best to have monoballs installed into new Lemforder control arms, rather than reuse 5-year old original control arms.

Would you recommend these parts to meet the goals of better steering feel without adding NVH? Are there other suspension components that should be changed at the same time? Would the standard alignment specs be best, or how should the alignment specifications be changed?

Any input is greatly appreciated!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

Hey John, sheesh, not sure how I missed your comment.
Farkle's AWD F31 is closer to your car than my 435i RWD.
But if you are coming to the conclusion that a monoball control/thrust/tension arm will give you a better turn in and steering feel, the answer is yes. I'm going on 1 year now with my set-up. I still LOVE it. Those harsh pot-holes or road imperfections, yes, they hit hard... but my roadways are ok enough that those occurences happen maybe once or twice a week tops. If the road is smooth and with lots of turns, you are going to LOVE these things.

Last I was reading, the KMACs are about the only AWD option at this point that anyone's used tested.
And yes, maybe getting new controls arm and pressing in the monoball is the ideal way to go.

Farkle may chime in.

-Percy

Actually I took my 335i xDrive over to VAC Motorsports a few months ago and got their thrust arm (UCA) monoballs installed. Huge difference in steering precision during acceleration and during braking.

No added NVH, Noise Vibration Harshness. Instead I'd say that there is more road feel transmitted through to the steering wheel. The steering no longer feels vague and numb.

VAC takes brand new Lemforder control arms and removes the standard bushings. Then they press in their monoball bushings. (Lemforder makes the control arms for BMW.) So it's a brand new aluminum arm, with a new ball joint and a monoball bushings. All of the dimensions are completely stock so the alignment geometry remains stock.

VAC has monoball upper control arms (also called thrust arms and tension struts) that improve steering precision for both xDrive and RWD models. VAC also has monoball lower control arms (wishbones) for both xDrive and RWD. Monoball LCA's will tighten up the suspension but do not directly effect steering like the UCA.

If you order make certain to specify xDrive or RWD. They have different Lemforder/BMW part numbers.

[exE36M3]

Woo hoo, thanks John! Those look like ART!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

Woo hoo, thanks John! Those look like ART!

Top notch engineering/racing organization. Very impressive!

[Gen13 F36]

These bring me back to my old days. SPL Parts did the trick on my S14. Love to get some of these done.

Damn this forum got me itch'n for some track fun which is currently off my budget

[SD Convert]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

@SD Convert
IF I had to do it again, I'd probably try the M4 arms kit. It's about $100+ less, and you pick up about -.5 camber. Given they are BMW proper, the ride quality would be about as good as it gets with a monoball. Oddly enough, people who have test driven the M4 versus the 4-series talk about a significant difference in ride quality.

M4 arm kit? Do you mean these?

https://www.getbmwparts.com/oem-part...rm-31122284531
https://www.getbmwparts.com/oem-part...rm-31122284532

This is a daily driver. I'd like to not have too rough of a ride.

Will that -0.5 degrees of camber cause tire wear issues?

[exE36M3]

@SD Convert - The M4 arm kit is also sold by ECS tuning and Turner Motorsports. And yes, it's THE OEM M4 arms. If you are a RWD 4-series, these bolt right up.

No -.5 of camber won't cause any significant wear issues. You can push -2 to -2.5 and still not see bad tire wear. -2 is a good front street camber for handling. Stock is about -.75, so going to -1.25 will net you a mildly better handling car.

Ride quality, so the monoball won't make the car ride much harsher. It's rough road feel that's the difference. Meaning, on a decent patch of road or freeway, you won't notice a thing. But pick potholes or REALLY bad roads, a monoball will translates some harshness. If you get a chance to test drive an M4 on rough road, that would give you a good idea of the ride quality.

I'm going on 1 year with the monoball, the turn-in and road feel is AMAZING.
It looks like VAC motorsports has just starting releasing their monoball with pretty good ride quality.
I suggested the M4 versions that it's the least expensive and offers the most OEM ride right now for about $400-$450. IMHO!

[SD Convert]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

The M4 arm kit is also sold by ECS tuning and Turner Motorsports. And yes, it's THE OEM M4 arms. If you are a RWD 4-series, these bolt right up.

I suggested the M4 versions that it's the least expensive and offers the most OEM ride right now for about $400-$450. IMHO!

Good information. Thank you. From the links in my previous post, they come in at $342 from GetBMWParts. Is there a good reason to get them from ECS or Turner at $9 more per link?

Originally Posted by exE36M3

No -.5 of camber won't cause any significant wear issues. You can push -2 to -2.5 and still not see bad tire wear. -2 is a good front street camber for handling. Stock is about -.75, so going to -1.25 will net you a mildly better handling car.

That's about what I thought, but it never hurts to verify. Thank you.

I expect I'll need to get new tires in a few months. I think I'll pick up the M4 links and have them installed with the new tires, before the alignment.

Are there any other suspension tweaks that I should be looking into that will deliver a significant improvement? I think I'm approaching the end of the "low hanging fruit" on this project, but it never hurts to ask.

[exE36M3]

Get the M4 arms for whatever low price you can get. I *think* some shops will sell you the arms as a pair and include the head-light leveling rod for just under $400.

Details with Turner...
(https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/)

That's about all the suspension ideas I have for a stock car.
Past this you are looking at new springs/shocks.

Best wishes on your car journey!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

@SD Convert - The M4 arm kit is also sold by ECS tuning and Turner Motorsports. And yes, it's THE OEM M4 arms. If you are a RWD 4-series, these bolt right up.

No -.5 of camber won't cause any significant wear issues. You can push -2 to -2.5 and still not see bad tire wear. -2 is a good front street camber for handling. Stock is about -.75, so going to -1.25 will net you a mildly better handling car.

Ride quality, so the monoball won't make the car ride much harsher. It's rough road feel that's the difference. Meaning, on a decent patch of road or freeway, you won't notice a thing. But pick potholes or REALLY bad roads, a monoball will translates some harshness. If you get a chance to test drive an M4 on rough road, that would give you a good idea of the ride quality.

I'm going on 1 year with the monoball, the turn-in and road feel is AMAZING.
It looks like VAC motorsports has just starting releasing their monoball with pretty good ride quality.
I suggested the M4 versions that it's the least expensive and offers the most OEM ride right now for about $400-$450. IMHO!

I have the VAC Monoball Upper Control Arms on my F3x xDrive. Makes the steering much more precise upon acceleration and on braking. I wouldn't describe it as adding Noise/Vibration/Harshness. It adds road feel transmitted through the steering wheel, which fixes the complaint often voiced by E-series owners who buy F-series.

VAC sells the monoballs installed in brand new upper control arms so the installation is simplified. VAC sells them for both xDrive and RWD. They are in stock Upper Control Arms so no alignment changes and no broken front axles in xDrive

[skier_du]

Here's the original thread for the VAC Monoballs. It's kinda' buried in the forum at the moment. Lots of info in there of how they are constructed, look, feel, drive and even the diy posted by FaRKle! and andino.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1656299

[SD Convert]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

@SD Convert
IF I had to do it again, I'd probably try the M4 arms kit.

I finally had some spare time to do more research.

In this post (https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=46), it's mentioned that the M4 LCA is a monoball, but the UCA (Thrust/Tension arm) has a bushing. Checking the replacement parts on GetBMWParts.com, the part number for the bushing is the same on both the stock and M4 arms.

The M4 UCA will get more Camber, but at the cost of less thread in the tie rod assembly. It will NOT give you a stiffer bushing.

Now we're down to VAC or Dinan monoballs. Has anyone tried the Dinans?

[exE36M3]

Hey SD, so you got me! I was incorrect! I mistook the M4 (lower) control arms for the Upper/Thrust/Control arms.

So IF I had to do it all over again... I'd probably weigh the Turner Monoball or the VAC based on cost.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by SD Convert

I finally had some spare time to do more research.

In this post (https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=46), it's mentioned that the M4 LCA is a monoball, but the UCA (Thrust/Tension arm) has a bushing. Checking the replacement parts on GetBMWParts.com, the part number for the bushing is the same on both the stock and M4 arms.

The M4 UCA will get more Camber, but at the cost of less thread in the tie rod assembly. It will NOT give you a stiffer bushing.

Now we're down to VAC or Dinan monoballs. Has anyone tried the Dinans?

I've got the VAC Monoball Thrust Arms. Huge difference in steering precision on both acceleration and on braking. No added Noise/Vibration/Harshness, just more road feel through the steering wheel. The typical F3x steering vagueness is gone.

I researched them all. VAC has the best design/engineering. Their custom built monoball bushings come pressed into brand new Lemforder control arms with new ball joints. So alignment specs stay stock and no danger of breaking drive shafts. (Lemforder makes control arms for BMW.) VAC has xDrive and RWD models.

Kies Motorsports stocks them, so no waiting for them to be built by the manufacturer. Here's a link to the xDrive Thrust Arms that I have...
(note: description incorrectly says rwd, but xd part number is correct)

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/coll...3603157?aff=22

Here are the RWD Thrust Arms...

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/coll...8819029?aff=22

[SD Convert]

Originally Posted by johnung

I've got the VAC Monoball Thrust Arms. Huge difference in steering precision on both acceleration and on braking. No added Noise/Vibration/Harshness, just more road feel through the steering wheel. The typical F3x steering vagueness is gone.

I researched them all. VAC has the best design/engineering. Their custom built monoball bushings come pressed into brand new Lemforder control arms with new ball joints. So alignment specs stay stock and no danger of breaking drive shafts. (Lemforder makes control arms for BMW.) VAC has xDrive and RWD models.

Here are the RWD Thrust Arms...

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/coll...8819029?aff=22

Good information, and thanks for the links.

As far as I can tell, those are the non-M arms they put the Monoballs into, and I can't find the M-series arms on their site. If I'm going to spend this much, based on the information above, and from other sources, I'll be switching to the M-series arms (upper and lower). I've got excessive wear on the outer edges of the front tires, and the change in camber should improve that, along with making the steering a bit more responsive.

The problem (I believe someone mentioned this above) is that the inner tie rod doesn't thread as far into the outer tie rod. At this time, I'm guessing I can fix this by switching to the M-series inner tie rod (the outer tie rod is the same for all 3 & 4 series cars, including the M3 & M4). More research is needed to determine if this is the case.

I guess it's a good thing that I'm not in a hurry for this

Originally Posted by exE36M3

Hey SD, so you got me! I was incorrect! I mistook the M4 (lower) control arms for the Upper/Thrust/Control arms.

So IF I had to do it all over again... I'd probably weigh the Turner Monoball or the VAC based on cost.

Not a problem. I've always believed that a day without learning is a wasted day. The information you provided, along with the information from others, caused me to do the research. Thanks

While the component cost can add up, I believe it'll be a lot less expensive to do this one CORRECTLY than to do it wrong and have to fix it.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by SD Convert

Good information, and thanks for the links. As far as I can tell, those are the non-M arms they put the Monoballs into, and I can't find the M-series arms on their site. If I'm going to spend this much, based on the information above, and from other sources, I'll be switching to the M-series arms (upper and lower). I've got excessive wear on the outer edges of the front tires, and the change in camber should improve that, along with making the steering a bit more responsive.

The problem (I believe someone mentioned this above) is that the inner tie rod doesn't thread as far into the outer tie rod. At this time, I'm guessing I can fix this by switching to the M-series inner tie rod (the outer tie rod is the same for all 3 & 4 series cars, including the M3 & M4). More research is needed to determine if this is the case.

I guess it's a good thing that I'm not in a hurry for this

VAC is using stock F3x Lemforder control arms and pressing their custom monoball bushings into them. The idea is to allow xDrive cars that can't use M3/M4 control arms without breaking half shafts, to get the Monoball benefits. RWD F3x cars can get the Monoball benefits without changing their suspension geometry.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by SD Convert

Good information, and thanks for the links.

As far as I can tell, those are the non-M arms they put the Monoballs into, and I can't find the M-series arms on their site. If I'm going to spend this much, based on the information above, and from other sources, I'll be switching to the M-series arms (upper and lower). I've got excessive wear on the outer edges of the front tires, and the change in camber should improve that, along with making the steering a bit more responsive.

The problem (I believe someone mentioned this above) is that the inner tie rod doesn't thread as far into the outer tie rod. At this time, I'm guessing I can fix this by switching to the M-series inner tie rod (the outer tie rod is the same for all 3 & 4 series cars, including the M3 & M4). More research is needed to determine if this is the case.

I guess it's a good thing that I'm not in a hurry for this

Not a problem. I've always believed that a day without learning is a wasted day

While the component cost can add up, I believe it'll be a lot less expensive to do this one CORRECTLY than to do it wrong and have to fix it.

As far as the price, it appears to me to be competitive when I considered that I was getting brand new control arms and ball joints along with the monoballs pre-installed.

My understanding is that VAC didn't want to just sell separate monoball bushings. They wanted to offer a complete plug and play solution where they could control the installation and make sure that it was all up to their high standards.

[blumagic]

Originally Posted by johnung

As far as the price, it appears to me to be competitive when I considered that I was getting brand new control arms and ball joints along with the monoballs pre-installed.

My understanding is that VAC didn't want to just sell separate monoball bushings. They wanted to offer a complete plug and play solution where they could control the installation and make sure that it was all up to their high standards.

Very competitive, just had bmw do an inspection because I’m at the dreaded 69k miles on an n26 and they said both bushings were leaking and the quote was $850. Obviously I could buy a cheaper part than vac and install myself but I’d rather have the vac in there and forget about it and enjoy it.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by blumagic

Very competitive, just had bmw do an inspection because I’m at the dreaded 69k miles on an n26 and they said both bushings were leaking and the quote was $850. Obviously I could buy a cheaper part than vac and install myself but I’d rather have the vac in there and forget about it and enjoy it.

I've had them for several months. Make a huge difference. The steering should have been like this from the factory. A couple of my buddies are getting the Thrust Arms installed at Kies Motorsports.

[Mrlten]

It seems that VAC also sells upgraded lower control arms. Could someone explain what the benefits of those monobal LCA's are? And are there any downsides like a lot of NVH?