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      12-23-2019, 04:35 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
of course it will. bigger turbo will have better flow and will need less wgdc, bigger turbo always makes more power with same boost vs small turbo. check VTT post where they just changed turbo and gained 48whp with exactly the same tune. Engine is pump. flow is important.
Flow is important but not the end all be all. If you look at the fuel trims of his log, you'll see that at times it was injecting over 20% more fuel than the tune demanded just to keep up with the additional airflow. If you are fuel limited, then all you'll do is crash the fuel pump, lean out, and potentially damage your engine. We're just lucky that our DME is advanced enough to protect itself from these scenarios, so you can dyno with the stock turbo tune for testing purposes.

So no, a bigger turbo with the same fuel supply won't make more power, because more air needs more fuel. If you are fuel limited, then you will not be able to make more power with a bigger turbo. In fact, you will need to run the larger turbo at a lower boost pressure. Please don't go blowing up your engine thinking otherwise.
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      12-23-2019, 06:28 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by J3Vr6 View Post
So based on the above and all other things being equal (turbo, tune, bolt-on's), is the XDI the best future proofing option? These things scale based on need, correct? Ie. if the car is stock, the pump will perform at stock flow (as needed), and increase as the demand requires up to its above-mentioned limits (1.221 cc/rev)?
Yes, scalable, but you will need to tune to suit via MHD, BM3 etc even for stock hardware and tuning level

The HDP 6 should see about 500whp with stock turbo.

I'm thinking the Dorch Stage 1 and XDI-35 should be right for about 580whp with a turbo upgrade and Dorch Stage 2 and XDI-60 to about 680whp with something like the Pure800
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      12-23-2019, 10:04 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzBMR View Post
Yes, scalable, but you will need to tune to suit via MHD, BM3 etc even for stock hardware and tuning level

The HDP 6 should see about 500whp with stock turbo.

I'm thinking the XDI-35 should be right for about 580whp with a turbo upgrade and XDI-60 to about 680whp with something like the Pure800
These whp figures are fairly accurate for our Stage 1 and Stage 2 as well (slightly lower). However, this is assuming E10 or lower fuel. We will see how much further they can be pushed very soon!

Thanks for explaining the math earlier in the thread. We've been MIA trying to finish more kits and get more data! One thing to note here is the B58 has a 3 x 5.0mm camshaft lobe (the 4.7mm applies to N55). Also, these flow figures are simply based on swept volume to achieve a generalized "apples to apples" comparison between the pumps. This gives everyone a good idea where each pump ends up in terms of horsepower, but it assumes 100% VE. Taking into consideration the VE of each pump, along with different tuning strategies (AFR, torque and SOI manipulation, etc.) and ethanol blends, we sometimes end up with varied results. This is why we have been pushing customers and ourselves for more results. The last thing we want to sell is an empty promise! Stay tuned for more dyno graphs and datalogs after the holidays.
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      12-24-2019, 05:49 AM   #70
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lol, same tune, same load targets, same lambda means it injects same fuel amount, where do you see more air? power is better because of lower backpressure and better flow. I can only repeat that bigger turbo with the sane tune (it can be stock tune also) WILL make better power and same tune means engine will get SAME amount of air because load targets are same.

example : N55 ewg. stock turbo can easily max out hpfp. you set it on the hpfp limit ~1.15-1.2 bar at high rpms and get ~410hp max. PS2 same hpfp same boost same load and you get 450-460hp. Itís hard to believe that there are still some people not understanding these basics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Flow is important but not the end all be all. If you look at the fuel trims of his log, you'll see that at times it was injecting over 20% more fuel than the tune demanded just to keep up with the additional airflow. If you are fuel limited, then all you'll do is crash the fuel pump, lean out, and potentially damage your engine. We're just lucky that our DME is advanced enough to protect itself from these scenarios, so you can dyno with the stock turbo tune for testing purposes.

So no, a bigger turbo with the same fuel supply won't make more power, because more air needs more fuel. If you are fuel limited, then you will not be able to make more power with a bigger turbo. In fact, you will need to run the larger turbo at a lower boost pressure. Please don't go blowing up your engine thinking otherwise.

Last edited by enemigo13; 12-24-2019 at 06:08 AM..
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      12-24-2019, 07:09 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
lol, same tune, same load targets, same lambda means it injects same fuel amount, where do you see more air? power is better because of lower backpressure and better flow. I can only repeat that bigger turbo with the sane tune (it can be stock tune also) WILL make better power and same tune means engine will get SAME amount of air because load targets are same.

example : N55 ewg. stock turbo can easily max out hpfp. you set it on the hpfp limit ~1.15-1.2 bar at high rpms and get ~410hp max. PS2 same hpfp same boost same load and you get 450-460hp. Itís hard to believe that there are still some people not understanding these basics.
I agree that the larger turbine will result in less backpressure, which would equate to more power (all things constant).

However, check this:
Two compressors both making 16psi.
The larger of the two compressors would make the same psi with a denser charge.
Denser charge has more oxygen
Thatís where more fuel is needed for the same A/F ratio

Both are valid points IMHO
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      12-24-2019, 08:11 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
lol, same tune, same load targets, same lambda means it injects same fuel amount, where do you see more air? power is better because of lower backpressure and better flow. I can only repeat that bigger turbo with the sane tune (it can be stock tune also) WILL make better power and same tune means engine will get SAME amount of air because load targets are same.

example : N55 ewg. stock turbo can easily max out hpfp. you set it on the hpfp limit ~1.15-1.2 bar at high rpms and get ~410hp max. PS2 same hpfp same boost same load and you get 450-460hp. It’s hard to believe that there are still some people not understanding these basics.
You do realize that hybrid turbos make more power because they flow more air, right? That's why people add meth/fuel pumps when upgrading turbos. You need more fuel to support the additional airflow.

Here's VTT's GC log.
https://datazap.me/u/vargasturbotech...og=0&data=4-19

Note the STFT. That's the easiest way to see what fueling is actually doing since we don't have an injection timing parameters to monitor. It's relative to the stock injection mapping. The DME can only adjust so much (typically up to +/- 30%) so while it can make more power, it's not safe. It is constantly compensating for varying fuel quality, ignition, etc. and operating near the limit reduces your safety net.

Also, hybrid turbos like pure and VTT add bigger compressors with the same size turbine housing. So you can actually increase back pressure. That's why a proper big turbo with appropriate A/R is more efficient. Hybrids are cheaper and flow more air than stock so you'll have more potential hp, but it sacrifices efficiency.

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      12-24-2019, 09:32 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
lol, same tune, same load targets, same lambda means it injects same fuel amount, where do you see more air? power is better because of lower backpressure and better flow. I can only repeat that bigger turbo with the sane tune (it can be stock tune also) WILL make better power and same tune means engine will get SAME amount of air because load targets are same.

example : N55 ewg. stock turbo can easily max out hpfp. you set it on the hpfp limit ~1.15-1.2 bar at high rpms and get ~410hp max. PS2 same hpfp same boost same load and you get 450-460hp. It's hard to believe that there are still some people not understanding these basics.
You do realize that hybrid turbos make more power because they flow more air, right? That's why people add meth/fuel pumps when upgrading turbos. You need more fuel to support the additional airflow.

Here's VTT's GC log.
https://datazap.me/u/vargasturbotech...&data=4-19

Note the STFT. That's the easiest way to see what fueling is actually doing since we don't have an injection timing parameters to monitor. It's relative to the stock injection mapping. The DME can only adjust so much (typically up to +/- 30%) so while it can make more power, it's not safe. It is constantly compensating for varying fuel quality, ignition, etc. and operating near the limit reduces your safety net.

Also, hybrid turbos like pure and VTT add bigger compressors with the same size turbine housing. So you can actually increase back pressure. That's why a proper big turbo with appropriate A/R is more efficient. Hybrids are cheaper and flow more air than stock so you'll have more potential hp, but it sacrifices efficiency.

This is all great information and I appreciate you guys going into the technicalities. Just want to note the vtt turbos are not hybrid.
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      12-24-2019, 10:17 AM   #74
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STFT is dependant on fuel you use, add more e85 and STFT will go up. people add fueling/meth because hybrid turbos can give much more boost than stock -> stock fueling is not enough in n55/b58 case. required fueling is calculated not by boost (as air can be hot/cold) but by load (%) - itís calculated value from boost, IAT, maf readings, etc. and yes for the same load will be same fueling no matter what turbo you use. and yes with the bigger turbo and same load engine will produce more power. PS2 has way bigger turbine wheel than stock N55, and itís one of the factors why it gives 30-40 hp more than stock turbo with exactly the same tune without any extra fueling. but to use its full potential (1.6 bar 550hp) extra fuel will be needed for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
You do realize that hybrid turbos make more power because they flow more air, right? That's why people add meth/fuel pumps when upgrading turbos. You need more fuel to support the additional airflow.

Here's VTT's GC log.
https://datazap.me/u/vargasturbotech...og=0&data=4-19

Note the STFT. That's the easiest way to see what fueling is actually doing since we don't have an injection timing parameters to monitor. It's relative to the stock injection mapping. The DME can only adjust so much (typically up to +/- 30%) so while it can make more power, it's not safe. It is constantly compensating for varying fuel quality, ignition, etc. and operating near the limit reduces your safety net.

Also, hybrid turbos like pure and VTT add bigger compressors with the same size turbine housing. So you can actually increase back pressure. That's why a proper big turbo with appropriate A/R is more efficient. Hybrids are cheaper and flow more air than stock so you'll have more potential hp, but it sacrifices efficiency.

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      12-24-2019, 10:34 AM   #75
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I read somewhere that a bigger turbo produce cooler charge which explained the higher HP numbers.
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      12-25-2019, 07:21 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD11937 View Post
This is all great information and I appreciate you guys going into the technicalities. Just want to note the vtt turbos are not hybrid.
The GC that they are offering is a hybrid. It's a GT30 wheel that goes into the stock turbofold. The GC+ will be a full replacement of compressor and turbine housing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
STFT is dependant on fuel you use, add more e85 and STFT will go up. people add fueling/meth because hybrid turbos can give much more boost than stock -> stock fueling is not enough in n55/b58 case. required fueling is calculated not by boost (as air can be hot/cold) but by load (%) - it’s calculated value from boost, IAT, maf readings, etc. and yes for the same load will be same fueling no matter what turbo you use. and yes with the bigger turbo and same load engine will produce more power. PS2 has way bigger turbine wheel than stock N55, and it’s one of the factors why it gives 30-40 hp more than stock turbo with exactly the same tune without any extra fueling. but to use its full potential (1.6 bar 550hp) extra fuel will be needed for sure.
It's not just dependent on the fuel you use. When things happen like vacuum leaks, damaged sensors, or even bigger turbos, it compensates to keep AFRs in check. It's your immediate safety net, because solely calculating fueling based on load will not work with real life scenarios where you see changes in elevations, fuel quality, etc. that is not a part of the load calculation. They were running all the same hardware/fuel, just changed the turbo. The trims changed to compensate. So yeah, it made more power. But it added fuel to prevent engine damage. If it hadn't added more fuel, it would have leaned out.

A lot of people are making 440whp+ on stock fuel system. So making that much with a bigger turbo isn't a surprise. But you can see in the log that he's hitting the fuel limit as pressures drop. Again, it works and makes power. But not safe when you've eaten into your safety net.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
I read somewhere that a bigger turbo produce cooler charge which explained the higher HP numbers.
It just depends.
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      12-25-2019, 08:55 AM   #77
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I apologize this is getting off topic and not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get my facts straight. This is taken from the vtt website:

Key Design Elements:

All new castings with factory restrictions removed. No oversized wheels stuffed into factory housings here!

Because it's an entirely new casting doesn't that by definition make it not a hybrid turbo?
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      12-25-2019, 12:28 PM   #78
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New compressor housing
Stock turbine housing
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      12-25-2019, 12:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by B50AteYourRide View Post
New compressor housing
Stock turbine housing
Got it, thanks for clarifying.
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      12-25-2019, 01:15 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD11937 View Post
Got it, thanks for clarifying.
GC+ will have a new turbine housing though. Really its the better option, but the GC price is hard to beat. And at the end of the day, for big numbers I'd prefer a Doc Race style kit.
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      12-25-2019, 01:20 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD11937 View Post
Got it, thanks for clarifying.
GC+ will have a new turbine housing though. Really its the better option, but the GC price is hard to beat. And at the end of the day, for big numbers I'd prefer a Doc Race style kit.
Definitely, I'm only looking to make 500-550whp so the vtt has been really tempting. But I think you are right, wait for the gc+
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      12-25-2019, 05:40 PM   #82
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Updated Thread

Updated the Dorch Engineering HPFP Section, added my personal thoughts on the pump so far, as well as updated the datalogs.

Quote:
My thoughts on the Dorch Stage 1 HPFP so far:

I would highly recommend this pump to anyone who is looking to get more power out of their stock turbo, so far we've been able to push my car on E50 way past what I was able to with E30+Meth. Install was easy, everything you need is included in box. It probably took us about an hour or less to install.

I cannot speak from experience to how well this pump will hold up with an upgraded turbo, but I believe if you are only planning on using pump gas (not E85) it would be perfect choice for the Pure 800, Pure Stg 2, Vargas GC, etc. If you want to push these turbos even farther i'd recommend buying the Dorch Stage 2 HPFP as it will give you a lot more fuel to work with.

**I'll be updating this when I receive my Pure 800 turbo. I am planning on pushing the Dorch Stage 1 to the max with the Pure 800 to see how much power it will allow for, then once I do that i'll be exchanging my Stage 1 pump for a Stage 2 and doing a review on that as well. So stay tuned.
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      12-26-2019, 02:48 PM   #83
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Supra Pump DIY
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1680853
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      12-27-2019, 09:07 AM   #84
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Thanks, kern417. Just saw it. So question: In the video (and I know I've read this elsewhere), while explaining the increased fuel pressure vs stock, kern says that we have an internal fuel pressure regulator that will keep the increased pressure down to what the car needs. If that's the case, why do we need to have a custom tune?
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      12-27-2019, 03:12 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J3Vr6 View Post
Thanks, kern417. Just saw it. So question: In the video (and I know I've read this elsewhere), while explaining the increased fuel pressure vs stock, kern says that we have an internal fuel pressure regulator that will keep the increased pressure down to what the car needs. If that's the case, why do we need to have a custom tune?
You don't need a tune to run the TU pump. You do need a tune to take advantage of it and make more power.

I finally got a datalog today. Running BM3 Stage 1 93 OTS map.
https://datazap.me/u/kern4179/stage-1-93-tu-pump
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      12-27-2019, 07:22 PM   #86
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@SC_B5X have you had a chance to dyno your car with wedge tune? Curious how much more power we can get with upgraded hpfp.
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      12-27-2019, 07:31 PM   #87
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B58

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by J3Vr6 View Post
Thanks, kern417. Just saw it. So question: In the video (and I know I've read this elsewhere), while explaining the increased fuel pressure vs stock, kern says that we have an internal fuel pressure regulator that will keep the increased pressure down to what the car needs. If that's the case, why do we need to have a custom tune?
You don't need a tune to run the TU pump. You do need a tune to take advantage of it and make more power.

I finally got a datalog today. Running BM3 Stage 1 93 OTS map.
https://datazap.me/u/kern4179/stage-1-93-tu-pump
Any difference on stage1 OTS with stock pump?
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      12-28-2019, 07:47 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janea1207 View Post
Any difference on stage1 OTS with stock pump?
Nope
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