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      01-27-2020, 11:20 AM   #1
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Official Turbo Upgrade comparison thread

Edit - just watch this. Seriously.


So it looks like a lot of people are getting fueling in place and probably ready to start seriously weighing turbo upgrades (I know I am). I think SC_B5X official HPFP options thread was really nice and organized and would be nice to do one like that for turbo options.

This post is a work in progress, adding info as I receive it. Post your suggestions and info and I'll add it in. I'm using info I've pulled from websites and other threads here so if you disagree with any of the data points, shout it out and let's figure out what it should be.

HYBRID OPTIONS
  • Pure Stage 1
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum): 93 octane, stock HPFP (HDP5)
    • Other recommended supporting mods: Upgraded DP, flash tune of choice
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo: HDP6 or Dorch Stage 1
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met): ~550 WHP
    • Core deposit required: Y
    • Cost: $1195
    • Style/Design info, including compressor wheel and turbine housing specs: Hybrid, slightly larger turbine and compressor than stock
    • Installation difficulty: same as any hybrid turbo/stock replacement
    • Impact to daily driveability: None
  • Pure Stage 2 (replaced by Pure800)
  • Pure800
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum): HDP6 or Dorch stage 1
    • Other recommended supporting mods: Upgraded DP, flash tune of choice
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo: Stage 2 HPFP + meth
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met): ~750 WHP (670 without meth)
    • Other observed HP values at less than max fueling: 586 WHP on pump gas
    • Core deposit required: Y
    • Cost: $2500 + $195 install kit
    • Style/Design info, including compressor wheel and turbine housing specs: Larger compressor wheel, larger turbine wheel, larger internals, and completely CNC machined
    • Installation difficulty: Exhaust manifold mounting bracket issues. Install kit highly recommended
    • Impact to daily driveability: May be some, but need more feedback from users. 500 ft/lbs of torque at 3K RPM
  • Vargas Turbo Tech GC (Taking orders in March 2020; Shipping in April 2020)
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum):HDP6 or Dorch stage 1
    • Other recommended supporting mods: Upgraded DP, flash tune of choice
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo: Dorch Stage 2 for E85 or add meth
    • Observed WHP on E50/Dorch Stage 2: 600 WHP/600TQ; Peak boost around 28psi, running about 27 to redline 18 degrees of advance
    • 100-200 kmh on E50 with Dorch Stage 2: 6.34 seconds
    • Other observed HP values at less than max fueling:500-520 WHP on 93 octane on B58TU pump
    • Core deposit required: No
    • Cost: $1599.00
    • Style/Design info, including compressor wheel and turbine housing specs: Comparable in size to a Garrett GTX3076R Gen 2 compressor wheel, journal bearing
    • Installation difficulty: same as any hybrid turbo/stock replacement
    • Impact to daily driveability: Minimal. Stock spool; 500 WTQ by mid 2K RPM range
  • Vargas Turbo Tech GC+ (Release in May/June 2020)
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum):HDP6 or Dorch stage 1
    • Other recommended supporting mods: Upgraded DP, flash tune of choice
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo: Dorch Stage 2 for E85 or add meth
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met): 800-850 WHP
    • Other observed HP values at less than max fueling:
    • Core deposit required: No
    • Cost: TBD
    • Style/Design info, including compressor wheel and turbine housing specs: Technically not a hybrid. New cast turbine housing and manifold. Utilizes a Garrett GTX3582R-sized CHRA; Garrett RS turbine wheel profile; Gen 2 compressor wheel, journal bearing
    • Installation difficulty:
    • Impact to daily driveability:
  • TTE 580 Hybrid
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum):
    • Other recommended supporting mods:
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo:
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met): 580 WHP
    • Core deposit required: No
    • Cost: €4,675 new; €1,700 upgrade existing
    • Style/Design info, including compressor wheel and turbine housing specs: Larger billet wheel with extended tip, milled compressor cover, larger 9 blade turbine
    • Installation difficulty:
    • Impact to daily driveability:
BIG TURBO KITS
  • Doc Race
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum): Dorch Stage 1+meth
    • Other recommended supporting mods: FBO
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo:
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met): 800 WHP+
    • Other observed HP values at less than max fueling:662 WHP with Dorch Stage 1+meth
    • Core deposit required: No
    • Cost: $6,000
    • Style/Design info: BorgWarner EFR 9176 Turbo, ball-bearing, top mount, custom downpipe
    • Installation difficulty:
  • Big Boost Stage 3
    • Fueling requirements (recommended minimum):
    • Other recommended supporting mods: FBO
    • Low-end HP range with minimum fueling req:
    • Fueling requirements to max out turbo:
    • Max HP potential (with max fueling needs met):
    • Core deposit required:
    • Cost:
    • Style/Design info:
    • Installation difficulty: High to Very High

Other suggested turbo options? We can add the VTT GC+ later when we know more about it.

Other suggested items to include for each option?
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Last edited by Supr3me; 11-21-2020 at 11:37 AM..
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      01-27-2020, 11:31 AM   #2
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Big boost.
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      01-27-2020, 11:33 AM   #3
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Also Doc Race

Recommendations:

Group by options by hybrid vs true Big Turbo
List recommended supporting mods
If you list max HP potential, keep it at that. HP is heavily dependent on supporting mods so "expected" HP is an unknown variable.
Link dynos as people post them in the future (Don't post screenshots, it'll take up too much space on the OP)

I love how our development is ramping up lately
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-27-2020, 12:37 PM   #4
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Edited to include suggestions. I only see Stage 3 on Big Boost website, not sure if they offer any Stage 1 or 2 options.
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      01-27-2020, 01:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SĶpreme View Post
Edited to include suggestions. I only see Stage 3 on Big Boost website, not sure if they offer any Stage 1 or 2 options.
Their kit is a big turbo kit as well. Same category as Doc Race and VTT GC+ (whenever it's released)

VTT GC and all of the pure options are hybrids that keep the factory exhaust housing.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-27-2020, 01:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Their kit is a big turbo kit as well. Same category as Doc Race and VTT GC+ (whenever it's released)

VTT GC and all of the pure options are hybrids that keep the factory exhaust housing.
Thanks, adjusted.
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      01-27-2020, 01:56 PM   #7
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Hell yeah, i'll give you updates on the Pure 800 as I go.
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      01-27-2020, 02:53 PM   #8
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Go ahead and just put the Big Boost installation difficulty as a 12/5 lol
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-27-2020, 03:32 PM   #9
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Does anyone specifically know the difference between the Pure Stage 2 and the 800? I thought the 800 was replacing the Stage 2. There is little information of a technical variety on their website. I was told that with Pure, the wheels were based on Mitsubishi designs, can anyone verify that? Forced Performance has had great results with Mitsubishi wheels.

Also, Pure requires a core where Vargas doesnít. I get that Vargas has their own compressor housings, so in a drop in situation, a core isnít necessary. I heard Pure machines the cores to accept their wheels. Where Iím curious is on the turbine side. If thatís true, it would be preferable to machining the wheel to fit the housing. With Pure, do you get new bearings and all?

What I really want to know is if Pure does any significant machining to the OEM turbine housing on either the Stage 2 or the 800? Theoretically, it is possible that they could machine the turbine housing. Theoretically, enough machining could be done to change the turbine A/R. Changing the turbine A/R would be a material difference in flow. I think with the B58, improvements on the turbine side will make a bigger difference than the compressor side from what I have heard.

A step better, for flow purposes, would be a Garrett G30 turbine or GTX 35 turbine, not that it has to be Garrett, but their sizes sort of are a standard. I would love to see a G30. The Vargas GC turbine sort of resembles a G30, but Iím skeptical that this is what it actually is. At best itís a clipped G30 wheel, or a copy. I donít know. That is what I would be interested in finding out. Thatís back to my point about machining the turbine housing. If the Vargas GC reuses the OEM housing, the turbine A/R canít be changed. At best you can have a better flowing wheel. If Pure is machining the turbine housing using the OEM casting to change the A/R that would probably be more significant. Depends on how much better that 9 blade turbine flows. That, I also donít know. Maybe the Pure Stage 2 is better compared against the Vargas GC+. I just want to know what Pure is doing with their turbines.

Iím used to endless turbo options with the Subaru EJ257 platform. These options are another thing entirely. Some EFR options are great but the 9176 is pretty huge.

Looking back to just last August, itís amazing how much progress has been made with DME and fueling. Turbos now make more sense as an upgrade. Hope to see more options coming.
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      01-27-2020, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC_B5X View Post
Hell yeah, i'll give you updates on the Pure 800 as I go.
Thanks. Do you know if the Pure800 replaced the Stage 2 for B58? They don't show PS2 on their website any longer.
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      01-27-2020, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B50AteYourRide View Post
Does anyone specifically know the difference between the Pure Stage 2 and the 800? I thought the 800 was replacing the Stage 2. There is little information of a technical variety on their website. I was told that with Pure, the wheels were based on Mitsubishi designs, can anyone verify that? Forced Performance has had great results with Mitsubishi wheels.

Also, Pure requires a core where Vargas doesn’t. I get that Vargas has their own compressor housings, so in a drop in situation, a core isn’t necessary. I heard Pure machines the cores to accept their wheels. Where I’m curious is on the turbine side. If that’s true, it would be preferable to machining the wheel to fit the housing. With Pure, do you get new bearings and all?

What I really want to know is if Pure does any significant machining to the OEM turbine housing on either the Stage 2 or the 800? Theoretically, it is possible that they could machine the turbine housing. Theoretically, enough machining could be done to change the turbine A/R. Changing the turbine A/R would be a material difference in flow. I think with the B58, improvements on the turbine side will make a bigger difference than the compressor side from what I have heard.

A step better, for flow purposes, would be a Garrett G30 turbine or GTX 35 turbine, not that it has to be Garrett, but their sizes sort of are a standard. I would love to see a G30. The Vargas GC turbine sort of resembles a G30, but I’m skeptical that this is what it actually is. At best it’s a clipped G30 wheel, or a copy. I don’t know. That is what I would be interested in finding out. That’s back to my point about machining the turbine housing. If the Vargas GC reuses the OEM housing, the turbine A/R can’t be changed. At best you can have a better flowing wheel. If Pure is machining the turbine housing using the OEM casting to change the A/R that would probably be more significant. Depends on how much better that 9 blade turbine flows. That, I also don’t know. Maybe the Pure Stage 2 is better compared against the Vargas GC+. I just want to know what Pure is doing with their turbines.

I’m used to endless turbo options with the Subaru EJ257 platform. These options are another thing entirely. Some EFR options are great but the 9176 is pretty huge.

Looking back to just last August, it’s amazing how much progress has been made with DME and fueling. Turbos now make more sense as an upgrade. Hope to see more options coming.
I didn't see your comment when I just added mine. I don't know if they even still offer the Stage 2
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      01-27-2020, 03:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SĶpreme View Post
I didn't see your comment when I just added mine. I don't know if they even still offer the Stage 2
No problem, seems like the 800 is the new ďStage 2Ē. Still just as curious about what they do to the turbine housing.
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      01-27-2020, 03:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B50AteYourRide View Post
No problem, seems like the 800 is the new ďStage 2Ē. Still just as curious about what they do to the turbine housing.
I sent an email asking about whether it has replaced it and if so, what the differences are. When they respond I'll ask about the turbine housing.
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      01-27-2020, 04:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SĶpreme View Post
I sent an email asking about whether it has replaced it and if so, what the differences are. When they respond I'll ask about the turbine housing.
Thanks. Any technical info would be appreciated. I would add more of that in your thread. There are a variety of ways to go about supporting the added airflow, but knowing the airflow you are dealing with is more of an objective starting point.

I think our electronic wastegate contraption really complicates replacement options. Being able to reuse that really saves some headaches, but limits our options.
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      01-27-2020, 04:04 PM   #15
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I'd also like to include some comments under each option about how the turbo affects daily driveability, for example due to spool times. I understand that bigger turbos have longer spool times and may need to build more boost to launch effectively. That's fine for track days and drag strips, but it seems like this could have a negative impact on in-town hijinks. If you daily the car and want to have fun from stoplights, I'd prefer to not have to do a full brake-stand launch just to embarrass the Mustang in the next lane.

Any suggestions on how to describe or organize this? I see Pure lists a "3200 RPM spool" for their Pure 800 but I don't know that this is available for the other turbos in the list.
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      01-27-2020, 04:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B50AteYourRide View Post
Thanks. Any technical info would be appreciated. I would add more of that in your thread. There are a variety of ways to go about supporting the added airflow, but knowing the airflow you are dealing with is more of an objective starting point.

I think our electronic wastegate contraption really complicates replacement options. Being able to reuse that really saves some headaches, but limits our options.
Good point. I intended for that kind of info to go in the "Style/design" section but I edited that to be clearer.
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      01-27-2020, 04:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SĶpreme View Post
I see Pure lists a "3200 RPM spool" for their Pure 800 but I don't know that this is available for the other turbos in the list.
I definitely would not expect to see any sort of 20 psi boost spike at 3,200 RPM out of this turbo. Peak torque was at 5,500 RPM. That is going to have a huge difference in daily drivability. Probably more like ďbegins to spool at 3,200 RPMĒ. Autocross is out.

You can get used to it though. Guys were putting a GTX 35 on a 2.5 liter 8.2:1 compression 4 banger EJ257 and calling it streetable. Itís just a different animal.

They have to be doing something significant to that housing.
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      01-27-2020, 04:58 PM   #18
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I wish we had some data about the pure stage 1 turbo and just using pump fuel ( with upgraded HPFP) and not messing about with meth!
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      01-27-2020, 05:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackstrath View Post
I wish we had some data about the pure stage 1 turbo and just using pump fuel ( with upgraded HPFP) and not messing about with meth!
Based on what we've seen from Pure800 and VTT testing with stage 1 HPFPs I feel comfortable saying that you'd get at least as much power from the Pure Stage 1 with an upgraded HPFP as you would with a meth kit. That's why I listed max fueling as an upgraded HPFP and making ~500 WHP. Open to other opinions.

Do you have 93 octane available in your area?
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      01-27-2020, 05:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B50AteYourRide View Post
I definitely would not expect to see any sort of 20 psi boost spike at 3,200 RPM out of this turbo. Peak torque was at 5,500 RPM. That is going to have a huge difference in daily drivability. Probably more like ďbegins to spool at 3,200 RPMĒ. Autocross is out.

You can get used to it though. Guys were putting a GTX 35 on a 2.5 liter 8.2:1 compression 4 banger EJ257 and calling it streetable. Itís just a different animal.

They have to be doing something significant to that housing.
Their dyno graph agrees with you: https://www.pureturbos.com/store/bmw...8-pure800.html

Big torque spike around 3,200 RPM. Max torque looks to be around ~5,300 RPM.
I shift very early in my 6MT, like 2 - 2.5k RPM most times (I sound like a douche revving it out to 3k to shift with my exhaust setup) and this would for sure be detrimental to my mostly urban driving. Also not a fan of the binary on/off that a lot of big turbos present. Rip motor mounts lol.
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      01-27-2020, 05:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Newt View Post
Their dyno graph agrees with you: https://www.pureturbos.com/store/bmw...8-pure800.html

Big torque spike around 3,200 RPM. Max torque looks to be around ~5,300 RPM.
I shift very early in my 6MT, like 2 - 2.5k RPM most times (I sound like a douche revving it out to 3k to shift with my exhaust setup) and this would for sure be detrimental to my mostly urban driving. Also not a fan of the binary on/off that a lot of big turbos present. Rip motor mounts lol.
I imagine 3,200 RPM is where boost begins, and overshooting the target here is probably unlikely.

Still a long way to go before the torque curve looks like this:


"Streetable" is a relative term.
This is "Spool at 4,000 RPM" and it hit like a hammer.

At times, annoying.
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      01-27-2020, 09:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackstrath View Post
I wish we had some data about the pure stage 1 turbo and just using pump fuel ( with upgraded HPFP) and not messing about with meth!
You're not going to max out the stock HPFP on a Pure Stage 1 (or even the old stage 2) if you are just using straight pump fuel.
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