[edkato]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Weight has a lot to do with it, which the X3 is a lot heavier compared to the M3.

That it is! (Though I won't mention the full size spare and the 50 pound sand bag he had in the trunk...still no X3 however!)

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

XDrive with all seasons is working better for me than 2WD with snows ever did, by a wide margin. If I put snows on I could plow with it.

My experience is the complete opposite.

I had a 2008 Subaru Legacy GT with Continental DWS tires and I now drive the 335i RWD M Sport with Michelin X-Ice Xi3.

Based on my experience, RWD + snow tires > AWD + snow biased all seasons by a wide margin.

Originally Posted by Babo335

The BMW Xdrive system is one the most advance AWD system in the market and absolutely necessary in the East Coast more especifically if that is your DD. I'm hoping that BMW builds an xDrive M car then I would consider buying one.

See above. I'm on the East Coast. My experiences are primarily from NY all the way to MD. AWD isn't really necessary as long as you have snow tires. Also, the "most advanced" does not necessarily mean it's the best. If I had to go AWD, I would get the Audi S4 over the 335i xDrive.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

My experience is the complete opposite.

I had a 2008 Subaru Legacy GT with Continental DWS tires and I now drive the 335i RWD M Sport with Michelin X-Ice Xi3.

Based on my experience, RWD + snow tires > AWD + snow biased all seasons by a wide margin.



See above. I'm on the East Coast. My experiences are primarily from NY all the way to MD. AWD isn't really necessary as long as you have snow tires. Also, the "most advanced" does not necessarily mean it's the best. If I had to go AWD, I would get the Audi S4 over the 335i xDrive.

Oh man I had Conti DWS A/S on my Infiniti which was RWD, it was awful.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

My experience is the complete opposite.
I had a 2008 Subaru Legacy GT with Continental DWS tires and I now drive the 335i RWD M Sport with Michelin X-Ice Xi3.
Based on my experience, RWD + snow tires > AWD + snow biased all seasons by a wide margin.

Maybe Subaru isn't all it's cracked up to be.
My house is on a hill, with a long steep driveway. For the 35 years I've been here every 2WD car I've ever had with snows needed a running start to get up my driveway if there was more than an inch of snow, and if there was two inches or more I'd have to power it up with wheels spinning to get to the top. If I was parked midway and needed to move to the top I'd first have to go down to the bottom to get a running start.
My XDrive doesn't need a running start, never has any wheel spin. I can be parked halfway up the driveway with six inches of snow and drive it to the top from there with no effort at all. This is with the stock Conti SSR. I get on average at least ten storms a year of six inches or more, sometimes a lot more, so have a pretty substantial personal data base to draw upon.
As for being able to plow with it if I had snows, that's a judgement borne of my years of experience of actually plowing snow. Not that I would stick a plow on my Bimmer, but I have no doubt that if someone wanted to they could, ending up with The Ultimate Plowing Machine.

[300hp]

I believe it's now regarded as fact that AWD is superior in respect of traction when it's dry with both cars with the same type of tire. It should come as no surprise that the same advantages are maintained in the snow with both cars equipped with the same type of tire.

All I know is you don't need winters with awd. However rwd absolutely needs winters in the winter which makes sense given the superior traction offered by awd.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Oh man I had Conti DWS A/S on my Infiniti which was RWD, it was awful.

And that just goes to show how all seasons don't cut it because the DWS is known to be a more snow biased all season.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Maybe Subaru isn't all it's cracked up to be.
My house is on a hill, with a long steep driveway. For the 35 years I've been here every 2WD car I've ever had with snows needed a running start to get up my driveway if there was more than an inch of snow, and if there was two inches or more I'd have to power it up with wheels spinning to get to the top. If I was parked midway and needed to move to the top I'd first have to go down to the bottom to get a running start.
My XDrive doesn't need a running start, never has any wheel spin. I can be parked halfway up the driveway with six inches of snow and drive it to the top from there with no effort at all. This is with the stock Conti SSR. I get on average at least ten storms a year of six inches or more, sometimes a lot more, so have a pretty substantial personal data base to draw upon.
As for being able to plow with it if I had snows, that's a judgement borne of my years of experience of actually plowing snow. Not that I would stick a plow on my Bimmer, but I have no doubt that if someone wanted to they could, ending up with The Ultimate Plowing Machine.

Yes, in the scenario of deep snow > 8" and up a very steep grade, AWD is better. However, you never specified a scenario. My Subaru with AWD + snows would have done better than my RWD 335i with snows.

In nearly 99% of the winter driving that I do between NY and MD, RWD + snows give me way more control (safety) than my AWD + all seasons. Nothing under 8" of snow has given me much trouble.

If there's any more snow than that, I'll just use the Chevy Tahoe 4WD + Michelin X-Ice Xi2. Heavier, higher ground clearance, 4WD with locking rear diff, and studless snow tires... would probably be better than any car with AWD in deep snow.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I believe it's now regarded as fact that AWD is superior in respect of traction when it's dry with both cars with the same type of tire. It should come as no surprise that the same advantages are maintained in the snow with both cars equipped with the same type of tire.

All I know is you don't need winters with awd. However rwd absolutely needs winters in the winter which makes sense given the superior traction offered by awd.

AWD only offers better FORWARD traction. If your question is, do you need winters on AWD to simply move forward, that's debatable. My Subaru Legacy GT was fine moving forward with Continental DWS tires in deeper snow.

...if you're talking about strictly in the scenario above, then perhaps winters are not necessary with AWD.

But I have a 30 mile commute to work so I need to worry about more than just forward traction. I need to be able to slow down and execute emergency lane changes with control because of all the other people on the road. AWD won't help you do that, better tires for the conditions will.

The way I see it, why would I risk a ~$40,000 asset (and my family or my life) in the winter on all season tires when $800-900 for winter tires is a good insurance policy. The price of winter tires is insignificant compared to the cost of the asset that if you live in an area with sub 45F temperatures consistently and you depend on your vehicle everyday for commuting...it's really a no-brainer.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

XDrive with all seasons is working better for me than 2WD with snows ever did, by a wide margin. If I put snows on I could plow with it.

Thats weird. Every organization to test that ever got the exact opposite results. X drive doesnt help you stop so youre saying all seasons are better/safer in winter.........interesting.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Probability that this becomes an xDrive vs. sDrive + Winter Tires argument: High

BINGO!

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Thats weird. Every organization to test that ever got the exact opposite results. X drive doesnt help you stop so youre saying all seasons are better/safer in winter.........interesting.

He's talking about a very specific case where he needs to go up his long steep driveway in deep snow.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

And why would anyone in a snowy environment drive ANY car, regardless of drive type without the proper tires? If I am buying snow tires for my RWD/FWD why would I not also buy snow tires for my AWD? LMAO

Seems more effective to wrap snows on AWD.


OP, if I need 10" of clearance (you said 6" more LOL) then I am just staying home.

I agree.

But the point of my argument is that a set of snow tires will run you $800 at most (and these are for a SOLID set of snow tires, they can probably be had for $600 or less). xDrive costs $3,500 on the 328, which is significantly more expensive than a set of snow tires. Not to mention, xDrive is less efficient, a tad slower, and requires DHP if you want any semblance of sport sedan handling. You're now looking at several thousand dollars spent that may not be necessary.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

AWD only offers better FORWARD traction. If your question is, do you need winters on AWD to simply move forward, that's debatable. My Subaru Legacy GT was fine moving forward with Continental DWS tires in deeper snow.

...if you're talking about strictly in the scenario above, then perhaps winters are not necessary with AWD.

But I have a 30 mile commute to work so I need to worry about more than just forward traction. I need to be able to slow down and execute emergency lane changes with control because of all the other people on the road. AWD won't help you do that, better tires for the conditions will.

The way I see it, why would I risk a ~$40,000 asset (and my family or my life) in the winter on all season tires when $800-900 for winter tires is a good insurance policy. The price of winter tires is insignificant compared to the cost of the asset that if you live in an area with sub 45F temperatures consistently and you depend on your vehicle everyday for commuting...it's really a no-brainer.

I am talking about every scenario.

Ultimately rwd needs winter tires and you have done the only right thing to do for your family by getting those

[KGB_123_99]

It's possible that RWD + Snowtires > AWD + all-seasons. But AWD + Snowtires rules!

Up here in the north, AWD is a must. My previous E39 with snow tires was OK in the snow, but never inspired confidence when driving aggressively. Going up a hill sideways on packed snow was an entirely different experience altogether. I don't see myself going back to RWD as long as I'm living up here. Just my $0.02...

When I wake up to this and my driveway wasn't plowed yet, I'm happy to have AWD!

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

X drive doesnt help you stop so youre saying all seasons are better/safer in winter.........interesting.

If it's bad enough out there that I can't stop I stay home. Not because I'm concerned about my ability to stop, but because if I can't no one else can either.

[pr0gi]

many of you talk about rwd cars with snow tires are fine but thats true only when the roads are cleaned. What if there are snow/ice tracks which you often get or at least we get here in Bulgaria. As hard as the snowplows are cleaning it is hard to do it during snowfalls. Overtaking in such conditions is a nightmare. Your car goes constantly sideways and without xdrive or any 4x4 you cant really put power on the front to pull you. Yes, you can do it with a rwd car carefully but still it is risky. Here in Europe all-seasons is a dirty word even for a 4x4. Usually, I dont drive my 7 series in the winter but this time I had to since my pickup was out of order. From now on all my future cars will be 4x4.

Nobody can deny that xdrive is much better in every way. The argument about added weight and the increased consumption is a joke.

[edkato]

Well, good news is, we all like BMW cars! However, I will say, having driven/owned every 3 series (most with RWD), the RWD with winter tires isn't confidence inspiring on bad roads...I always found a reason not to drive when the weather wasn't good. Studs are nice, but not everyone can drive with studs depending on local/state laws. I don't ever feel that way with my xDrive (one with all seasons, one with winter tires), though I'd rather not risk driving unless I need to in bad conditions, regardless of what I am driving. (I will say, my neighbor does seem to have fun with his 911 4 in the snow.)

As we are getting another 6-10 inches of snow here this weekend (on top of our 12-14 on the ground) my BMW is staying in the garage.

[edkato]

Originally Posted by KGB_123_99

It's possible that RWD + Snowtires > AWD + all-seasons. But AWD + Snowtires rules!

Up here in the north, AWD is a must. My previous E39 with snow tires was OK in the snow, but never inspired confidence when driving aggressively. Going up a hill sideways on packed snow was an entirely different experience altogether. I don't see myself going back to RWD as long as I'm living up here. Just my $0.02...

When I wake up to this and my driveway wasn't plowed yet, I'm happy to have AWD!

THAT'S SOME SNOW! GOOD LUCK!

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by edkato

I will say, my neighbor does seem to have fun with his 911 4 in the snow.

It's only fun until someone gets hurt.

As we are getting another 6-10 inches of snow here this weekend (on top of our 12-14 on the ground) my BMW is staying in the garage.

Good advice in your neck of the woods. You know what we call 6-10 inches with 12-14 on the ground up here? November.
That brings up the issues of knowing how to drive in the snow, and knowing when it's not worth trying to. North of the Massachusetts border that's a given. Below the Mason-Dixon line it's a rarity. We had a 50 car pile up here a month ago. Most were AWD SUVs from New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts, heading north to ski.

[edkato]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

It's only fun until someone gets hurt.
Good advice in your neck of the woods. You know what we call 6-10 inches with 12-14 on the ground up here? November.
That brings up the issues of knowing how to drive in the snow, and knowing when it's not worth trying to. North of the Massachusetts border that's a given. Below the Mason-Dixon line it's a rarity. We had a 50 car pile up here a month ago. Most were AWD SUVs from New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts, heading north to ski.

Having grown up in Michigan and DC, I feel somewhat competent on winter roads...that being said, the crazy F250 and larger SUV drivers down here are dangerous (some of them, not all) and are the ones most often in the ditch. I prefer to just make due at home for a few days!

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by pr0gi

many of you talk about rwd cars with snow tires are fine but thats true only when the roads are cleaned. What if there are snow/ice tracks which you often get or at least we get here in Bulgaria. As hard as the snowplows are cleaning it is hard to do it during snowfalls. Overtaking in such conditions is a nightmare. Your car goes constantly sideways and without xdrive or any 4x4 you cant really put power on the front to pull you. Yes, you can do it with a rwd car carefully but still it is risky. Here in Europe all-seasons is a dirty word even for a 4x4. Usually, I dont drive my 7 series in the winter but this time I had to since my pickup was out of order. From now on all my future cars will be 4x4.

Nobody can deny that xdrive is much better in every way. The argument about added weight and the increased consumption is a joke.

If the roads aren't cleared, RWD vs AWD is less of an issue, and weight and road clearance are of more importance.

You're comparing a heavy SUV with high clearance and better tires against a low sedan. Obviously the SUV is the better choice. No one is saying RWD is better.

But for those of us who rarely see snowfall, or only few inches a year, xDrive adds nearly no value for the several thousand dollar price tag it adds.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

If the roads aren't cleared, RWD vs AWD is less of an issue, and weight and road clearance are of more importance.

You're comparing a heavy SUV with high clearance and better tires against a low sedan. Obviously the SUV is the better choice. No one is saying RWD is better.

But for those of us who rarely see snowfall, or only few inches a year, xDrive adds nearly no value for the several thousand dollar price tag it adds.

The value of xdrive always lies in the superior traction. Doesn't matter if roads are wet, dry or snow covered. On the same type of tire awd always gives you better traction compared to rwd.

Xdrive modes are only 120-150 lbs heavier than rwd models, that's about a tank of gas in weight. If you cast your eyes wider the 335i xdrive for example weighs less than an IS350 rwd. At 3710lbs the 335i xdrive is about average for the segment so the weight penalty is negligible.

However I understand it's not for everyone and the rwd + snow tires option should be good enough

[rikwynnpa]

The idea that a 4 wheel drive car that drives almost as well as an M3 in the dry (including mods of course) and as well as an X5 in the snow (with good snow tires installed) is indisputable. There are very few cars in the world that can do that. The argument that a RWD car with snows is sufficient is just silly. A modified X drive car with good snows all around is a much better 4 season solution if you live in the snow belt.

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Weight has a lot to do with it, which the X3 is a lot heavier compared to the M3.