[Mark1966]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


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https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






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Top Man Rukka, I find it difficult to understand how any born and bred Brit could see it any other way

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

I've often wondered how the men and women who fought in the World Wars - and in many cases sacrificed their lives - would feel about what Britain has become; can't help but think many would feel "did we really fight only to allow this to happen?". Problem is, though, I can't help but feel it's gone too far already and recovering the situation will be nigh on impossible; for example, even if we vote out (which I think is highly unlikely), will we show the door to all those Eastern Europeans who've been allowed in already? Doubt it somehow.

I do still worry about the economic turmoil that may follow a Brexit but as the weeks tick by I feel more and more inclined to follow my heart and vote out....

[ep22jg]

I'm still prepared to be convinced one way or the other.
Currently, my heart says 'Out' and my head says 'In'

I totally agree, both the campaigns have been pathetic.

I'm not sure I like the look of the direction the EU is going, but more worried about how quickly (or even if) we could recover from the financial crash if we leave.

I do think there is a feeling that all that is wrong with the UK, will miraculously disappear if we leave the EU .......
In reality, most of what is wrong with this country is the result of poor successive governments.
The same governments that will have control after the BREXIT
Why do we think they will suddenly get the hang of it now?

I agree that a net migration of 300K+ is too high, but nearly half of that is non EU.
Why has that not been sorted already ..... In reality, it won't be sorted after!!

I do like the idea of defining our own rules though!!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by ep22jg

I'm still prepared to be convinced one way or the other.
Currently, my heart says 'Out' and my head says 'In'

I totally agree, both the campaigns have been pathetic.

I'm not sure I like the look of the direction the EU is going, but more worried about how quickly (or even if) we could recover from the financial crash if we leave.

Pretty much mirrors my sentiments exactly!

[Steven1077]

I'm all for leaving, would you vote to join the EU if we weren’t in it?

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

I'm all for leaving, would you vote to join the EU if we weren’t in it?

No but sadly that's not the position we're starting from! I don't think there's any way we'd vote to join if we weren't in already but what will the economic fall-out be if we leave?

[isleaiw]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I do still worry about the economic turmoil that may follow a Brexit but as the weeks tick by I feel more and more inclined to follow my heart and vote out....

I am in the same boat - we will recover in time and I am prepared to take a chance that we are better as a result.

Hopefully a more radical outcome may encourage some of our politicians to be less safe when it comes to other policies too - why no one has suggested a full revamp of Income Tax and NI with a proper progressive set of rates I dont know but I would vote for that too (heart over head - I am sure I'd be a loser from it but at least it would feel sensible...)

[Steven1077]

Originally Posted by JNW1

No but sadly that's not the position we're starting from! I don't think there's any way we'd vote to join if we weren't in already but what will the economic fall-out be if we leave?

All I know is I can see things getting worse with even more countries joining the EU, I don't believe we will lose a lot of trade if we leave, they don’t buy from us now because they like us, we offer something they want, and I don't believe 99% of what Cameron is saying, I'm surprised he hasn't said we will be invaded by Martians if we leave

[TimMcC]

This piece by David Mitchell struck a chord with me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...david-mitchell

[insanecoder]

Unfortunately Brexit is like a football game with people on both sides with most not even understanding the true ramifications.. just rooting for their perceived favorite team.

Of course in this way.. obscure misinformation & emotional rah-rah.. Britain will eventually lose its soverignty .. I certainly hope not.. men have sacrificed much over the centuries to get rid of the despots who used to rule over us without our say..

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

This piece by David Mitchell struck a chord with me:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...david-mitchell

Yeah it did with me, I used to like David Mitchell.

Totally too much labour left wing rhetoric behind his words.

I would not trust any politician full stop over this.

In an ideal world it would be great, however they are in bed with unions, banks, business.

Also above all they would be looking at the impact on their shares, their investments and not the best for the country.

Also the current cock in charge of labour has completely avoid the issue and both labour and the cowards that are the SNP have said no debating allowed by their members, they all must say remain - which is utter bollox, as this should be a free open discussion within parliament by our elected MP's, not a three line whip - saying Remain.

If it was a vote in parliament it would be pointless, unions control one side, big business / financial sector the other.

In part due to labour and the SNP it's a shambles, further compounded by pathetic backstabbing within the Conservative party.

Once we vote to remain, then I can see us being open to strict measures from EU 'government', 'so you are voting yes to stay, right UK, you must now do....'

[Mark1966]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Yeah it did with me, I used to like David Mitchell.

Totally too much labour left wing rhetoric behind his words.

I would not trust any politician full stop over this.

In an ideal world it would be great, however they are in bed with unions, banks, business.

Also above all they would be looking at the impact on their shares, their investments and not the best for the country.

Also the current cock in charge of labour has completely avoid the issue and both labour and the cowards that are the SNP have said no debating allowed by their members, they all must say remain - which is utter bollox, as this should be a free open discussion within parliament by our elected MP's, not a three line whip - saying Remain.

If it was a vote in parliament it would be pointless, unions control one side, big business / financial sector the other.

In part due to labour and the SNP it's a shambles, further compounded by pathetic backstabbing within the Conservative party.

Once we vote to remain, then I can see us being open to strict measures from EU 'government', 'so you are voting yes to stay, right UK, you must now do....'

And that is a very good point which has crossed my mind recently, if we are not shit upon enough already by the rest of the wankers in the EU a vote to stay will put the tin hat on it

[Mark1966]

Latest ICM pol,l for what it is worth, has shown a 2% majority in favour of leaving

I am not convinced but I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope some sanity finally prevails in the British public

[gr4z]

Originally Posted by Mark1966

Latest ICM pol,l for what it is worth, has shown a 2% majority in favour of leaving

I am not convinced but I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope some sanity finally prevails in the British public

Let's hope that gap increases as we get closer.

[abc123]

Looking at the ICM poll, I was amazed at how pro-Brexit the C2 class was. MY guess is this the class who feels the migration issue most acutely. It's all very well the pro-globalisation elite thinking the EU is a wonderful thing but it is not them who bear the brunt of the globalisation.

[isleaiw]

Originally Posted by abc123

Looking at the ICM poll, I was amazed at how pro-Brexit the C2 class was. MY guess is this the class who feels the migration issue most acutely. It's all very well the pro-globalisation elite thinking the EU is a wonderful thing but it is not them who bear the brunt of the globalisation.

Glad to see my gender and age group are in the leave camp - would comment on my class but have no idea about such things.... I am just me!

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Brigand

....

Once we vote to remain, then I can see us being open to strict measures from EU 'government', 'so you are voting yes to stay, right UK, you must now do....'

Originally Posted by Mark1966

[/B]

And that is a very good point which has crossed my mind recently, if we are not shit upon enough already by the rest of the wankers in the EU a vote to stay will put the tin hat on it

I fear the damage is already done with us even having this vote. The message Europe gets is that half of the UK couldn't give a rats about Europe. Why should they take any notice of a country so 'anti'?
This is not a new issue either, the UK's joining of the European union has been a messy one right from the start. The UK will never get it's fair share of weight in the Euro as a result.

[Mark1966]

Anybody have an idea of what these class brackets stand for

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Mark1966

Anybody have an idea of what these class brackets stand for

Assume they relate to the type of occupation people hold in which case the broad definitions are:

AB = Senior management and professional
C1 = Junior management, administrative and clerical
C2 = Skilled manual
DE = Semi-skilled and unskilled manual

[Mark1966]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Assume they relate to the type of occupation people hold in which case the broad definitions are:

AB = Senior management and professional
C1 = Junior management, administrative and clerical
C2 = Skilled manual
DE = Semi-skilled and unskilled manual

Thanks for that

[maverick83]

So I am about to relocate to the UK on a Tier 2 - Skilled Visa. Several things make it not so easy to go to the UK from outside of the EU, IMO, I think the same rules must apply for Europeans as well when wanting to enter the UK. One of which is a permanent job offer of more than £36k and prove that you can speak, write and listen in English.

In South Africa we have a similar issue with other African countries - these people come over with no housing or job - and this turns into a whole lot of issues, xenophobia, crime more unemployment (currently 36%) and they don't pay tax...

I can see that this is a real problem for the UK if you have people relying on the system to support them without adding any tax to HMRC...

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by maverick83

So I am about to relocate to the UK on a Tier 2 - Skilled Visa. Several things make it not so easy to go to the UK from outside of the EU, IMO, I think the same rules must apply for Europeans as well when wanting to enter the UK. One of which is a permanent job offer of more than £36k and prove that you can speak, write and listen in English.

In South Africa we have a similar issue with other African countries - these people come over with no housing or job - and this turns into a whole lot of issues, xenophobia, crime more unemployment (currently 36%) and they don't pay tax...

I can see that this is a real problem for the UK if you have people relying on the system to support them without adding any tax to HMRC...

Except it's not a real problem in the uk as most EU immigrants come here to work (well over 90%), not for benefits. So they contribute significantly to our economy, but there are two major issues that come with them:

1) quite simply there are too many people on this little island and immigration adds to it, and this means affordable housing, health, infrastructure and public services are very stretched.

2) they take predominantly the lower paid jobs which keeps wages low at that level, hence the impact on the lower skilled workers of the U.K. In wage stagnation and decreasing standards of living

Issue 1 is not just an immigration issue though. For example, our island is overrun with elderly people that modern medicine can keep alive for many years after retirement. Walk in to any hospital and what you see is 80% elderly, not immigrants (except for the actual healthcare professionals!). Housing costs in this country aren't high because of just immigration, but our overly restrictive planning laws used by NIMBYs to block development, and also crazy low interest rates and government schemes which just stoke demand crazily high.

Issue 2 is one I have some sympathy for as its this people who also suffered during globalisation where the old industries that used to employ these people have been lost to cheap overseas countries - manufacturing, ship building, steel works, mining etc. So not only have we lost the semi skilled industry but it seems folk come over and then take what jobs are left. Not an easy problem for any government to solve, and if we exited the EU and kicked these people out I think we would be lucky to replace a lot of very good workers with just British ones.

I could argue quite easily for staying or going and against both too, and I think that in summation is why so many people have no idea which way to vote... Vote out and it may be better but also could be a disaster. Remain, and it will be better the mediocre devil you know.