[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Not work leaders in manufacturing?

What about aerospace? Second largest only to the US.

What about pharmaceuticals? I think you'll find we're world class.

What about arms? Second largest global exporter.

And leaving the EU is going to help us sell aerospace parts and arms to China and Australia?

World leading manufacturers won't suffer, they'll remain competitive either way.

Our country has a lot of small to medium sized manufacturers that depend on competitive European pricing. Small changes can mean significant lost business. The exchange rate has falsely propped them up for now, will that still be the same when we have actually exited?

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Alex340

And leaving the EU is going to help us sell aerospace parts and arms to China and Australia?

World leading manufacturers won't suffer, they'll remain competitive either way.

Our country has a lot of small to medium sized manufacturers that depend on competitive European pricing. Small changes can mean significant lost business. The exchange rate has falsely propped them up for now, will that still be the same when we have actually exited?

What manufacturing sector are you in?

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Lobb

You haven't understood me Terry.

The FTSE100 and 250 are different indicies. Together they are the FTSE350.

I agree with you on the FTSE 100, they are global companies. My point is that the FTSE 250 is trading 1000 points higher than twelve months ago. This reflects many investors confidence in the UK centric companies that make UK the 250.

The FT250 going from 17000 to 18000 is nothing like as good a performance as the FT100 had by going from 6000 to 7200 though.

That's about 6% v 20% increase.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Indeed.

This reflects the ability of the largest companies to earn in non sterling currency.

6% increase at a time of loose monetary policy and a devalued currency supporting overseas sales and earnings hardly seems particularly great.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Given the Armageddon forecast by the remain camp, I think it's a very good performance for UK centric companies

That all depends on your time horizon, but I think we can ignore all that crap and make a independent absolute judgement.

All I'm saying is that it's hardly great. Not bad, not great... which about sums up what's actually happened so far, rather than all the rubbish that's been talked about.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Indeed.

You need to look to the FTSE 250 for the more UK centric companies. It's trading 1000 points higher than it was twelve months ago. Investors are on balance optimistic about UK PLC.

The markets are all about now, not when we actually leave. They are just as likely to fall as the realities of Brexit become apparent.

Thinking more about the mechanics of how this will actually work for business in the uk (forgetting those who are successful in or out) is way more important.

Just looking at the markets and what bankers are doing, with little regard for anything else, is what got us into the last mess!

[Baz440i]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

It's been a while since this has been discussed, and since the old petrol v diesel debate has come around again I thought I'd see if we can get this one going...

Joking aside, it's quite a few months now since the decision was made, and things just don't seem to be moving along particularly well as I see it.

What's others take on this?

My own thoughts are that the Brexiteers all have differing viewpoints on what we're trying to get out of this, and hence no one has a clue what our objectives are. IDS has boiled it down to "To leave the EU"... glad we've got that sorted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38505532

Also, everyone seems to be an expert on what can and can't be done, and how to do it, but there seems to be little real desire on anyone's part to go out and do it.

I am bias as I did vote Remain, but I now that the decision has been made I am keen to see us maximise whatever the upsides are, nevertheless, the "Brexit team" aren't exactly filling me with a high degree of optimism in their competence, and their ability to alienate anyone in the civil service with the experience and relationships to get a good outcome isn't going to help either.

Most of the options that I hear about sound little like improvements to me, and I fear we are going to end up with no influence, but still paying the EU a load of money for market access, and still end up letting most folk come and go as they please. So in other words, a lot of effort for bugger all gained, and an awful lot lost.

'Don't seem to be moving along as I see it' and those that wanted to leave have no idea why other than just to leave the EU, so condescending, how upset you must be that Caneron and Osbournes bull about mass unemployment, house pirces crashing never came true, markets at a high must really hurt,,, yes we've yet to officially leave, doom mongers make me sick.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Quite enjoying myself since I joined this forum. Before I had my Audi I had a Jag and I stayed an active member of the forum.

All Brexit "discussions" were just me for the remain camp and EVERYONE else against me. I felt I had to contribute for the sake of balance, but I didn't half get some stick.

Probably shouldn't have been surprised, at least it proves the age split in the vote......Jaguar forum pro Brexit, shock horror.

I'm happy to see both sides of the discussion represented more equally here. Even if there is the odd contributor that doesn't understand democracy and thinks that all remain voters should just shut up now

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Baz440i

'Don't seem to be moving along as I see it' and those that wanted to leave have no idea why other than just to leave the EU, so condescending, how upset you must be that Caneron and Osbournes bull about mass unemployment, house pirces crashing never came true, markets at a high must really hurt,,, yes we've yet to officially leave, you doom mongers make me sick.

My own decision was a close one, economically I didn't understand how potentially losing our largest trading neighbours, or making us less competitive there was a great idea.

I also didn't trust our idiotic politicians to just transform themselves overnight into negotiating experts. They never have been before, why would that change.

I did however agree that that EU was a bureaucratic giant that was getting out of control. On balance I decided that perhaps we could try a little harder to help reform it. Electing the geniuses at UKIP as our largest representative party was hardly likely to be very productive.

My decision was a close one, I personally think that anyone whose decision wasn't a close one doesn't understand enough about it and shouldn't have been allowed to vote.

Those shouting bullying comments at others with differing opinions "make me sick".

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

And don't even start me on immigration. Killing the NHS is it?

I spent most of today in A and E with my heavily pregnant wife with a suspected DVT. She was referred there by her GP. Most of the other patients, and the corridors were lined with full beds, were all white Caucasian English people, most of them had wandered in with a headache, or in some cases the shakes from drug withdrawal. I saw a lovely gentleman sat on a trolley outside our room being given diazepam and being sent on his way.

The extremely polite (despite the occasional abuse) doctors that I saw today were very good at handling these people. That is despite the doctors being Polish. Bloody immigrants killing the NHS!

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Baz440i

'Don't seem to be moving along as I see it' and those that wanted to leave have no idea why other than just to leave the EU, so condescending, how upset you must be that Caneron and Osbournes bull about mass unemployment, house pirces crashing never came true, markets at a high must really hurt,,, yes we've yet to officially leave, you doom mongers make me sick.

Well matey, like you, I'm entitled to my opinion, but I don't make them as personal attacks on reasonable opinions. Why don't you play the argument and not the man? Most folk on this forum have been able to have a tough discussion without resorting to that.

I don't see it moving along, such that a consensus of what we'd like to achieve is coming together. I want it to work, and I think it can work, so I don't see how I'm being a doom monger?

I think we all know that it's going to be difficult, and saying so, asking how it can be done better is pretty normal behaviour in an open and transparent society.

As for the predictions, well they weren't mine so I don't feel the need to defend them, but in fairness, no one on either side that campaigned told much in the way of the truth, as most of it is horseshit and made up nonsense.

Whether we will see those things happen as a result of Brexit... no idea how anyone can comment on whether they will happen or not, as Brexit hasn't happened yet!

Much in the same way that the Brexit camp said we'd get all this extra money for the NHS, and we will get control over our borders.. none of that stuff has happened either.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Alex340

My own decision was a close one, economically I didn't understand how potentially losing our largest trading neighbours, or making us less competitive there was a great idea.

I did however agree that that EU was a bureaucratic giant that was getting out of control. On balance I decided that perhaps we could try a little harder to help reform it. Electing the geniuses at UKIP as our largest representative party was hardly likely to be very productive.

My decision was a close one, I personally think that anyone whose decision wasn't a close one doesn't understand enough about it and shouldn't have been allowed to vote.

Have to say this was very similar to how I felt and thought about it.

For a long time I was in the leave camp, for those exact reasons- the loss of control to what seems like a large and un-democratic mess.

I do hate much of what the EU has become.

It was only in the last week before the vote that I did some serious research and tried to get some independent information. The more I read, the more I realised how much I hadn't actually understood - about the legal situation, the work required to repeal and re-write many of our laws, and actually about just how much influence and clout we had in Europe.

I do actually think that the EU will fail in years to come, so I can see something in the argument of leaving the sinking ship before it happens, but if we'd left in those circumstances then we'd be in a better situation than most of the rest, due to our independent currency, however, leaving on our own like this feels like the lone rider striking out from the peleton. Yes, we may be stronger, but it's going to be a tough gig on our own at times. But then some of those guys do win!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Have to say this was very similar to how I felt and thought about it.

For a long time I was in the leave camp, for those exact reasons- the loss of control to what seems like a large and un-democratic mess.

I do hate much of what the EU has become.

It was only in the last week before the vote that I did some serious research and tried to get some independent information. The more I read, the more I realised how much I hadn't actually understood - about the legal situation, the work required to repeal and re-write many of our laws, and actually about just how much influence and clout we had in Europe.

I do actually think that the EU will fail in years to come, so I can see something in the argument of leaving the sinking ship before it happens, but if we'd left in those circumstances then we'd be in a better situation than most of the rest, due to our independent currency, however, leaving on our own like this feels like the lone rider striking out from the peleton. Yes, we may be stronger, but it's going to be a tough gig on our own at times. But then some of those guys do win!

I think it's ironic that people were having a go at Andy Murray for being pro Scottish Independance. Everyone in the UK said better off together.

Bill Clinton I think was quoted as saying roughly, Scotland vote to stay together, show a world torn apart by conflict that countries with differences can work together. So they did just that. And then afterwards we showed them just what a great decision that was.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Alex340

I think it's ironic that people were having a go at Andy Murray for being pro Scottish Independance. Everyone in the UK said better off together.

Bill Clinton I think was quoted as saying roughly, Scotland vote to stay together, show a world torn apart by conflict that countries with differences can work together. So they did just that. And then afterwards we showed them just what a great decision that was.

Ha! Well here's where we differ.... I think the scots voted for staying as per of the uk in large part due to financial self interest! Especially the elderly worried about the pensions and k owing the Barnett formula worked in their favour.

I actually have more respect in some way for the Brexit voters who have really voted for self control and independence, probably at the cost to their own finances. It may or may not be, but despite that risk they've gone for it.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Ha! Well here's where we differ.... I think the scots voted for staying as per of the uk in large part due to financial self interest! Especially the elderly worried about the pensions and k owing the Barnett formula worked in their favour.

I actually have more respect in some way for the Brexit voters who have really voted for self control and independence, probably at the cost to their own finances. It may or may not be, but despite that risk they've gone for it.

I don't really have a great opinion on Scottish independence because I didn't look into all the facts. It didn't affect me.

But, I do agree with their right to vote again if they want to. A fundamental part of what they chose to stay part of has gone.

I don't see what the fuss about additional votes is all about. A democratic vote tells you how the people feel, if that has changed, or has stayed the same, how can another vote be deemed unfair.

If a political party decided to hold a quicker general election there wouldn't be this much fuss about it. It would be seen as a fair way to judge public opinion.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Ps. This second vote comment is for Scottish Independance only, not Brexit. Something significant has changed for Scotland and they didn't vote for it. Even if they get the same result, the right to vote shouldn't be denied.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

For a long time I was in the leave camp, for those exact reasons- the loss of control to what seems like a large and un-democratic mess.

This is the thing though, you did some research and got to know the subject a little bit more, other don't do that and believe this is the case because they heard their mate down the pub say it is. £350m, bent bananas and shit toasters, its actually quite incredible what people believe.

The E.U. is by no means perfect and anyone who says it is should be sectioned, the very fact it pays Farage a wage for never turning up for work proves it, but the 3 big players in Europe are Germany, France and the UK. We're not some little servant being ordered what to do or having to bow down to our masters, we are/were the ones making the big decisions implementing our own ideas.

In fact speaking of Farage, its very telling that in the day following the referendum he applied for German citizenship to remain an E.U. resident. Turns out he may have tried to do it fraudulently too and is being investigated by the german authorities about it. Today he took a DAILY job at LBC, so he's even less likely to be doing what he is supposed to do.

This untangling shouldn't be underestimated, it's a huge job, and we've not even mentioned UK agriculture yet. There is *STILL* no overlap between what British govt would accept as a Brexit, and what the EU would. How can that ever come to a happy conclusion?

I also don't understand why people who support leaving so feverishly don't share concerns of other people's livelihoods. Cool, you're okay, your industry hasn't or might not be affected, but lots of others have already paid a price and are seeing a slowdown in business. Companies who run on tight margins and rely on currency exchange rates have already gone bust loosing jobs because of the massive fall in sterling. We've not even launched A50 yet.

But nope, "get over it snowflake, we won". Not a single fuck given about anyone else.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Next time I vote for anything I'll check I'm voting in accordance with your wishes first

This is what moderate people are up against, insane troll like comments such as this. No substance, no ideas. Nothing.

[Dyl]

Yes, you have without question proved I'm the hysterical one.

Not once have I told anyone how to vote. Do what you like. My point is the gloating and baiting of peoples genuine concerns. I don't get it, what's the point? You won, you are getting what you wanted.

[Edinburra]

Originally Posted by Alex340

Ps. This second vote comment is for Scottish Independance only, not Brexit. Something significant has changed for Scotland and they didn't vote for it. Even if they get the same result, the right to vote shouldn't be denied.

Please, in 2014 we in Scotland, voted to stay in the UK.

In 2016 we in Scotland, as part of the UK, were asked to vote on the UK leaving or staying in the EU. The democratic result of the people of the UK was to leave the EU. There was no separate question relating to parts of the Union.

The SNP would have you believe that they are on the side of all those who wish to remain in the EU whereas their only wish is Independence from the UK at any cost.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Incorrect.

You're the hysterical one. Suggesting that I have to vote in accordance with your wishes!

Fuck you! I'll vote whichever way I feel to be right. If you don't like democracy. Emigrate. I understand Iran is nice this time of year.

You are agressive and dismissive. But hey, like your vote, it's your decision to be that way.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Incorrect.

You're the hysterical one. Suggesting that I have to vote in accordance with your wishes!

Fuck you! I'll vote whichever way I feel to be right. If you don't like democracy. Emigrate. I understand Iran is nice this time of year.

No one is telling you how to vote. But he was suggesting it might be nice to understand and consider the consequences for others other than yourself. Not doing so at all is a sign of being a psychopath.