[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Beek

Depends on the Subaru, they are not all created equal.

Hmmm, they are. They all use symmetrical all wheel drive, meaning the car is always AWD drive all the time even when not needed. The only exception is BRZ.

It distributes equal power to all wheels as opposed to Xdrive where it sends powe to front wheels only when needed.

[Beek]

I will agree Subaru's have excellent AWD systems, I currently own one as well as an xDrive. I can't speak for current Subaru's but the 09's like I own had one system for Automatics and a different system for Manuals. The manual was a straight 50/50 split front to back and the automatics were variable. Both excellent but with slightly different strengths and weaknesses. Is xDrive their equal? Probably not but if it was only about the AWD system I'd be in an Audi.

[Slickz]

Getting new Xice put on my xDrive Friday, can't wait for more snow!

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Beek

I will agree Subaru's have excellent AWD systems, I currently own one as well as an xDrive. I can't speak for current Subaru's but the 09's like I own had one system for Automatics and a different system for Manuals. The manual was a straight 50/50 split front to back and the automatics were variable. Both excellent but with slightly different strengths and weaknesses. Is xDrive their equal? Probably not but if it was only about the AWD system I'd be in an Audi.

Yes new Subies have upgraded AWDs. Living where I am right now, I've owned many AWD vehicles in my time one that comes to mind is the 2010 4Runner with true low AWD which was excellent but had its limitations as far as speed is concerned. I've never owned an Audi so can't speak for the Quatro system I was merely comparing BMWs AWD system to Subaru's...

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I'm gonna be the first one to say that Xdrive with snow tires is good but not as good as Subaru AWD with same snow tires. Not even close...

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Hmmm, they are. They all use symmetrical all wheel drive, meaning the car is always AWD drive all the time even when not needed. The only exception is BRZ.

It distributes equal power to all wheels as opposed to Xdrive where it sends powe to front wheels only when needed.

Afraid that you are wrong. Subaru has 4-5 AWD systems, depending upon transmission and engine and model. Yes, they are all "symmetrical", but that's a Subaru marketing buzzword and has no actual meaning. See links:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/n...created-equal/
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/08/07/...lly-explained/

And xDrive normally has a 40:60 torque split f:r. And looking at the 1st reference, above, you *DO* realize that BMW's system is "symmetrical" in the same sense that Subaru uses it?

The BMW xDrive system works quite well, even compared to Audi Quattro and Subaru. Locking/LSD would make it better, but frankly, Subaru's intervention-happy traction control makes a BMW:Subaru contest pretty close. And snow tires are really the key: A xDrive BMW can drive circles around a Subaru on all-season tires - and most Subarus have all-seasons on, as their drivers believe they don't need snows.

[Ali Shiralian]

Wether it's a marketing ploy or not, as I mentioned in my first post, both my Subaru and BMW have identical Bridgestone blizzaks on and I drive them daily in snow. Yes BMW is very good in snow with Xdrive but Subaru is miles better. Without getting into the technical aspects of each system, this is a real life experience. As for a locking differential system, I did have a 4Runner with that system but it had its limitations with speed and turning radius. I do however believe that Subaru's traction control intervenes too much. The way around that is to use the X mode which is a type of crawl control and get yourself out of any situation..

[cncmastr]

I remember years ago when I had my E46 zhp coupe with blizzaks picking up my GF during state of emergency snow storms, passing all the Broncos, pickups, suburbans, and Jeeps. Winter tires make all the difference.

[wrickem]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I'm gonna be the first one to say that Xdrive with snow tires is good but not as good as Subaru AWD with same snow tires. Not even close...

Not as good in what way? Curves, straight, up hill, down hill, stopping, going through deep snow?

I am just curious how you assess that, I am not looking for an argument or for you to feel you have to defend your statement, I am simply curious why it's not even close to as good as the Subaru.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by lemonchicken

even rwd with good snow tires can be very effective. much more so than awd with all seasons

Generally in places where you don't need AWD.

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Generally in places where you don't need AWD.

+1

Rubber trumps drivetrain

[Blubaron79]

All because you're running actual snow tires. The SUVs are running all seasons..

[Araemo]

xDrive + snow tires is amazing.



I wasn't racing, I was in a large empty unplowed parking lot learning how the car behaves in the snow.

The answer? Amazingly good. In DTC or Sport+ mode, it accelerates great, but gets a bit wiggly in the rear (which was half the point of going out to a parking lot), and is good at going where you pointed the front wheels.

With DSC fully off, it's a TON of sideways fun.

What amazed me though was that it really didn't care about how deep the snow was. With all my previous cars (all FWD), once the snow started lifting the front end, you had to go slow and hope you don't get stuck, and accelerating was rough. With this car, it just moved. That's probably a combination of being much heavier, being rear-wheel biased AWD, etc.

As for AWD comparisons.. the problem with both Quattro and Subaru "symmetrical" AWD, is that the companies use the same brand names for very different physical systems. While I'm pretty sure all BMW xDrive systems are fundamentally the same (Older ones used a chain drive, newer ones use a gear drive, but it's fundamentally part-time AWD with only the rears always driven, and no center differential*.) Realistically, with good snow tires and all the electronics working correctly (which in some cars means you should manually switch to DTC/snow mode), almost all modern AWD systems are going to do fine in the snow.

*: It's really more of a transfer case. Clutchpacks either engage the front axle or disengage it, but it doesn't apply differential torque in proportion to rotational speed differences, and the fronts can never be driven faster than the rears, even if the fronts are on ice and the rears are gripping. AWD has a center differential, which is the main difference from 4WD.

[vanbmw]

My wife and I have had multiple AWD cars (Audi A4, Audi S4, Porsche 911C4, Infiniti G35 sedan and Subaru WRX), SUVS (Honda Pilot, Acura MDX and BMW X3) and a truck (F150). We have a place at Whistler mountain and we travel it plenty in winter conditions. I find the tires have the biggest impact. All of my AWD cars handle great in snow...911 had clearance issues with front end. I can't say the Subaru was any better then the Quattro or Infiniti systems.They all worked really well. AWD plus snow tires plus traction control all work really well.

Ironically the worst of the bunch was my 2005 F150. The tires that came on it looked aggressive. All seasons but a deep tread. That thing sucked in snow. It was all over the road. I could go but it was searching for grip...didn't turn or stop worth shit. It could get you moving in a straight line but then look out! didn't do anything else.

I get so many comments about driving my BMW to Whistler mountain in snowy conditions. People think I am an idiot for driving my BMW. Currently I have a RWD 335, previously had a RWD 135 both with snow tires. What gets lost on these people is these cars have a 50/50 weight distribution. What makes them handle well in the summer also helps in winter. Also my 335 is much lighter then all the full size SUV's I see driving the road to Whistler. My car is great in snow. I have to be mindful of the RWD on corner exits but it performs great.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by wrickem

Not as good in what way? Curves, straight, up hill, down hill, stopping, going through deep snow?

I am just curious how you assess that, I am not looking for an argument or for you to feel you have to defend your statement, I am simply curious why it's not even close to as good as the Subaru.

Well, let me put it this way. When I drive the bimmer with the same snow tires as the subie I feel the car tends to lose its tail a lot especially during start acceleration. I also find it tends to go sideways as I turn to go into my driveway. Now with subie, again under identical conditions and tires, non of this happens. I'm a big BMW fan and I wish this wasn't the case but I can't get the subie to lose its tail even if I try. Now I don't know if it's because of too much power in the bimmer or lack of in the subie but subie performs better and I feel more comfortable taking the subie out on a bad snowy day. I've also had a few RWD bimmers which performed excellent while having snow tires on so really don't see the benefit of Xdrive. To me it really is negligible...

[T4NZ4NIT3 335i]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Well, let me put it this way. When I drive the bimmer with the same snow tires as the subie I feel the car tends to lose its tail a lot especially during start acceleration. I also find it tends to go sideways as I turn to go into my driveway. Now with subie, again under identical conditions and tires, non of this happens. I'm a big BMW fan and I wish this wasn't the case but I can't get the subie to lose its tail even if I try. Now I don't know if it's because of too much power in the bimmer or lack of in the subie but subie performs better and I feel more comfortable taking the subie out on a bad snowy day. I've also had a few RWD bimmers which performed excellent while having snow tires on so really don't see the benefit of Xdrive. To me it really is negligible...

It can also come down to tire choice. Not sure which tires you are running,but studless ice and snow on 17s are grippier in deep snow than performance winters.

I dont know how you got your tail loose at such low speeds getting into the drive way..unless you like to make an entrance?.. I couldn't get my tail to come loose during acceleration no matter what, even on sport+ with DTC. I tested and only on Sport + and turning+hard accelerating did the tail come loose a little but thats not a safe thing to do regardless the awd you have, Even when the tail got a little loose on sport+ while turning, the front caches you in an instant.

[Ali Shiralian]

Bridgestone Blizzak WS80 on 18 inch rims for both cars...

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I can't get the subie to lose its tail even if I try. Now I don't know if it's because of too much power in the bimmer or lack of in the subie but subie performs better and I feel more comfortable taking the subie out on a bad snowy day.

Subaru is shocking good in nasty winter condition, I agree with you. As boring as it is to drive otherwise, especially with CVT, it's incredibly well planted with great winter tires.

I think that maybe amount of torque/power your BMW is putting down comparing to 2.5l engine from Subaru is the difference. That combined with likely wider tires on BMW could be reason for what you're describing. I personally find xDrive is pretty good as well, with great winter tires of course.

[Ali Shiralian]

I tend to agree with you on all accounts. I think one reason subie is so well planted is its boxer engine which is so low to the ground hence lowering its centre of gravity. I also agree on the CVT, not a big fan...

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I tend to agree with you on all accounts. I think one reason subie is so well planted is its boxer engine which is so low to the ground hence lowering its centre of gravity. I also agree on the CVT, not a big fan...

CVT - My wife made a decision, as it's her car after all, but let me just say this, if it can be avoided at all, never again, even if I only drive it few times a month.

I hope I don't live to regret saying this, but you have to be complete careless fool to lose it with Subaru (Outback in our case) equipped with winter tires. With all my cars, I always spend lots of time on deserted roads and parking lots, looking for limits of handling in less than ideal conditions. This combined with weekly ski trips, Nov-Apr. and I must say Subaru is simply fantastic winter car. As someone said earlier, I believe tires are the key, then comes specific drivetrain and car brand/model.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

CVT - My wife made a decision, as it's her car after all, but let me just say this, if it can be avoided at all, never again, even if I only drive it few times a month.

I hope I don't live to regret saying this, but you have to be complete careless fool to lose it with Subaru (Outback in our case) equipped with winter tires. With all my cars, I always spend lots of time on deserted roads and parking lots, looking for limits of handling in less than ideal conditions. This combined with weekly ski trips, Nov-Apr. and I must say Subaru is simply fantastic winter car. As someone said earlier, I believe tires are the key, then comes specific drivetrain and car brand/model.

We bought the subie strictly as a winter beater and to that day never owned a car or SUV equipped wit the dreaded CVT. It honestly feels lije I'm driving a golf cart when in the subie. Other than its tranny limitation and lack of a good look, you can't beat it in winter, of course proper winter tires are a must ...

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Well, let me put it this way. When I drive the bimmer with the same snow tires as the subie I feel the car tends to lose its tail a lot especially during start acceleration. I also find it tends to go sideways as I turn to go into my driveway. Now with subie, again under identical conditions and tires, non of this happens.

Remember, the rwd BMW (even with xDrive it's biased rear) has oversteer tendencies at it's heart, even though they've tuned it for a bit of understeer in normal conditions.

The Subaru is a FWD car converted to AWD - it has 60% on it's front wheels and drives much more like a FWD car than any BMW. (Actually, my Toyota pickup with nothing in the rear drives much like that - front has more traction due to the weight.)

Your observed behaviour is easily explainable in these terms.

[Jbrock22]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I'm gonna be the first one to say that Xdrive with snow tires is good but not as good as Subaru AWD with same snow tires. Not even close...

But it's still a Subaru.