[Logicoeur]

So about $5K USD for rotors that last about 3-5 sets of high quality iron rotors? Still doesn't work out to a bargain, even with not handing to warm them up to get 100% braking power.

I would love these bit they'd need to come down about 80% to make any sense. It's very rare for anyone to keep a car THAT long. Most users will shy away once they realize they have to change their braking behavior too.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Logicoeur

So about $5K USD for rotors that last about 3-5 sets of high quality iron rotors? Still doesn't work out to a bargain, even with not handing to warm them up to get 100% braking power.

I would love these bit they'd need to come down about 80% to make any sense. It's very rare for anyone to keep a car THAT long. Most users will shy away once they realize they have to change their braking behavior too.

Well, those iron rotors are Brembo BBK for us, so 3-5 x 1500$ installed = 4500$ to 7500$. Catch- for each one of those sets, we get suboptimal cold behavior, crappy braking if any run-out present (I assume most people here are savvy enough to prevent DTV), and HNV especially february to april. squeal in the cold. I would say my last big steel BBK gave me atrocious winter braking in 2017 and 2018. Keep in min cold salts and rust in my case. Since my 3D continuous experience exceeds any possible, best of summer-day Steel expectation, I must conclude that these things have been validated since installing them in august 2018. Would have-never dared try chopped CCBs, but aerospace grade 3D needle CCBs. Chopped CCBs never survived certification for large aircraft (imagine them needing a warmup to work properly at -30C while doing an emergency landing). 3D needle continuous did and can be regarded as displacing completely the older tech.

There is another point that cannot be overlooked. Due to BBKs having such odd behavior in the cold (the upper tier of the rotor does not even touch the pad due to contraction), and that portion rusts. Have seen BBK owners loose a set per winter! Now, BMW charges 300$ Canadian for a rotor resurfacing, per rotor. all those worries, or constant need to wash and rebed, are gone...

[Logicoeur]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Well, those iron rotors are Brembo BBK for us, so 3-5 x 1500$ installed = 4500$ to 7500$. Catch- for each one of those sets, we get suboptimal cold behavior, crappy braking if any run-out present (I assume most people here are savvy enough to prevent DTV), and HNV especially february to april. I would say my last big steel BBK gave me atrocious winter braking in 2017, 2018. Keep in min cold salts and rust in my case.

Since my experience exceeds any possible, best of summer-day Steel expectation, I must conclude that these things have been validated since installing them in august 2018. Am not running chopped CCBs, but aerospace grade 3D needle CCBs. Chopped CCBs never survived certification for large aircraft (imagine them needing a warmup to work properly at -30C while doing an emergency landing). 3D needle continuous did and took the industry by storm.

I understand the braking power is consistent regardless of temp, but you are also estimating really high on the steel rotor install. It can't be $1500. Pad install is four corners for ~$500. To remove the caliper and swap a rotor can't be more than an extra hour of work. Even at dealer rate thats an upper limit of $120/hr so $620 total. That's a discrepancy of $880 with your estimate which is a massive skew.

But again I'm debating the performance of there rotors year round compared to steel, just the pricing.

[Logicoeur]

Originally Posted by Musashi

I am in Canada. The US price is cheapest at "https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-350864-front-m-sport-dimpled-brake-rotors-340x30pair-f22-228-f30-328i328ix-f32-428i428ix-m-sport-s2nha/" - It is some 800$ Canadian for the rotors- maybe a bit more. 2-3 hours labour (160$) = 320 to 480, +800 =1300$ CAD, plus a good 13% tax.. 14604. that is fronts only.. all these prices Canadian.

Am also including two new sensors of course.

had friends trying to Stoptech variations, they rot pretty badly, especially the hats, and then get cracks around the cross drilled area.

Wow Ok that makes sense then. OE equivalent front rotors for the MP BBK can be had for ~250-300USD

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Musashi

I am curious what you, esteemed car enthusiasts, think about this..

It's not that surprising. Certain brands like Prempo make majority of their business off of their name. Their aftermarket is churning just as much as their OEM market, so they have no need to sacrifice on cost for either end. When people start calling car parts by your company's name just based on the look, you have that liberty. Now whether it's right or wrong, you can be the judge. But when a car comes stock with Pilstein suspsension or Precaro seats, that's pretty much a given.

Originally Posted by Logicoeur

So about $5K USD for rotors that last about 3-5 sets of high quality iron rotors? Still doesn't work out to a bargain, even with not handing to warm them up to get 100% braking power.

I would love these bit they'd need to come down about 80% to make any sense. It's very rare for anyone to keep a car THAT long. Most users will shy away once they realize they have to change their braking behavior too.

It'll never make sense. I've had steel rotors last over 80k. I'm all for weight savings and performance but for a street car it's useless. There are countless reviews online indicating the same thing.

For me, this is an upgrade to do at replacement time. And only if it's marginally more expensive than other aftermarket options. I just don't see it being a viable upgrade to change the characteristics of the car vs. upgraded pads.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by kern417

For me, this is an upgrade to do at replacement time. And only if it's marginally more expensive than other aftermarket options. I just don't see it being a viable upgrade to change the characteristics of the car vs. upgraded pads.

-17C 2 km grocery run. LB 49.1C, switching to the RB, 39.6C and cooling.

[Logicoeur]

Originally Posted by Musashi

As you know in Canada have been hit early by a very cold spell. I am including a 2 km winter, grocery run temp image, nothing fancy braking wise. By the time I got out of the car and snapped the shot, the left rotor indicated 49C. 10seconds later, the right side, it dropped to 39.6.. because of their much lower density, 3D CCB heat up fast, stay warm and up to 700C maintain the same CoF with semi-metallic pads. The point is that, -10C or lower, same 2 km grocery run, cold Steels rotors would be below -2 to 0C, occasionally around 2-5C if trying. Chopped CCBs would also still be cold. At -40C, I measured Brembo steel at -10C, so really a piss poor performance. If I drove a bit more spirited (assuming I had clear braking opportunities), 3D CCBs hover 90-100C. Even at -20C, -10C. therefore whatever perception people keep bringing up about CCBs, they are valid on old chopped CCBs, not 3D CCBs. These babies get warm as they absorb energy very fast and do not resonate at low temperature, so absorption is stellar.

And if nothing else makes sense, do not neglect the weight loss: 14kg or 31lbs less sprung weight than the 370mm steel Brembos (or 40lbs less vs Steel hat Stoptech). If that number does not describe enough the change in inertia, angular momentum, acceleration or deceleration, nothing else makes sense. Why on earth bother owning 300-500 Hp cars?

The weight savings sounds good. At just 5lbs a corner with light weight wheels there was a very noticable difference driving the car on stock tune. 31lbs would be monumental. However those prices are really the only hurdle for anyone to really use this on a daily car. Yes it makes sense for someone living in your climate where steel rotors are overpriced and they last far less than usual. For the other 90% of car owners, it doesn't not matter what stats you throw at them. No one is going to drive these cars to 300K Km.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Either case, my set is immune to these issues. And immune to the chopped CCB issues.

And like I said before, you are the only one with these issues. There are 1000s of canadians with BMWs. Why are you the only one that can't get 500kms out of the OEM rotors?

I have $600 tires. There are better tires, but they are $1000+ a set. It's not worth it to get $1000 tires when the primary improvement can be seen on the track, and my car is 100% street driven. Same goes for these brakes. You can't make 4x-5x the cost make sense when I'm not going to get 4x-5x the improvement on the street. Especially on such a low maintenance item.

More power to you. But you'll never sell me on this is a need for our cars.

[Musashi]

Farewell rust, dust and crappy -20C performance! Below, 0.6mm or rotor wear on 3000$ CAD worth of Brembo M Perf. Original set makes a good weight. The last set s still new, but a few months of storage starting in Januray, bedding and washing was insufficient driving the car in storage.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Musashi

too many words

I'm not reading all that. But a couple things:
1. "Sell me on something" is a play on words. It means convince me, not actual sell items.
2. 99% of those 4,000,000 hits are people asking about rust on the hubs or unaware that you always get surface rust on rotors after it rains. Show me all the canadians that can't get 500km out of rotors?
3. I well aware of Rays quality. I have the same set of ZE40. But I bought for $2k used, because it's worth it then. I'm not going to pay $4k+ for wheels that, again, are 99% used on the street. Not worth it. But getting the same performance for half the price was a deal I couldn't pass up.

I just saw the Carfection review of the RS Q8. It can be optioned with carbon disks, along with the rest of the RS line. Even american cars can be optioned with it. That doesn't make it worth it for the end user, and is why a lot of people switch to steel when it's time for replacement. If they fixed the price then it would be worth it. But people set track records on steel rotors multiple times a year. They are very capable.

[AndroidRobot]

Thank you for your very indepth write up here. I know many people, myself included, didn't know the full details about CCBs. I appreciate the information and time you've put in here. I wouldn't mind getting a set for my X5 but they're far from needed.

[harkes]

Where can these be bought? The Fusion website is hopeless - not even a contact email LOL

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by AndroidRobot

Thank you for your very indepth write up here. I know many people, myself included, didn't know the full details about CCBs. I appreciate the information and time you've put in here. I wouldn't mind getting a set for my X5 but they're far from needed.

Yes, X5 in Texas would not make sense on an SUV. You are welcome. If you read this forum learning that- A- there are two types of CCBs (resin vs 3d preform matrix) B- Resin now actually costs 400$ per rotor with profit for the maker and C- Resin CCBs oxidize internally whereas 3D matrix wears by friction- this is more knowledge than I knew three years ago.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by harkes

Where can these be bought? The Fusion website is hopeless - not even a contact email LOL

Umm, Harkes, are you kidding me lol? It is on their website. Email info@fusionbrakes.com or call (949) 423-6167

But umm, they will BS you around- how about buying their CCB from their disc manufacturer directly? I will PM you that info to get a set..

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Musashi

You are discussing things that are nowhere near your personal experience. It is the equivalent of me speculating on the best endurance compound at LeMans, having neither lived nor raced there. A 20" 405 M Performance BMW set is 5400$ CAD with tires, or some 1200$ a wheel- a far worse proposition. In my world- the Canadian world- our winters, our spring potholes, and- way worse- in Quebec, that is 1-2 such wheels per season. How or why do you think I sold mine so easily to Montreal residents living 200 kms away?

If 405 bends rather easily, and can be nastily chipped by the low profile tires, a cheaper formed forged JUST CRACKS, taking both wheel and tire with it. Again, common occurrence here. Unfortunately for us and fortunately for YOU, your market, the US, is half priced versus ours even with USD-CAD conversion. Owning BMWs on Canadian roads is VERY expensive. Period. A fact. The smart way to do it, for example, is careful route selection, and route avoidance. Some trips, I metro or bus my way in knowing that construction and cut asphalt with derelict holes does wheels in.

To the above add 1400$ for damaged struts. It never is just the wheel, but also suspension parts. If still doubting, contact other Canadian owners and will confirm everything that I wrote.

Show me one other thread, on any vehicle forum, where someone claims they can't get 500km out of steel brakes in Canada. I'll wait.

For reference, here's how a brake rust thread goes in the bimmerpost Canada subforum. Seems like everyone agrees with me. Drive it, and the surface rust comes off. Happens literally everywhere when it rains, snows, or even goes through a car wash. No special conditions in Canada causes this.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1213470

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Musashi

you are kidding right? like KIDDING? You: " Drive it, and the surface rust comes off" Lesson: YOU SHOULD READ a post before replying and missing the argument.

I store my vehicle in a garage with the parking brake on. Guess what? The brakes can seize. It's a storage problem, regardless of the condition. Just like the possibility of flat spotting tires, fuel going bad, etc.

And the articles you posted are a court ruling, that was an appeal to the original ruling that it was not ruled in BMW's favor. It has no scientific evidence, and they are only paying to store cars for inspection. It says nothing about cars actually being damaged. BMW is literally saying they don't know if vehicles are damaged, so they want to scrap all of them and Autosport inspected several with no issue found.

Maybe you should try reading what you post lol. You claim that people are losing their brakes every winter, but no one here is complaining about it but you. Sounds like operator error.

So again, please post one thread on any vehicle forum where people are losing their brakes left and right in canada. We're waiting.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by harkes

Hi

I have spoken with CMCMAT that is making CCB and got some prices. Mind you this was offered to me as a "dealer-price". I suspect because I live in China, so they might not be the same where you buy them.

Package consisting of: Rotors and pads for a 335i (370x30mm)

Front: 25600RMB = 3653USD
Rear: 23500RMB = 3353USD

Replacement pads: 1800RMB = 257USD

CMCMAT claims 300000km life for street driving and they dont wear nearly as fast going to the track. A normal steel rotor can do ~80000km of normal street driving but less than 5000km on the track. Now, there are hundreds of variables but a CCB will cope with this way better.

So ~$7,000 USD for someone "more local" in China. That's about $2k less than I was quoted (plus I'd also have to pay import duties on them). The basically $10,000 USD cost really made me pause and think if that was worth the heavy price increase over my existing steel rotor useage, and inconvenience of swapping between street/track pads. It makes my Stoptech ARK rotor replacements look cheap by comparison.

One other thing that scared me away was the $400/axle pad replacement cost and their only 30,000km / 18,600mi expected lifetime with street only driving. That won't even last me a whole year! My street (EBC Reds) and track pads (PFC 08) setup cost me $703, less than $800, and is lasting me quite a bit more than a year. I'll admit it's possible that the service lifetime is conservative, but I'm not willing to be the beta tester and find out for $10,800 (rotors, plus replacement set of pads when the originals wear out).

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Interesting, what type of pads/compound/rotors are you referring to, a Pagid RSC with resin CCBs? Sometimes people mismatch pads with rotors, and forums abound of people ruining a rotor set in one track day by adding a pad of their choice that was never designed nor tested for the specific car.

Stoptech, judder... They last one winter here, they pit internally and between the drill holes and become piss poor after 4-5 months of winter driving. They also groove badly with minute salt and grime. In the scale of quality, Brembo Gt, then Brembo non Gt, then Zimmerman, then 40 lbs of crap and Stoptech is below that- where I live. The difference in steel metallurgy and iron content between Brembo and Stoptech is significant.

We had two nice days at 2-3C, so I was able to drive 100 kms on twisty empty country roads lots of fun. According to the measurements, since Aug 2018, 20,000km, ten track laps, 0.7mm of pad life gone (some 5mm to half life); service computer says 80,000 kms remaining. I expected more wear due to winter driving, debris and salt, and extreme cold wearing faster any colder rotors. It is getting boring having no service other than tires and oil; and spare parts around but no reason to mount them. Fortunately in 20-30k i have an excuse to do a half life replacement.

I have Stoptech ARK rotors, which are far higher quality and different metallurgy from their more conventional/normal line of parts. The revised vane arrangement significantly helps keep the rotor cool compared to OE rotors. In the rear I have Pagid M-Perf rotors, which are wearing faster than the ARKs. The pads that CMCMAT recommended to me with the 30,000km lifetime were their HPRT02 compound.

I've had the front ARK and rear Pagid rotors in my vehicle for 31,700mi, including 13 track days and the ARKs haven't even worn half way yet (a bit above 29mm thick). Street pads are EBC Redstuff ceramic pads and track pads have been a mix of Pagid RSL 29 and PFC 08, both endurance compounds. I haven't had any issues mixing those compounds together on the same rotors.

Since I don't have any climate-related wear considerations, it's not really worth the risk for me to spend so much money on the CCBs when there's so little actual user data that's applicable to me. $10k is a lot for me to spend just to "find out" with no financial ROI.

The CBS brake wear counter isn't an accurate way to gauge pad/rotor lifetime. Once the first contact is ground down there's a modeled countdown, and when the second contact is worn down it can change to a more urgent countdown. It's not continuously measuring the wear down.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I have Stoptech ARK rotors, which are far higher quality and different metallurgy from their more conventional/normal line of parts. The revised vane arrangement significantly helps keep the rotor cool compared to OE rotors. In the rear I have Pagid M-Perf rotors, which are wearing faster than the ARKs. The pads that CMCMAT recommended to me with the 30,000km lifetime were their HPRT02 compound.

I've had the front ARK and rear Pagid rotors in my vehicle for 31,700mi, including 13 track days and the ARKs haven't even worn half way yet (a bit above 29mm thick). Street pads are EBC Redstuff ceramic pads and track pads have been a mix of Pagid RSL 29 and PFC 08, both endurance compounds. I haven't had any issues mixing those compounds together on the same rotors.

Since I don't have any climate-related wear considerations, it's not really worth the risk for me to spend so much money on the CCBs when there's so little actual user data that's applicable to me. $10k is a lot for me to spend just to "find out" with no financial ROI.

The CBS brake wear counter isn't an accurate way to gauge pad/rotor lifetime. Once the first contact is ground down there's a modeled countdown, and when the second contact is worn down it can change to a more urgent countdown. It's not continuously measuring the wear down.

People tried the BBK StopTech, and it was pretty bad wintertime. The difference with Brembo is staggering. More iron content in Stoptech, and it pits badly even on their BBK. Mind you 10-20% salinity here. Ref CCBs, I love the massive weight reduction as the cherry on the cake on top of all the other advantages. I only got the fronts, the rears still original Brembos, rears never get the salt that the fronts wheels do. Pads last 140-160,000 kms on the rears. By 10k you mean full front and rears no doubt. I gave myself 2 yrs to decide if adding rear CCBs make sense, provided the CoF stays high. Of course it would be a weight reduction primary metric, aesthetics too, the fronts already solved all the issues mentioned previously.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

The CBS brake wear counter isn't an accurate way to gauge pad/rotor lifetime. Once the first contact is ground down there's a modeled countdown, and when the second contact is worn down it can change to a more urgent countdown. It's not continuously measuring the wear down.

YES, very much so! I never wanted to get too technical, but in Canada, the counter underestimates badly due to so many months of -20C, -30C, -40C!!! We are talking major shrinkage from calipers, pad backing. Rotors alone will shrink some 6-8 um for 30mm steel. The CBS thinks that we just lost x6 more steel than normal. My counter showed 100,000 kms before our first -20C a few days ago. In the end I take a digital caliper and confirm hands on. Summertime, the number stay flat for a long time. For the rears, it keeps saying 140,000kms be it that they are not yet half life, all i do is change the rear pads every 100,000 kms. Point is, whatever semi metallic compound am using, lost 0.45mm, rotors have zero measurable wear that i can asses with my digital caliper.

[Orion4]

Will SOMEONE shoot this thread!!!!!!!

[jh_f30]

Originally Posted by Orion4

Will SOMEONE shoot this thread!!!!!!!

Yes! Thank you! I think if OP were better able to summarize his points and not make each post a defensive novel, there might be some better discourse. I got tired of reading repeated points over and over and was surprised at how many scrolls it took to pass through one post.

Short, sweet, to the point. Also, people are entitled to disagree with you. You aren't doing yourself any favors by getting all defensive. We get you wanna sell some SUPER EXPENSIVE brakes. Some people might want em, others won't. Those that don't aren't WRONG.

Happy holidays!