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      10-16-2013, 07:13 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Wow, very nice.

I really had no idea that Audi sold so few A4s in the US as compared to the 3 Series and C Class. They don't even make the top 10 here, and are outsold even by the 5 Series and E Class.
I was also surprised by Audi's numbers compared to the 3/4 series. Also, while the Cadillac ATS is not shown in this report, other sources show the ATS as having YTD sales of 28,207.

It seems as though BMW has not "lost its way" at all, if in fact their job is to sell cars.

A lot of comments on this thread about including/not including the sedan and coupes in the same sales figures. From my perspective, the real take away is that BMW 3/4 is kicking its competitions' collective behinds.
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      10-16-2013, 07:35 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
A lot of comments on this thread about including/not including the sedan and coupes in the same sales figures. From my perspective, the real take away is that BMW 3/4 is kicking its competitions' collective behinds.
Agree wholeheartedly.

It would be nice to see how the 5/6 compare to E class too. That model lineup includes the coupe and convertible even though, just as it was when they were called the CLK, they are not mere two door versions of the sedan, but separate models. I suspect it would be very close. Of course, that would mean including 6 GC in the figures, so then we rightfully must include CLS figures in there too I suppose. Slippery slope. Not to mention its 5 GT vs. E estate. As more and more new models and new model variations come onto the scene, normalization of the numbers only gets tougher.

It's not a new thing though. Just look at full size pickup sales numbers where Ford has been the winner for decades (if things haven't changed recently), but only because the nearly identical Silverado and Sierra are counted separately.
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      10-16-2013, 07:50 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
A lot of comments on this thread about including/not including the sedan and coupes in the same sales figures. From my perspective, the real take away is that BMW 3/4 is kicking its competitions' collective behinds.
Agree wholeheartedly.

It would be nice to see how the 5/6 compare to E class too. That model lineup includes the coupe and convertible even though, just as it was when they were called the CLK, they are not mere two door versions of the sedan, but separate models. I suspect it would be very close. Of course, that would mean including 6 GC in the figures, so then we rightfully must include CLS figures in there too I suppose. Slippery slope. Not to mention its 5 GT vs. E estate. As more and more new models and new model variations come onto the scene, normalization of the numbers only gets tougher.

It's not a new thing though. Just look at full size pickup sales numbers where Ford has been the winner for decades (if things haven't changed recently), but only because the nearly identical Silverado and Sierra are counted separately.
If you look at the way BMW reports it's sales, it clearly distinguishes between the 5 and the 6. Mercedes does not do that, they report sales as E Class sales, no coupe/sedan sales. I suspect the list is created using the line items reported by each manufacturer. So the 6 did not make the cut, about 7k sold YTD. Even if we were to combine the 5 and 6 sales it wouldn't matter as far as the E and 5/6 sales go. The E would still be above the combined sales numbers of these two.
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      10-16-2013, 08:38 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
If you look at the way BMW reports it's sales, it clearly distinguishes between the 5 and the 6.
Indeed.

Quote:
I suspect the list is created using the line items reported by each manufacturer.
Quite possible. But even if so, that doesn't mean that is the most effective way of reporting the figures.

Quote:
So the 6 did not make the cut,
No surprise at all there.

Quote:
about 7k sold YTD. Even if we were to combine the 5 and 6 sales it wouldn't matter as far as the E and 5/6 sales go. The E would still be above the combined sales numbers of these two.
True, but it makes the race a lot closer doesn't it?

Now, suppose combining the 5 and 6 had changed things. Do you believe this source would have mentioned it? Probably not, right?
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      10-16-2013, 08:53 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
If you look at the way BMW reports it's sales, it clearly distinguishes between the 5 and the 6.
Indeed.

Quote:
I suspect the list is created using the line items reported by each manufacturer.
Quite possible. But even if so, that doesn't mean that is the most effective way of reporting the figures.

Quote:
So the 6 did not make the cut,
No surprise at all there.

Quote:
about 7k sold YTD. Even if we were to combine the 5 and 6 sales it wouldn't matter as far as the E and 5/6 sales go. The E would still be above the combined sales numbers of these two.
True, but it makes the race a lot closer doesn't it?

Now, suppose combining the 5 and 6 had changed things. Do you believe this source would have mentioned it? Probably not, right?

I think you have to take it from their perspective (data collectors). All they do is look at the data as reported by the mfrs and compile these lists. I can't fault them for what appears to be inconsistencies if this is how the data is reported in the first place. Maybe next time BMW will combine the 5/6 but I think they are comfortable with where the 5 and 6 stand from a marketing perspective.
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      10-16-2013, 02:51 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I think you have to take it from their perspective (data collectors). All they do is look at the data as reported by the mfrs and compile these lists. I can't fault them for what appears to be inconsistencies if this is how the data is reported in the first place. Maybe next time BMW will combine the 5/6 but I think they are comfortable with where the 5 and 6 stand from a marketing perspective.
And in the meantime, the BMW 3/4 is kicking its competitions' collective behinds. All of the complaints about wind noise, ASS, numb steering, cheap looking/feeling interiors, m badges where they are not supposed to be, 4-banger engine note, and (what have I missed?), do not seem to have negatively affected sales figures. I'm not saying the 3 is perfect. These complaints have some merit. However, on the whole, the 3 series is an outstanding car and car buyers are voting with their wallets.
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      10-16-2013, 03:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mntbiker View Post
Yea, me too. Shocking that Audi is not up there.. I see SO MANY of them.
BMW NA is much larger company hence have a much larger dealer network. You must live in a big city so you see many around but when I drive through the USA and some of the smaller towns you will never see one as there simply aren't any dealerships around. I know some guys on the Audi forums who have to drive over 200miles just to get to a dealership.

The above combined with much more aggressive BMW Financial Lease rates make it much more attractive for people who want to lease a luxury car. That said looking at the big cities and Audi's sales numbers you will see that Audi is gaining momentum in North America. Don't forget the A4 is at end of cycle and the new A4 will be out by the end of next year.

The two points make a difference when comparing Audi sales worldwide and US sales. That said BMW is definitely on a upward sales this year due to the launch of the new vehicles. Audi and MB will be launching their new cars in the next two years. The Germans never launch the competitive cars in the same year wonder if this is all co-ordinated.

Last edited by ToyotaBMW; 10-16-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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      10-17-2013, 12:27 AM   #52
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Anybody have a chart to see how many 328d's have been sold compared to 320's and 328i's?
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      10-17-2013, 12:38 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I think you have to take it from their perspective (data collectors). All they do is look at the data as reported by the mfrs and compile these lists. I can't fault them for what appears to be inconsistencies if this is how the data is reported in the first place.
That's a reasonable position. For me the discussion was more about the academics to begin with - not pointing fingers. That being said, if we just take what we're handed without thought then we might not be getting the most accurate information. I detected an objectionable tone from some (not you) when questions were raised about the reporting specifics. That's a poor attitude in my opinion.

Quote:
Maybe next time BMW will combine the 5/6 but I think they are comfortable with where the 5 and 6 stand from a marketing perspective.
I think they combine as many models' sales figures as they can get away with without raising too many eyebrows. I still think it would be interesting to know the how and why behind how the models are broken down. I suppose it is part self-regulated and partly traceable back to legal nuance. Of course BMW is not publicly traded in the US so the latter may not apply.
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      10-17-2013, 08:55 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I think you have to take it from their perspective (data collectors). All they do is look at the data as reported by the mfrs and compile these lists. I can't fault them for what appears to be inconsistencies if this is how the data is reported in the first place.
That's a reasonable position. For me the discussion was more about the academics to begin with - not pointing fingers. That being said, if we just take what we're handed without thought then we might not be getting the most accurate information. I detected an objectionable tone from some (not you) when questions were raised about the reporting specifics. That's a poor attitude in my opinion.

Quote:
Maybe next time BMW will combine the 5/6 but I think they are comfortable with where the 5 and 6 stand from a marketing perspective.
I think they combine as many models' sales figures as they can get away with without raising too many eyebrows. I still think it would be interesting to know the how and why behind how the models are broken down. I suppose it is part self-regulated and partly traceable back to legal nuance. Of course BMW is not publicly traded in the US so the latter may not apply.
Agreed they should at least be more transparent in how the numbers are determined.

It still does not excuse BMW from selling fewer 5s than the Eclass, lol. The E class handling dynamics leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the E550 is better but the E350 I drove reminded me of a Lexus ES350!!!!
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      10-17-2013, 12:46 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Agreed they should at least be more transparent in how the numbers are determined.

It still does not excuse BMW from selling fewer 5s than the Eclass, lol. The E class handling dynamics leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the E550 is better but the E350 I drove reminded me of a Lexus ES350!!!!

6 series sales ytd - 7,034
5 series sales ytd - 38,681


A total of 45,715


You have to take into account though that a 6 series coupe starts at $75,400 as opposed to the e-class coupe which starts at $52,200

Those numbers tell me that the E-Class coupe outsells the 6 series, but that the 5 series outsells the E-Class.
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      10-17-2013, 02:08 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ep_83
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Agreed they should at least be more transparent in how the numbers are determined.

It still does not excuse BMW from selling fewer 5s than the Eclass, lol. The E class handling dynamics leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the E550 is better but the E350 I drove reminded me of a Lexus ES350!!!!

6 series sales ytd - 7,034
5 series sales ytd - 38,681


A total of 45,715


You have to take into account though that a 6 series coupe starts at $75,400 as opposed to the e-class coupe which starts at $52,200

Those numbers tell me that the E-Class coupe outsells the 6 series, but that the 5 series outsells the E-Class.
You should have provided this information a while back. It shades a lot more color on why the 5 & 6 are possibly not combined, the difference in the starting price is almost 15k (ignoring engine size). We were looking for some plausible theory that would explain why the two were split.
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      10-22-2013, 12:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
You should have provided this information a while back. It shades a lot more color on why the 5 & 6 are possibly not combined, the difference in the starting price is almost 15k (ignoring engine size). We were looking for some plausible theory that would explain why the two were split.
But if you put yourself in the consumer's shoes (well, you're out on the market for that car segment) ---

Could you really see yourself cross shopping a 6- series with an E- coupe? Most likely not. There is way more distinction between 5- and 6- series than 3- to 4- series.

Even terms of lookwise, E- sedan and E- coupe essentially look the same (i.e. if my wife saw both cars, she would say "oh hey both are E- class). But if she was to be put on the same test with 5- and 6- series, she would say that they are two different cars (or at least lineages).

So the numbers in the OP took some assumptions, but not an unreasonable one at that. For the sake of statistics and the consumer wants, combining 3- and 4- series made total sense to me, as were the entire C- class lineup. A few months ago, as we all know, we would have bunched up 3- series sedans and coupes and have absolutely no problem with that.

Now, if MB came out with a D- series... They have A, B, C and E after all.
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      10-22-2013, 12:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
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But if you put yourself in the consumer's shoes (well, you're out on the market for that car segment) ---

Could you really see yourself cross shopping a 6- series with an E- coupe?
You raised fair points. However I felt strongly that I should answer this question. No I would not shop for an E class, boring

I liked your example of how your wife would not know the difference between the E coupe and E sedan, I can completely relate to that. I have a wife with a similar appreciation for cars
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      10-22-2013, 05:11 PM   #59
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not sure I've ever followed a more pointless thread.....sorry....carry on
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      10-24-2013, 09:10 AM   #60
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