[JustChris]

Will Super Capacitors be a realistic option?

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Will Super Capacitors be a realistic option?

The only battery tech that's on the horizon is graphene, but that really is still lab tech. People forget Sony introduced the worlds first Lithium-ion cell in the 1990s, its taken nearly 20 years for production process to mature and even now cell production is costly and hard to upscale.

It appears cell production is actually a real constraint at present, I suspect as quickly as cell production can scale demand eats up the supply. After all EVs still only make up less than 1 in 10 new cars sold, so as market demands shifts production will have to ramp up many fold.

The tech really isn't an issue at all for most families, I suspect nor is the cost given how much cars are in general now, but mind sets are hard to change.

I still occasionally quite unbelievable the same tech in phones/laptops is whats shifting a 2ton+ SUV at acceleration rates my old 335i would struggle to keep up when rolling.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

The EV are likely to be more costly than their equal non ice counterparts esp SUV's you'll of course save in some fuel costs but that can be seen as pennywise pound foolish.

Actually I would go as far to say as spending ££££ on any new car regardless of powertrain is financially foolish full stop, but none of us would be on this forum if we really cared that much about the financial costs of car ownership

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Grant_7

I can only speak from my own experience, but my Model 3 drives much better than my previous 340i. I prefer its faster steering, it stays much flatter in corners, it weighs less and feels it. Also it's powertrain knocks the 340i engine & gearbox for six in terms of refinement and response. It doesn't ride quite as well however.

is that the g series 340i v tesla model 3(which I believe was releasedin 2019 in UK?

[Witney]

Originally Posted by Bryans69

I don't see PHEVs having any real future, as they seem to be the worst of both worlds. I like the idea of them in theory, but in practice it's a lot of weight and complexity to improve local air quality slightly. And that ignores the pollution from tyres and brakes, which will be the next big thing (surprised it's been ignored for so long, given that scientists have being talking about it for some time)

EV's are definitely the future, although current charging infrastructure (Tesla excluded) does realistically limit them to people with off street parking.

My personal issue is that nobody currently makes an EV I'd even remotely want to buy. I know Gangzoom and others rate Tesla, and after reading his comments I can understand why, but to look at inside and out, they are ghastly (and surely the Model X is an MPV (S-MAX ?) coupe, not an SUV, although to be honest not really sure what the definition is any more anyway).

The Taycan and Audi equivalent are great looking but silly money, as is the iPace (and I wouldn't touch anything from JLR anyway), which leaves a bunch of expensive short range town cars.

I know that is going to change, and hopefully what the next few years will bring is innovative design, but for now, if I was buying new, or second hand, there isn't a single EV that would get my money

Originally Posted by Bryans69

I don't see PHEVs having any real future, as they seem to be the worst of both worlds. I like the idea of them in theory, but in practice it's a lot of weight and complexity to improve local air quality slightly. And that ignores the pollution from tyres and brakes, which will be the next big thing (surprised it's been ignored for so long, given that scientists have being talking about it for some time)

I get the point, but instead of carrying around the weight of 60-70kwh of "extra" batteries a PHEV carries around an engine....given the weight of batteries I wouldn't be surprised (I have no idea) if a modest engine would be lighter......

Worst of both world or best of both worlds. Depends how you use it...


I was going to go EV but ended up PHEV as I do quite a lot of long distance journeys alongside a regular commute the batteries can largely handle.

[sahajesh]

Hmm given the choice of an Aston or a Model S, who the fk would choose a Tesla?

[gangzoom]

So it appears the Model 3 battery degrades by about 8% at 50K miles and 2 years old regardless of its supercharged alot or not.....this is WORSE than the degradation in S/X. My car is at 5% at 50K 4 years.

Apart from been cheaper, I remain far from convinced the current group of new EVs offer any real battery pack improvements versus cars from 2015 .

https://insideevs.com/news/501076/20...y-degradation/

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

So it appears the Model 3 battery degrades by about 8% at 50K miles and 2 years old regardless of its supercharged alot or not.....this is WORSE than the degradation in S/X. My car is at 5% at 50K 4 years.

Apart from been cheaper, I remain far from convinced the current group of new EVs offer any real battery pack improvements versus cars from 2015 .

https://insideevs.com/news/501076/20...y-degradation/

Well .... they're 6 years younger for a start even if the same tech

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

So it appears the Model 3 battery degrades by about 8% at 50K miles and 2 years old regardless of its supercharged alot or not.....this is WORSE than the degradation in S/X. My car is at 5% at 50K 4 years.

Apart from been cheaper, I remain far from convinced the current group of new EVs offer any real battery pack improvements versus cars from 2015 .

https://insideevs.com/news/501076/20...y-degradation/

average age of cars on UK roads is 8.4 years ie an average model 3 when it becomes an average U K car would have a battery/range that is 65%, of what it was when new which is staggering.
Why is degradation less in s/x than 3? Are the batteries used different

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

average age of cars on UK roads is 8.4 years ie an average model 3 when it becomes an average U K car would have a battery/range that is 65%, of what it was when new which is staggering.
Why is degradation less in s/x than 3? Are the batteries used different

Battery degradation SHOULD slow down after the first 50K, S/X packs show 5% degradation to about 50K, than 1% ever 10-15K after that. At 160K miles the pack shows 16% degradation. This is NOT time dependent effect, a 8 year old Model S with 50K on the clock will still only have 5% degradation.

Model 3 packs use different cell chemistry, the Model 3 pack has more energy density by about 5% interms of kWh/kg, but the main change is actually a reduction in Cobalt usage which inturn reduces the cost of the packs - hence lower price of the Model 3 versus S/X.

However the longterm viability of the 3 packs are still an unknown, as the earliest cars are from mid 2017 versus 2012 for the S/X.

[gangzoom]

Not all EVs are made the same though interms of battery performance. This is a 2015 Kia Soul EV, at less than 45K miles its showing 20-25% degradation.

An i3 with 64K miles, show 25% degradation - More relevant real world range at 70mph in winter is sub 50 miles!! Our X is at 45K and today I was did 70 miles at 'appropriate' lane 3 speeds with temperatures firmly in single digits and had zero worries about range - infact I admit I was probably over enthusiastic about been on the M-ways with little traffic around, all within legal parameters ofcourse.

Once Lockdown eases I'll have no worries taking it on a 160 mile none-stop run to Cardiff at 70mph, as much as people love to hate Tesla, untill very recently they really were the only brand in town whom delivered an EV you could actually buy/use as a family car longterm. Am actually quite surprised at how badly the Kia battery pack has degraded, I certainly wouldn't be putting down £60K on a new Kia EV without much more idea of longterm battery performance.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Not all EVs are made the same though interms of battery performance. This is a 2015 Kia Soul EV, at less than 45K miles its showing 20-25% degradation.

An i3 with 64K miles, show 25% degradation - More relevant real world range at 70mph in winter is sub 50 miles!!

That is absolutely @@@@!

[KRS_SN]

Battery degradation is just poor. Mine is bigger than yours kia v tesla and 3 v S etc is just a diversion.

[KRS_SN]

and btw bjorn nyland videos don't fill me with trust about impartiality etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeslaBjorn

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Battery degradation is just poor. Mine is bigger than yours kia v tesla and 3 v S etc is just a diversion.

Not really, our EV is coming up to 4 years old, I've just made plans for a 750 mile road trip with 6 people + bikes on the car the next half term, cannot wait. Am not sure what other EV I would be 'happy' to take on such a trip whilst carrying so much stuff .

On the whole battery degradation really shouldn't be a worry for most long-term owners, but you would be silly not to consider that if looking to buy used.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

and btw bjorn nyland videos don't fill me with trust about impartiality etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeslaBjorn

I suspect his driven more EVs than most people ever will in a lifetime!!

If you look on the web you will see some Model 3 owners claiming 5% degradation at 100k+ miles, Kona and i3 owners reporting 0% degradation at 50K. You know thats all utter rubbish, ALL Lithium ion cells degrade, its a matter of how quickly and how that translates to real life impact.

Bjorn videos are invaluable because he compares older EVs with newer ones, and its really disappointing to see just how little progress is been made in battery development.

The other big 'unknown' at present is the impact of charging at 250-300KW (so 2-3C rates) on battery life. These high power rapid chargers have only been around for the last 12 months in numbers, and the actual number of people using them regularly is very small.

As EV usage grows, more people will end up charging at 250-300KW, and often out of no choice - eg no home charging. If it transpires EV batteries degrades much faster due to regular 2-3C DC charging we'll have another 'dieselgate' on our hands but a much bigger scale.

There seems to be an assumptions rapid charging + new EV batteries = problem solved for EVs interms of mass uptake, I'm certainly not sure based on my experience of owning one for the last 5 years. If your usage situation fits, EVs are fab and a no-brainer, but in some situations, for some people they just don't work.

Personally I hate the idea of Rapid Charging, its the equivalent of running the combustion engine at max revs for 20-30 minutes none stop with not even air moving at 60-70mph+ to cool it like in a combustion car at speed, it simply cannot be good for battery packs to be so stressed. Luckily I have to hardly every rapid charge our EV, even on the planned road trip, I estimate in 750 miles I'll probably only have to use a Rapid charger twice, or even none, as I plan to do most of the charging overnight at destination stops. Even though I have 'free for life' Supercharging (so free fuel at Tesla Superchargers) I avoid using them unless I absolutely have to, I think the last time my Tesla was rapid charged was over 18 months ago.

[davyk31]

The planning for hotels with overnight charging is good but if others get there before you and the chargers are already taken. That could cost you a bit of time the next day waiting to jump on a charger. EV for me is fine so long as I know I can charge at home or at work but relying on shared chargers could turn out very bad.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by davyk31

The planning for hotels with overnight charging is good but if others get there before you and the chargers are already taken. That could cost you a bit of time the next day waiting to jump on a charger. EV for me is fine so long as I know I can charge at home or at work but relying on shared chargers could turn out very bad.

Covid Motels Davy.

The future. You drive into your own car port. Guaranteed space, plug in. Minimal human contact for check in. Room door is right there.

Only works out of town and not the luxury market for sure!

isleaiw will be along for chastise me shortly.

[davyk31]

Yep don’t think Ian will see it working for the inner London luxury market.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by davyk31

The planning for hotels with overnight charging is good but if others get there before you and the chargers are already taken.

Not when you realise you + family have booked out the every room in the B&B

I've never actually charged using an EV chargers at any hotel, always using 3pin plug + extension socket. I've yet to visit a hotel where you have parking and cannot get access to a 3 pin plug, though admittedly we go to quite remote locations with small hotels/B&B/villas rather than chain hotels in big cities.

[sahajesh]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Not when you realise you + family have booked out the every room in the B&B

I've never actually charged using an EV chargers at any hotel, always using 3pin plug + extension socket. I've yet to visit a hotel where you have parking and cannot get access to a 3 pin plug, though admittedly we go to quite remote locations with small hotels/B&B/villas rather than chain hotels in big cities.

So you have an extension lead through the window frame??

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by sahajesh

So you have an extension lead through the window frame??

Yeaph, I've run them out of windows semi shut, through letter boxes etc. Haven't yet had to run them down stairs but see no reason why not.

Obviously ideally what you want is simple 3 pin external sockets, as EV take up increases the demand for destination charging at hotels/holiday areas will go up. Getting 3 pin plugs installed is much easier than even 7KW chargers or rapid chargers.