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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N55 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > MHD N55 EWG Stage 1 dyno results are pretty disappointing
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      10-22-2018, 12:46 PM   #23
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Update ...

As expected the guys at MHD replied promptly this morning, and as expected, they were super professional and eager to help. They confirmed the 317whp number is lower then expected, and that the dyno gains they've seen on customer EWG cars with the stage 1 is closer to 70whp. This should put me somewhere in the mid-340s using my VD methodology. They also confirmed that you can use the base S2 tune with just an FMIC, and that S2 is more analogous to the n54 S1+ tune.

I sent MHD all my data, and am going to wait until they have a chance to review, and see if they want me to do any further testing. I'm most likely going to go to S2, but will wait until MHD directs me to do so.

More to come, I'm sure.
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      10-22-2018, 02:39 PM   #24
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The only time I've seen EWG N55 dynos that have this sort of powerband shape are those N55's run in really hot/heat soaking temps and/or some issue that is cutting timing. Power should and climb and peak at ~6,000-6,200 rpm on EWG N55. You're right too, power should be in the ~340whp range. There's something going on that's killing power from 5,300-6,500rpms. Everything else looks pretty normal.

I see that the shop corrected to SAE. Most tuners correct to STD for power bragging rights. STD will get you ~5% higher numbers so corrected to STD you're looking at ~330whp/365wtq if that makes you feel better

As for comparing N54 vs N55 boost numbers, remember, the N54 uses tiny turbos vs the much bigger twin scroll on the N55. Point being, psi numbers between the N54 and N55 cannot be compared. It's apples to oranges.

Was your N54 car dynoed at the same shop? What did they correct the numbers too? STD or SAE? It all makes a big difference.

Most every Dynojet I've seen for the M2 shows 330whp and 350wtq in stock form. That's pretty consistent across the board.
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      10-22-2018, 05:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
The only time I've seen EWG N55 dynos that have this sort of powerband shape are those N55's run in really hot/heat soaking temps and/or some issue that is cutting timing. Power should and climb and peak at ~6,000-6,200 rpm on EWG N55. You're right too, power should be in the ~340whp range. There's something going on that's killing power from 5,300-6,500rpms. Everything else looks pretty normal.

I see that the shop corrected to SAE. Most tuners correct to STD for power bragging rights. STD will get you ~5% higher numbers so corrected to STD you're looking at ~330whp/365wtq if that makes you feel better

As for comparing N54 vs N55 boost numbers, remember, the N54 uses tiny turbos vs the much bigger twin scroll on the N55. Point being, psi numbers between the N54 and N55 cannot be compared. It's apples to oranges.

Was your N54 car dynoed at the same shop? What did they correct the numbers too? STD or SAE? It all makes a big difference.

Most every Dynojet I've seen for the M2 shows 330whp and 350wtq in stock form. That's pretty consistent across the board.
Really appreciate your constructive contribution to this thread, wish everyone followed your example.

Yeah, I'm aware of the differences between SAE and STD, I like to use SAE 5 because it's what the shop uses. They did all the pulls on my previous n54 135i, this f30, and my s65 m3. They know their stuff, all they do is BMW, and they are the best BMW performance shop in the area. They were kind enough to let me look at various n55 EWG pulls, and after some discussion with them, we agreed there is much more upside to be had on my car.

Your observation about the power curve is interesting, and prompted me to have a closer look at the logs. The car appears to be exceeding boost target @ ~5k, and there appears to be some throttle closure to get the boost back under target. This coincides with the power curve. Perhaps this is normal, perhaps not, I'll wait to hear what MHD has to say.

I most definitely understand the differences between N54 and N55 EWG motors (I've owned both and have worked on both extensively), but respectfully, psi is psi :-). They are different motors, but they are not Chevy V8 and Mazda 2L different. They are both 3L I6 BMW engines that make pretty much the same power from the factory using pretty much the same boost in stock form. Both are capable of similar peak boost numbers on the stock turbos, both tail off at higher rpm. My N54 had an FMIC, this car does not, at least not yet. My IATs are staying under 100*, so it's not a limiting factor at this point. The n54 is ultimately more tune-able, but it's not my goal to max out the platform. Regardless, I will let MHD do their thing and see where this goes.

I will report back with more information once I get it, unless of course, I keep getting called names and ridiculed, at which point I'll just delete all the information I've posted thus far and move on.
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      10-22-2018, 05:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
but respectfully, psi is psi :-)
HAHA boost is only one of SO many other equally important variables. Boost is simply a measure of how much pressure is backed up before the engine.
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      10-22-2018, 07:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
The car appears to be exceeding boost target @ ~5k, and there appears to be some throttle closure to get the boost back under target. This coincides with the power curve. Perhaps this is normal, perhaps not, I'll wait to hear what MHD has to say.
Did you see that in the stock runs as well? Seems weird how throttle just back off
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      10-22-2018, 08:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Unfortunately the OP does not have a baseline so one doesn’t know what the real gains were.
An EWG N55 will do ~270/270 on that dyno stock. I had my car dyno'd there stock. Keep an eye out for a Blue 335i around Cary, NC

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      10-22-2018, 11:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
As expected the guys at MHD replied promptly this morning, and as expected, they were super professional and eager to help. They confirmed the 317whp number is lower then expected, and that the dyno gains they've seen on customer EWG cars with the stage 1 is closer to 70whp. This should put me somewhere in the mid-340s using my VD methodology. They also confirmed that you can use the base S2 tune with just an FMIC, and that S2 is more analogous to the n54 S1+ tune.

I sent MHD all my data, and am going to wait until they have a chance to review, and see if they want me to do any further testing. I'm most likely going to go to S2, but will wait until MHD directs me to do so.

More to come, I'm sure.
So you could do stage 2 with stock cat? Just need a fmic upgrade?
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      10-23-2018, 07:35 AM   #30
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So you could do stage 2 with stock cat? Just need a fmic upgrade?
According to MHD, base stage 2 is fine with the stock CAT. You can monitor IATs to decide when FMIC upgrade is required. Temps have really cooled where I'm at, so my IATs are not an issue right now.

Update:

MHD got back to me and said the logs look clean, but boost is a bit lower than expected. They advised me to flash S2 and report back. Flashed S2 map, and it was actually a bit worse in terms of boost performance. A lot of head scratching going on.

Here's the S2 logs (didn't have time to trim the logs before uploading):

https://datazap.me/u/thebreeze/f30-m...=0&data=3-4-13
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      10-23-2018, 07:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinner View Post
An EWG N55 will do ~270/270 on that dyno stock. I had my car dyno'd there stock. Keep an eye out for a Blue 335i around Cary, NC
We must be neighbors :-). I live over by High House and 55.
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      10-23-2018, 09:00 AM   #32
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I stopped going over that way once they closed the Five Guys! I just work over by Weston Pkwy, live over in HS.
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      10-23-2018, 09:24 AM   #33
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Numbers aren't terrible, but definitely lower then they should be. I reviewed the datalog. The log doesn't look awful... timing is nice and consistent, but boost is low. EWG can handle 14-15 psi up top. You're well below that. MHD must just tune more conservative.
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      10-23-2018, 10:58 AM   #34
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Hi neighbors. I'm in Raleigh and work in Morrisville. We should do a bimmerpost lunch one day.

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Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
We must be neighbors :-). I live over by High House and 55.
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Originally Posted by zinner View Post
I stopped going over that way once they closed the Five Guys! I just work over by Weston Pkwy, live over in HS.
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      10-23-2018, 03:08 PM   #35
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Hi neighbors. I'm in Raleigh and work in Morrisville. We should do a bimmerpost lunch one day.
Sounds like fun. Or a meet up at VIR - I've been dying to try out the new go karts :-). I'll be up there 11/1 and 11/2 with TrackDaze.
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      10-24-2018, 07:44 AM   #36
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Nice. Iíll be up the Nov 30 for charity laps. Meeting some othe car guys in Durham that morning to cruise on up the VIR. Shoot me a message if interested.

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Sounds like fun. Or a meet up at VIR - I've been dying to try out the new go karts :-). I'll be up there 11/1 and 11/2 with TrackDaze.
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      10-24-2018, 11:35 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seba77W View Post
This is why I hate these kind of quotes by tuners/sellers/fabricators. It let's them get away with even a minimal gain while advertising a huge gain that maybe they're car shop once got on 116 octane fuel and a bunch of other factors. Technically they gave you what they promised your car is running "UP TO" 370 crank HP. It doesn't say you should expect at least 370hp. Honestly on a completely stock car 317whp is not bad at all for the price. If you feel it isn't enough and you don't want to swap for a DP (I use Fabspeed catted with my MHD S2+ and no CEL and passed emissions test) then just swap Charge pipe and Intercooler and run Stage 2 map which should get you the 350whp and call it a day. You'll definitely notice a difference there.
Seba... I've been waiting for you to post a log... I looked and haven't seen one so please excuse me if I missed you posting it... very very curious...
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      10-24-2018, 04:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seba77W View Post
This is why I hate these kind of quotes by tuners/sellers/fabricators. It let's them get away with even a minimal gain while advertising a huge gain that maybe they're car shop once got on 116 octane fuel and a bunch of other factors. Technically they gave you what they promised your car is running "UP TO" 370 crank HP. It doesn't say you should expect at least 370hp. Honestly on a completely stock car 317whp is not bad at all for the price. If you feel it isn't enough and you don't want to swap for a DP (I use Fabspeed catted with my MHD S2+ and no CEL and passed emissions test) then just swap Charge pipe and Intercooler and run Stage 2 map which should get you the 350whp and call it a day. You'll definitely notice a difference there.
Seba... I've been waiting for you to post a log... I looked and haven't seen one so please excuse me if I missed you posting it... very very curious...
I don't have any logs from the newest update with the torque limited fix yet. I live in the Chicago area so not really a lot of places to pull some great logs. It's gotta be middle of the night pretty much. Maybe I will try tonight.
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      10-24-2018, 04:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Seba77W View Post
I don't have any logs from the newest update with the torque limited fix yet. I live in the Chicago area so not really a lot of places to pull some great logs. It's gotta be middle of the night pretty much. Maybe I will try tonight.
Lol... I hear yea.... I'm in NYC... 50mph is max!... but these cars are pretty darn quick and doesn't take much room to hit 90mph... heck I did it twice on the same small stretch one after another ... I slowed down to about 40ish waited for traffic to get ahead and let it rip!.... I find it safer during the day than at night for they are too busy during the day to be looking for speeders... night time they are bored... I get "Waze" going to see if anything is up ahead and go for it... Good luck and looking forward to your log posting...

waiver: This was all done on a closed course with professionals and only simulated actual for seen experiences... Do Not attempt this at home etc...

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      10-24-2018, 09:52 PM   #40
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I'll just chime in with below three points:

1) SAE and STD difference is 3%, or roughly 10whp. Not 5%.

2) N54/S55 and N55 CAN be compared. Boost is the measurement of the flow restriction at manifold, or sometimes pre-throttle. Combined with IAT, it effectively means air mass for a given charging system. Twin or single turbo is the technology to make boost. But boost is boost downstream of turbo. 17psi means the same either from single or twin turbo.
Keep in mind, the power out of the same boost can also be dictated by back pressure, that's another topic though.

3) OP you just need to adjust your expectation. From my experience, on pump gas, different N55 EWG variants makes quite different result. 135/235 will always make NOTICEABLY more than 335/435/535, everything else being equal. Again, ON PUMP GAS.

But with octane improved, that difference will be neutralized.
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      10-25-2018, 12:43 AM   #41
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Thanks for the reasonable input. Any thoughts why 135/235 (N55B30O0) give more power using same octane than 335/435 (N55B30M0)?

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Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I'll just chime in with below three points:

1) SAE and STD difference is 3%, or roughly 10whp. Not 5%.

2) N54/S55 and N55 CAN be compared. Boost is the measurement of the flow restriction at manifold, or sometimes pre-throttle. Combined with IAT, it effectively means air mass for a given charging system. Twin or single turbo is the technology to make boost. But boost is boost downstream of turbo. 17psi means the same either from single or twin turbo.
Keep in mind, the power out of the same boost can also be dictated by back pressure, that's another topic though.

3) OP you just need to adjust your expectation. From my experience, on pump gas, different N55 EWG variants makes quite different result. 135/235 will always make NOTICEABLY more than 335/435/535, everything else being equal. Again, ON PUMP GAS.

But with octane improved, that difference will be neutralized.
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      10-25-2018, 09:43 AM   #42
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I'll just chime in with below three points:
Thanks for your insight. I've been in communication with MHD, they've acknowledged there is something odd going on, and have let me know they are preparing a new map for me to test. Stay tuned.
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      10-27-2018, 08:47 PM   #43
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Why not run the stock M2 Map? This tune seems...suboptimal.
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      10-28-2018, 03:30 AM   #44
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Where do you find the stock M2 map? Is that available for everyone?
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