[Skyhigh]

Hilarious. This is like engineering for 5 year olds
"Appropriate"? Who is to say what is appropriate and based on what criteria, other than the manufacturer of the engine!? Of course no one. That right is reserved for the one that knows the design of the entire system and that is proprietary to the OEM.

I already gave the example - may someone give you a Kia instead of your BMW and claim it is "equivalent" (or "appropriate")?
Based on the above - yes! After all, the Kia covers some of the exact same criteria - 4 wheels, steering wheel, gearbox, looks like a car, sounds like a car, moves like a car, transports from A to B.... So why would it not be "equivalent" or "appropriate"... right?
I suspect BMW might disagree it is equivalent, but after all - who are they to have a say in this

[kern417]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

I thought the dealer was blaming the gauze filter which came with the intake. :

Right, but he used a cone filter. Not an aftermarket filter designed to be a replacement for the OEM one. That's why in one of my first posts i mentioned the interpretation of "aftermarket" because a lot of people on the forums think that it includes tuner parts. But in the law it's strictly referring to aftermarket direct replacements for the OEM setup.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

Hilarious. This is like engineering for 5 year olds
"Appropriate"? Who is to say what is appropriate and based on what criteria, other than the manufacturer of the engine!? Of course no one. That right is reserved for the one that knows the design of the entire system and that is proprietary to the OEM.

I already gave the example - may someone give you a Kia instead of your BMW and claim it is "equivalent" (or "appropriate")?
Based on the above - yes! After all, the Kia covers some of the exact same criteria - 4 wheels, steering wheel, gearbox, looks like a car, sounds like a car, moves like a car, transports from A to B.... So why would it not be "equivalent" or "appropriate"... right?
I suspect BMW might disagree it is equivalent, but after all - who are they to have a say in this

Originally Posted by kern417

Right, but he used a cone filter. Not an aftermarket filter designed to be a replacement for the OEM one. That's why in one of my first posts i mentioned the interpretation of "aftermarket" because a lot of people on the forums think that it includes tuner parts. But in the law it's strictly referring to aftermarket direct replacements for the OEM setup.

Skyhigh has a good point. Who decides whether it's equivalent?

In the case of oil filters for an N55 sold on RockAuto, does BMW test/certify each and every one to include "economy" parts manufacturers such as Ultra-Power, Champion Labs, Ecogard, Premium Guard, etc.? Or are these simply being claimed to be BMW compatible/equivalent by the parts manufacturers Ultra-Power, Champion Labs, Ecogard, Premium Guard, etc.?

If it's the latter, then I can imagine it's going to be a problem because BMW can say, "We've determined that the aftermarket part you used was defective and the root cause of the resulting engine damage. Just because the off-brand parts manufacturer and/or RockAuto claims it to be equivalent does not mean it is. TrhIn fact, we've never approved it as an equivalent, therefore, it's on you, as the end user to prove that it is equivalent in the case of this engine replacement warranty claim." kern417 , let's say you're right for a moment and this is not the way it is supposed to work. Was this headache worth the $2 savings on the oil filter by going with an aftermarket replacement versus a Genuine BMW part?

Obviously, it's hard for BMW to make the same assertion if they visually inspect the oil filter and it is a genuine BMW oil filter and has the correct part number stamped on it.

[BLACK HAWK DOWN]

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand why BMW considers an open pod filter a non OEM replacement part.

[Skyhigh]

Polo08816

That is precisely the situation - known and unknown manufacturers around the world, with and without decent quality assurance systems and quality manufacturing processes can and do claim that their product is "equivalent". This statement however usually refers to the so called FFF - Form, Fit, Function.
Hence a cheap, low-quality, low durability filter can be claimed to be equivalent, because:
- It has the same Form as the original BMW Part Number
- It has the same Fit (attachment point)
- It has the same basic Function - to filter air

This by NO MEANS equals "same quality" or even "appropriate quality". In most cases the exact criteria for selection of parts is not known to anyone but the system (engine) manufacturer (PR-protected design). Sometimes the prerequisites are trivial, sometimes they are very specific and stringent due to the design of other components down the line.
It is only the OEM that can determine whether a certain part is "equivalent" and to what extent. Which also makes it easy for them to claim that an aftermarket part was not and blame defects on it.

P.s. If you take Oil for example - the criteria for oil, being a consumable, are laid down in formal specs which are public domain. Manufacturers can therefore claim compliance with the spec. For components however there rarely exists any public domain spec, the design is propriatary. It is only the FFF that can be used for claiming equivalency but such equivalency is normally not recognised by the car manufacturer as it is not based on actual design data.

[jaxon20i]

Originally Posted by B58

What happen to the OP and the second dealer?

Car is still there and has been for over a month and a half, My insurance is investigating this as they too are dumbfounded as to why it isn't covered under warranty..still waiting for them to move forward with repairs.

[Beek]

Originally Posted by jaxon20i

Car is still there and has been for over a month and a half, My insurance is investigating this as they too are dumbfounded as to why it isn't covered under warranty..still waiting for them to move forward with repairs.

Thanks for the update and hoping for a solution that does not involve you buying a motor!

[White340]

Part of me would say screw the dealer that told BMW about the intake and take it to a rival dealer to get fixed. Let that dealer profit off this repair whoever ends up paying for it.

[jaxon20i]

Originally Posted by White340

Part of me would say screw the dealer that told BMW about the intake and take it to a rival dealer to get fixed. Let that dealer profit off this repair whoever ends up paying for it.

I ended up doing that, probably the best decision I have made throughout this whole process.

Unlike Center BMW, Century West BMW's service department is very helpful and a pleasure to work with.

[bimmer456]

Looks like you were able to get it fixed under warranty, congrats! Let me guess you didn't need a new engine after all.

[jaxon20i]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Looks like you were able to get it fixed under warranty, congrats! Let me guess you didn't need a new engine after all.

I wish, i'm going through the Mechanical Breakdown Coverage my insurance has because my car got flagged after being at Center BMW. My insurance is dumbfounded as to why BMW wont cover it and is trying to get a better understanding of it before they pay out, but I'm hoping this gets resolved soon.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by jaxon20i

I wish, i'm going through the Mechanical Breakdown Coverage my insurance has because my car got flagged after being at Center BMW. My insurance is dumbfounded as to why BMW wont cover it and is trying to get a better understanding of it before they pay out, but I'm hoping this gets resolved soon.

I bet you it's an easy repair they just want you to pay for a whole new engine. You can purchase all of the parts for the B58 on getbmwparts.com. If the engine is no longer covered by warranty if you can get it running right you can just drive it until the warranty would have been done anyway and you shouldn't lose too much in resale though that may depend on if it's on the carfax or any potential buyer has the VIN checked out with BMW. There was a video on youtube of this guy with a C63 S AMG that had engine damage due to water entering the intake and Mercedes wanted to replace the whole engine, it was sold at auction and the new owner was able to get it running without getting a new engine.

[DG20]

VERY similar situation happened to me. Had a cylinder misfire which lead to damage in the cylinder walls. They kept the car for over a month, had regional techs come by and do diagnostics and they came to me with "too much conflicting information". Complete waste of my time. They were asking for like $20k out of pocket. I took the car out of there and told them to fly a kite. After reading the paperwork, it seems like they blamed the internal cylinder wall damage and the misfire that happened while going 70mph on the highway on eco pro on a catted downpipe and some coding I did to make the mirrors fold when locking the door. Complete bullshit! They showed absolutely no proof of it. The scumbags at BMWNA wouldn't tell me a word about the "diagnostics" they ran and as to why the engine failed. I reckon it was a defective engine and it would only benefit them to not disclose any diagnostics.

Also learned that apparently some BMWNA reps read these forums and use information against your case. BMW has really changed their ways and crack down on everything now. Bummer. I even got denied some warranty coverage for installing aftermarket LED puddle lights (also at Center BMW). The whole engine fiasco happened at McKenna.

DM me for how I got it resolved. I don't mean to leave you with a cliff hanger, but it's too risky to share any sort of info on the forums.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by AW F30

VERY similar situation happened to me. Had a cylinder misfire which lead to damage in the cylinder walls. They kept the car for over a month, had regional techs come by and do diagnostics and they came to me with "too much conflicting information". Complete waste of my time. They were asking for like $20k out of pocket. I took the car out of there and told them to fly a kite. After reading the paperwork, it seems like they blamed the internal cylinder wall damage and the misfire that happened while going 70mph on the highway on eco pro on a catted downpipe and some coding I did to make the mirrors fold when locking the door. Complete bullshit! They showed absolutely no proof of it. The scumbags at BMWNA wouldn't tell me a word about the "diagnostics" they ran and as to why the engine failed. I reckon it was a defective engine and it would only benefit them to not disclose any diagnostics.

Also learned that apparently some BMWNA reps read these forums and use information against your case. BMW has really changed their ways and crack down on everything now. Bummer. I even got denied some warranty coverage for installing aftermarket LED puddle lights (also at Center BMW). The whole engine fiasco happened at McKenna.

DM me for how I got it resolved. I don't mean to leave you with a cliff hanger, but it's too risky to share any sort of info on the forums.

Catted downpipe? Aftermarket or stock? Tune as well?

[kern417]

Good luck OP. I found this while in another thread's discussion and just thought I'd share. Hopefully your insurance company has the legal backing to get your issue resolved.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...-north-america

[jaxon20i]

Update: Geico's MBI is useless and denied the claim due to not being able to prove the source of the problem, and suspecting it was due to modifications. They weren't very clear about it on the phone but they did say I would receive a letter in regards to why they wont help.

Does anybody know where I could get a used B58 for cheap? Don't really feel like dropping a ton of money into a leased car..

[BMR_CK]

Originally Posted by jaxon20i

Update: Geico's MBI is useless and denied the claim due to not being able to prove the source of the problem, and suspecting it was due to modifications. They weren't very clear about it on the phone but they did say I would receive a letter in regards to why they wont help.

Does anybody know where I could get a used B58 for cheap? Don't really feel like dropping a ton of money into a leased car..

Man...that totally sucks. I can’t imagine now frustrating it must be to have to deal with this. The manufacturer really does have the advantage when it comes right down to it. Good luck.

[G.Newt]

Originally Posted by jaxon20i

Update: Geico's MBI is useless and denied the claim due to not being able to prove the source of the problem, and suspecting it was due to modifications. They weren't very clear about it on the phone but they did say I would receive a letter in regards to why they wont help.

Does anybody know where I could get a used B58 for cheap? Don't really feel like dropping a ton of money into a leased car..

http://www.buyusedengine.com/used_en...BMW&model=340I

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Beek

Lets hear from everyone who has fought a warranty denial to the bitter end which will be in a Court of Law. Won or lost I'd love to hear how the process went, how much time and money you invested and what the outcome was? Dealer/manufacturer has all the power, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a broken car sitting in their driveway for months or perhaps years that they are making payments on but can't use.

3 years and $65k plus out of my pocket in parts every month in legal fees.

Manufacturer indemnified Dealership so they took it all over. They spent over $100k in legal fees according to their filings.

I won. They purchased car back. But as in virtually all non-lemon law suits, attorney fees are not reimbursed.

Also means I had to keep non-functional car for 3+ years while suit went on and obviously that includes insurance etc.

Car MSRP was about $58k new.

Originally Posted by kern417

Please stop drinking the dealership kool-aid. A lot of the companies that make aftermarket components are also OEM suppliers. It's ridiculous to think that a filter from a reputable company will blow your engine. The fact that you still think it lets larger debris through, much less debris large enough to damage your engine, shows how little you know. Meanwhile the factory engine configuration is shoveling oil vapor into the intake tract to be burned off. But it's just another part of the expensive OEM design, so it must be fine.

There is a very expensive intake that is “very well respected” and used on many M Vehicles that changed their filters about a year ago because the filters were letting in particles that were destroying turbos fins and more.

I would post brand again but got tired of F8x owners who refused to believe it was true trying to argue something they knew nothing about.

At least IND sent new filters to everyone who had previously purchased. Of course, as reason was not told why, I’m betting most just thought....wow....free replacement...I’ll just hold on to it until I need it.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by eluded

If paying out of pocket you should be allowed to keep the parts. You can then do a possible root cause analysis and then perhaps pursue legal remedies. of course this will all be out of pocket unless you win.

Nope.

Unlike rest of the world, USA does not have a loser pays Attorney Fees for both sides system. Very few laws allow for Attorney Fees as part of damages (Some States Lemon Laws do).

That’s why there are so many lawyers and ridiculous lawsuits in USA....because loser doesn’t pay for the others Attorney Fees.

[eluded]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Nope.

Unlike rest of the world, USA does not have a loser pays Attorney Fees for both sides system. Very few laws allow for Attorney Fees as part of damages (Some States Lemon Laws do).

That’s why there are so many lawyers and ridiculous lawsuits in USA....because loser doesn’t pay for the others Attorney Fees.

Not sure which state you're practicing law in but the loser sometimes does pay attorney fees.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by eluded

Not sure which state you're practicing law in but the loser sometimes does pay attorney fees.

Again, not in most cases, as stated.

And those are very specific well defined situations.

But don't take my word for it.

Loser pays, or English rule, is not the rule in USA.

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...stem-5891.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englis...s)?wprov=sfti1

And I don't practice law. Dealt with many legal issues with lawyers in real life. I only practice law on the Internet