[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Hey guys! A little sneak peek of our B58 GC testing which is underway currently. 2018 340i Tester car came in with a Mission Performance Stage 2 tune with ACN91OCT in the tank. We did 5 baseline pulls before we removed the stock turbo. The best run was 395WHP, the worst run was 377WHP. The average of all 5 runs was 383WHP. Making ZERO changes to the car except removing the stock turbo installing the GC along with its silicone intake elbow, we put it back on the back on the dyno.

The results were nothing short of amazing. With no tuning changes the car retained near stock spool, made 44WHP at peak, but the HUGE take away was power held to redline! Taking the best run of 395, and overlaying the new run with the GC, you can see that we picked a full 100WHP at redline! This was backed up by a second pull.

After we were satisfied with our before and after hardware-only delta, we flashed the car to MHD OTS Stage 2 93 Octane maps with 91 ACN only in the tank (We did this as larger turbos are more efficient). The turbo did NOT disappoint. We made 443WHP/45WTQ on pump gas ONLY. Zero fueling aids, the only mods on the car are VRSF downpipe, M-performance exhaust, and Dinan intake lid.

Boost peaks at 18 psi, and drops to around 16.5. Log: [https://datazap.me/u/vargasturbotech...og=0&data=4-19

Also for the people on the fence about tunes... we also overlaid the MHD Stage 2 93 OTS against the Mission Stage 2 93 OTS. You can make your own judgments, but the MHD makes more power, and TQ everywhere (and is smoother overall).

Our next step is, of course, is a custom 93 OCT tune with Cary Jordan, then custom E85 tune with some fueling help. We expect to see an easy 600WHP on E85. We will be releasing full results, pricing, and the GC itself for Pre-sale for Black Friday. Stay tuned!

As always any questions PM here, or shoot us an email!

[esoj37]

That's sick. I guess I will be looking forward to this next black friday!

[GT500R]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Also for the people on the fence about tunes... we also overlaid the MHD Stage 2 93 OTS against the Mission Stage 2 93 OTS. You can make your own judgments, but the MHD makes more power, and TQ everywhere (and is smoother overall).

Thanks for the info, this upgrade looks worthwhile overall

But is there a reason why the correction factor is in favor of MHD? And why do an OTS vs. OTS comparison with an upgraded hardware that it isn't fully tuned for, is that the best way to test?

Interested in MISSION PERFORMANCEs input on this...

[G.Newt]

Yeah... it's a hard pass from me on anything from VTT lol.

[MissionPerformance]

Nice results and thank you for posting up these numbers. Once again this is a great proof towards the fact that we choose safety over show numbers. Customer at hand purchased a 93oct calibration (either straight 93 or 91+e85 to bring up the octane to 93) while running 91oct fuel as per your post. The result: Severe load reduction as per knock prevention mapping in order to ensure the engine's safety. That should be clear to anyone who understands MG1 logic: First torque ramp-up checks for knock sensor input. If any amount of knock is detected, then second torque ramp-up attempt will be slower (in nm/ms). If increased amount of knock input is detected, computer will go into low octane mode and lower load targets. This is clearly demonstrated by the graphs you have shown on the bottom left. Running a stage 2 flash build for 93octane on a vehicle with only 91octane in the tank will yield powers similar to Stage 1, 91octane flash as a courtesy of the low octane load reduction functions we build into every flash we release.

Looking at the datalog graphs you have provided of the MHD flash shows over 400psi of fuel pressure drop at 5500rpm with only 18psi of boost, which is a classic sign of E85 being added. I would guess about 4 - 5 gallons of E85 on that run.

Now, everyone knows that we do not sell OTS maps, so I have no idea where you got that info from, but on 93 octane, stage 2 flash together with 93octane in the tank, you should be seeing:

[BPAC306]

Would like to see the dyno with the factory tune VS new hardware only....

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by GT500R

Thanks for the info, this upgrade looks worthwhile overall

But is there a reason why the correction factor is in favor of MHD? And why do an OTS vs. OTS comparison with an upgraded hardware that it isn't fully tuned for, is that the best way to test?

Interested in MISSION PERFORMANCEs input on this...

We have zero control of correction factor we leave it alone, it adjusts for climate such as temps, humidity, etc. We did the Mission runs obviously days before the MHD as the turbo had to be installed. Here are the same runs but uncorrected. As you can see it shows exactly why the correction factors were different. TheMission run was done in the early morning with low 50 degree temps, and more favorable relative humidity, while the MHD run was done in the afternoon with temps in the 70's. This post was not about the tunes at ALL. We simply did a comparison because we had one, what tune you choose is up to you. But the simplicity of MHD is hard to beat. We used the Wifi adapter and literally flashed the Stage 2 map in 9 seconds. Yes NINE

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by BPAC306

Would like to see the dyno with the factory tune VS new hardware only....

We would have too, we tried, for about 2 hours to flash the car back to stock using Missions software. It would never connect. I was told a few things to try, we tried them all, including two laptops, multiple Enet cables, locking the car for an hour to reset the gateway, etc, etc etc. Finally Mission told us their server was down, and we would not have access to the customers stock file for over 24 hours. At that point, we gave up on flashing it back to stock and simply flashed MHD over the existing tune, as stated before after the initial first "long" flash which took 3 minutes, the change to 93 OTS MHD took 9 seconds. So long story short, we really wanted to see stock tune with new hardware, but we were not able to access the stock file. We have moved past it now

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by MissionPerformance

Nice results and thank you for posting up these numbers. Once again this is a great proof towards the fact that we choose safety over show numbers. Customer at hand purchased a 93oct calibration (either straight 93 or 91+e85 to bring up the octane to 93) while running 91oct fuel as per your post. The result: Severe load reduction as per knock prevention mapping in order to ensure the engine's safety. That should be clear to anyone who understands MG1 logic: First torque ramp-up checks for knock sensor input. If any amount of knock is detected, then second torque ramp-up attempt will be slower (in nm/ms). If increased amount of knock input is detected, computer will go into low octane mode and lower load targets. This is clearly demonstrated by the graphs you have shown on the bottom left. Running a stage 2 flash build for 93octane on a vehicle with only 91octane in the tank will yield powers similar to Stage 1, 91octane flash as a courtesy of the low octane load reduction functions we build into every flash we release.

Looking at the datalog graphs you have provided of the MHD flash shows over 400psi of fuel pressure drop at 5500rpm with only 18psi of boost, which is a classic sign of E85 being added. I would guess about 4 - 5 gallons of E85 on that run.

Now, everyone knows that we do not sell OTS maps, so I have no idea where you got that info from, but on 93 octane, stage 2 flash together with 93octane in the tank, you should be seeing:

Well unless your customer was misinformed about what he had in his car, then not sure what to tell you on this one sir. We really have no dog in this fight, we do not do ANY tuning here. Zero, we sell hardware. The customer brought his car in with your tune on it. We did NOT TOUCH IT. He dropped it off, we drove it onto the dyno, and did our baseline practice. 3 runs back to back, cool down, then 2 more runs. The results are as we posted in the 5 runs averaged. So while you say this is what "you should be seeing" it's not actually what he was seeing. Again, we were not comparing tunes the car came in and was ran before it was touched. Obviously, these results do not mirror yours, no idea why, but this thread is not the place to debate it. This thread is about our Turbo release, not your tune. Thank you for respecting that. BTW Fuel used was what the customer brought in, fuel pressure may be dropping due to the extra 100 hp or so being made up top.

[itsglen]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

This thread is about our Turbo release, not your tune. Thank you for respecting that.

Subjectively speaking that is not the tone you set (go back and read all your comments). As a reader my take away from you is much about one tune vs the other and little or nothing to do about your product.

Might want to hit the reset button on this one. You could have simply spoken about you and your business and your results vs bringing a proven forum sponsor into the mix. It did you (IMHO) little or no good. Especially poking at someone that Toyota is working with and is a known and proven tuner (Mission Performance). That said I have much respect for MHD and what they do. But bringing them in and custom Cary tune (whatever that means) certainly takes away from your hardware that you are trying to position as a viable product worthy of our money

A new turbo would be of interest to me but at this point yours is not one of them based on what you have shared

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by itsglen

Subjectively speaking that is not the tone you set (go back and read all your comments). As a reader my take away from you is much about one tune vs the other and little or nothing to do about your product.

Might want to hit the reset button on this one. You could have simply spoken about you and your business and your results vs bringing a proven forum sponsor into the mix. It did you (IMHO) little or no good. Especially poking at someone that Toyota is working with and is a known and proven tuner (Mission Performance). That said I have much respect for MHD and what they do. But bringing them in and custom Cary tune (whatever that means) certainly takes away from your hardware that you are trying to position as a viable product worthy of our money

A new turbo would be of interest to me but at this point yours is not one of them based on what you have shared

What did he say that is wrong? Do you think he insinuated that MHD is better than MP? I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he was just giving honest feedback. He tested the car which has a Stg 2 93 MP tune but is running on ACN91 and did 5 pulls. He swaps in the turbo and does a pull then flashes to MHD and does a pull. Is he not allowed to report his observations by saying the MHD made more power and the graph looked smoother?

[itsglen]

Originally Posted by Solid67

What did he say that is wrong? Do you think he insinuated that MHD is better than MP? I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he was just giving honest feedback. He tested the car which has a Stg 2 93 MP tune but is running on ACN91 and did 5 pulls. He swaps in the turbo and does a pull then flashes to MHD and does a pull. Is he not allowed to report his observations by saying the MHD made more power and the graph looked smoother?

All about tunes when they are trying to sell turbos - thanks for making my point. Just a bad approach when you are trying to sell turbos IMHO as an example, I am interested in turbos but not one by these guys after this (but they can change my mind). Maybe you'll buy one and flash with MHD and Cary (again I don't know what that means) and give up your current set up all good looking forward to your feedback :-)

I don't think this was their intent but as I said a re-launch is probably a good idea - I would let this thread die

So my consumer marketing response to these guys is that they missed the mark. So maybe you're right and good for you (really) and looking forward to your purchase - but for me I would strongly suggest that there is probably a better launch approach and redirect in the works by them

Yes I am a MP fan - why wouldn't I be - Toyota/TRD USA agree with Me
Do I want a new turbo - sure why not?
Will I buy one from these guys based on this? No
Do I remain open minded? Yes
Can they change my mind? Yes



ps- I know you were looking for a used BM3 license - based on your sig congrats on finding one

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by Solid67

What did he say that is wrong? Do you think he insinuated that MHD is better than MP? I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he was just giving honest feedback. He tested the car which has a Stg 2 93 MP tune but is running on ACN91 and did 5 pulls. He swaps in the turbo and does a pull then flashes to MHD and does a pull. Is he not allowed to report his observations by saying the MHD made more power and the graph looked smoother?

You will never make everyone happy. This really has nothing to do with the tunes and more about transparency with what we're doing. We would have actually MUCH preferred if the car came in stock tune so we could have gotten a true baseline. We wanted to go back to stock, but when we tried to flash it back to stock it was a bit of a disaster. So we just moved on to MHD. It's good you see what we posted for what it is. Simple observation of what we observed on the dyno. First with just a hardware change, then a tune change. Is this all about the tunes? Of course not, but people forget a turbo is nothing more than a fancy fan stuck in the exhaust stream. It will do what the tune tells it (within capability of course). We observed what we observed on the dyno and used that as a baseline for our testing. From here on out it will be all custom tuning, but it seems these results maybe didn't sit well with some people. Such is life in the performance aftermarket.

For the record, we're sure that Mission could get different results tuning the car with the hardware mods we put on it. As will Cary. We'll post our progress as it comes.

Chris

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by itsglen

All about tunes when they are trying to sell turbos - thanks for making my point. Just a bad approach when you are trying to sell turbos IMHO as an example, I am interested in turbos but not one by these guys. Maybe you'll buy one and flash with MHD and Cary (again I don't know what that means) and give up your current set up all good looking forward to your feedback :-)

I don't think this was their intent but as I said a re-launch is probably a good idea - I would let this thread die

So my consumer marketing response to these guys is that they missed the mark...why? Because these things interest me, but now not by this company that's all. Hope this helps.

Yes I am a MP fan - why wouldn't I be - Toyota/TRD USA agree with Me
Do I want a new turbo - sure why not?
Will I buy one from these guys based on this? No
Do I remain open minded? Yes
Can they change my mind? Yes



ps- I know you were looking for a used BM3 license - based on your sig congrats on finding one

Ah, I see what you mean about the tunes. I didn't take it that way, but like you said, to each their own. One thing I do think that needs to be clarified is the MHD / Cary tune. I saw that you originally mentioned “Maybe you'll buy one and flash with MHD and Cary (again I don't know what that means) and give up your current set up all good looking forward to your feedback :-)” then you edited your post to congrats me about the BM3 license (thank you btw!). I think that’s where the confusion comes in. While Cary does work with MHD he is primarily known/famous for his tunes on BM3 (especially with the S55 crowd and now the B58 crowd) and I know that VTT has a pretty solid relationship with him. You would think if anything, VTT would be promoting BM3. Would have been interesting if he could have flashed a BM3 Stg 2 93 map as well. I think users of MHD/BM3 which is what used primarily by most owners are interested to see what the turbo would do with an OTS map regardless if that is the intention or not. It’s just information that is going to come out. It’s not like VTT can hide it. Maybe they could have presented it in a different way, so I can understand your point on that.

I don’t want to take this thread off-topic, but I don’t think the way MP responded was very classy. They are basically saying that VTT is lying about the MHD graph by claiming they added 4-5 gallons of E85. So now we got a tuner claiming that a vendor is lying which from some perspective seems childish and uncalled for. I have no dog in this fight as I don’t run either companies’ products. Am I interested in this turbo? Sure, but I am also looking at the Pure 700 turbo which Tom Wrigley is running on his M240i and broke a little over 700rwhp and I heard CTS and some others are coming out with their own turbos. So again, I’m just an observer.

Hopefully, there are no more issues or misunderstandings going forward.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Thanks for the support, we have no issue with Mission at all, if the car showed up making less power than it should have, just as an experienced person nevermind VTT, nevermind even more a tuner (which I'm not) there is normally a perfectly good reason for it. We ran what showed up in the fuel tank. We are excited to see the hardware perform, and it did! Ultimately people will choose tuners themselves based on history, marketing, etc. We'll work with anyone gladly. Cary just happens to be who we got to know on the S55 side of things and we like working with him, but we've worked with dozens of other guys successfully on other platforms. No big deal! Still wish the car showed up with a stock tune, but no one looking at turbos cares too much about a stock tune.

Enjoy your night sirs,
Chris

[eksigned]

Originally Posted by Solid67

Ah, I see what you mean about the tunes. I didn't take it that way, but like you said, to each their own. One thing I do think that needs to be clarified is the MHD / Cary tune. I saw that you originally mentioned “Maybe you'll buy one and flash with MHD and Cary (again I don't know what that means) and give up your current set up all good looking forward to your feedback :-)” then you edited your post to congrats me about the BM3 license (thank you btw!). I think that’s where the confusion comes in. While Cary does work with MHD he is primarily known/famous for his tunes on BM3 (especially with the S55 crowd and now the B58 crowd) and I know that VTT has a pretty solid relationship with him. You would think if anything, VTT would be promoting BM3. Would have been interesting if he could have flashed a BM3 Stg 2 93 map as well. I think users of MHD/BM3 which is what used primarily by most owners are interested to see what the turbo would do with an OTS map regardless if that is the intention or not. It’s just information that is going to come out. It’s not like VTT can hide it. Maybe they could have presented it in a different way, so I can understand your point on that.

I don’t want to take this thread off-topic, but I don’t think the way MP responded was very classy. They are basically saying that VTT is lying about the MHD graph by claiming they added 4-5 gallons of E85. So now we got a tuner claiming that a vendor is lying which from some perspective seems childish and uncalled for. I have no dog in this fight as I don’t run either companies’ products. Am I interested in this turbo? Sure, but I am also looking at the Pure 700 turbo which Tom Wrigley is running on his M240i and broke a little over 700rwhp and I heard CTS and some others are coming out with their own turbos. So again, I’m just an observer.

Hopefully, there are no more issues or misunderstandings going forward.

Just a small correction. Alex only speculated that 4-5 gallons of E had been added, not so much claimed. There's a difference! Just saying though

[kern417]

What I read:

swapped turbos = made power
switched tunes = made more power
planning to custom tune = make even more, even safer power

that's how testing works, and he's sharing his results. he's not selling anything here, just keeping interested parties, interested. there are only 2 things people are speculating about, power capacity and price. price will have to wait but this is a good nugget of data for expected output. and considering i'm sure he hasn't explained 90% of the headaches they've worked through, I appreciate the transparency.

And the MHD thing might have been the owner or Cary's call considering he just became an MHD tuner as well doesn't really matter. Cary will tune whatever map flashing software you have, because that'll all MHD and BM3 are. His custom map will be virtually the same whether you flash it through BM3 or MHD.

It's just funny how in here people get up in arms, but on the FB post we were all chanting "Do it again! Try BM3! Break something! This is exciting!"

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Progress is being made on the 93 only Results. Cary was a little busy, but we hope to have 93 only done today. We may not get E85 finished before Black Friday, but pricing and availability for pre-order at Black Friday pricing will be announced on Wednesday!

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Progress is being made on the 93 only Results. Cary was a little busy, but we hope to have 93 only done today. We may not get E85 finished before Black Friday, but pricing and availability for pre-order at Black Friday pricing will be announced on Wednesday!

How did the 93 tune go?

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by Solid67

How did the 93 tune go?

On the dyno currently. Cary is a bit of a perfectionist, which is why we love working with him. We are on pull 53 since last night I believe. We have the announcement all written up, as soon as we finalize 93OCT only we will be announcing with pricing. We will circle back around next week for full E85 results as we want to get this released for you guys for Black Friday. We had to swap on a Supra HPFP even for 93 only over 450WHP. The stock pump is really poor flowing.

[JD11937]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

On the dyno currently. Cary is a bit of a perfectionist, which is why we love working with him. We are on pull 53 since last night I believe. We have the announcement all written up, as soon as we finalize 93OCT only we will be announcing with pricing. We will circle back around next week for full E85 results as we want to get this released for you guys for Black Friday. We had to swap on a Supra HPFP even for 93 only over 450WHP. The stock pump is really poor flowing.

How involved is the hpfp swap? Can you just install and go?

[MHD Tuning]

Nice results guys, cant wait to see e85 max boost numbers!