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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Clearing Up Timing Chain Inconsistencies
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      01-14-2019, 07:03 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobluna View Post
Yep, that theory actually seems like the best explanation for the timing chain issues that I have read so far. I'm glad that my car has been, and still is, driven mainly on highways / motorways and only occasionally in city. Of course there is some city driving every day but anyway the engine gots to warm up properly almost every day.

Now I'm wondering if it would be advisable to drop the oil pan every let's say 100k miles and clean up oil pickup thoroughly. I don't know if there is some sludge that wont self clean up even if oil is changed. So even if the car is driven usually for long distances can there still be some sludge there? It would be also nice if there would be some upgrade available to oil pan that would have improved oil pickup. What I have understood the oil pump has hard time to get oil during heavy breaking and heavy cornering. If the car is tracked it might be a problem.

I'm also wondering if it would make any difference if I would do ceramic coating treatment to the engine? Something like this: https://www.rvs.fi/en/technology/
That product is claimed to help to reduce the friction between moving parts and at least some user reports says that the engine runs "smoother" after the treatment. Hard to say really if it works or not? Anyway I haven't seen any reports of the BMW users, let alone N20 users, if that kind of treatment is helpful or not.

Edit. Actually that RVS company has tested the product on E90 328i and the dyno results improved which means that internal engine friction is reduced. Of course the result must be taken with a grain of salt as the result is provided by the company selling the product. https://www.rvs.fi/wp-content/upload...estimonial.pdf
I don't think you should have much of a sludge problem if you do get the car up to full operating temp every day or so like you said. I wish I could say the same but when I'm at school, 90% of my driving are 2 mile trips to the grocery store, so at least once a week I make it a point to hit some backroads and give her a full cycle, just for this reason.

I also wouldn't consider any oil additives as real helpers the any of the issues discussed in this thread. If an oil additive could reduce friction enough to prevent a timing chain issue or cam scoring, you had too much friction happening in the first place, if that makes any sense lol.
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      01-14-2019, 08:26 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjdnyy224 View Post
I don't think you should have much of a sludge problem if you do get the car up to full operating temp every day or so like you said. I wish I could say the same but when I'm at school, 90% of my driving are 2 mile trips to the grocery store, so at least once a week I make it a point to hit some backroads and give her a full cycle, just for this reason.

I also wouldn't consider any oil additives as real helpers the any of the issues discussed in this thread. If an oil additive could reduce friction enough to prevent a timing chain issue or cam scoring, you had too much friction happening in the first place, if that makes any sense lol.
Yeah, I don't think sludge is a real problem with my current driving cycle. Especially if new oil is capable of dissolving any sludge that has been formed during use. I also have been earlier in your situation that daily drives are very short and I did exactly the same as you i.e. hit back roads and open the throttle

The RVS is not a regular oil additive because it's actually forming a ceramic coating to bearings. I think it's similar to LiquidMoly's Ceratec if you have heard of it? But anyway I tend to agree you that oil additive is not enough to prevent the issue discussed here. But maybe in addition to regular maintenance it could help something. So I'm not saying that you just put some additive in and then you can red line it when cold and do 20k miles without changing your oil

There is actually a recent thread here discussing the said additives: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1470625
The conclusion seems to be that it reduces fuel consumption a little.
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      01-14-2019, 09:28 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobluna View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjdnyy224 View Post
I don't think you should have much of a sludge problem if you do get the car up to full operating temp every day or so like you said. I wish I could say the same but when I'm at school, 90% of my driving are 2 mile trips to the grocery store, so at least once a week I make it a point to hit some backroads and give her a full cycle, just for this reason.

I also wouldn't consider any oil additives as real helpers the any of the issues discussed in this thread. If an oil additive could reduce friction enough to prevent a timing chain issue or cam scoring, you had too much friction happening in the first place, if that makes any sense lol.
Yeah, I don't think sludge is a real problem with my current driving cycle. Especially if new oil is capable of dissolving any sludge that has been formed during use. I also have been earlier in your situation that daily drives are very short and I did exactly the same as you i.e. hit back roads and open the throttle

The RVS is not a regular oil additive because it's actually forming a ceramic coating to bearings. I think it's similar to LiquidMoly's Ceratec if you have heard of it? But anyway I tend to agree you that oil additive is not enough to prevent the issue discussed here. But maybe in addition to regular maintenance it could help something. So I'm not saying that you just put some additive in and then you can red line it when cold and do 20k miles without changing your oil

There is actually a recent thread here discussing the said additives: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1470625
The conclusion seems to be that it reduces fuel consumption a little.
Does sound very similar to Liqui Molly's Ceratec. In addition to the thread you linked, there's also a thread on it in the General forum, and the consensus seems about the same, if not slightly disputed, partially by me . I definitely don't think it would do anything but help towards the effort of engine preservation, I'm just skeptical of really how much. I linked a video in the thread in the general section where a guy did some tests, and the results were that the film strength of Ceratec and oil wasn't really any better than just oil, largely going against the claim that it will help prevent wear on internal engine components.
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      02-07-2019, 06:09 PM   #136
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Bit of an update. I'm going to try to fix the light scoring on intake and exhaust cam bearings. However, for now I have put the car into storage as I got a great deal on a Cadillac ATSV 6 spd Manual with a small flame damage. I will work on that first then put
the N20 engine together and see if everything works. I would imagine most N20 engines would show some cam bearing scoring especially if running on the stop and go.
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      02-07-2019, 06:47 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qualicas View Post
Bit of an update. I'm going to try to fix the light scoring on intake and exhaust cam bearings. However, for now I have put the car into storage as I got a great deal on a Cadillac ATSV 6 spd Manual with a small flame damage. I will work on that first then put
the N20 engine together and see if everything works. I would imagine most N20 engines would show some cam bearing scoring especially if running on the stop and go.
Congrats on the ATS-V, awesome car.

How do you go about fixing scoring on the bearings without just replacing them?
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      02-27-2019, 03:51 PM   #138
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I have and 2013 F25 N20 and had my timing chain guide fail this week at approximately 60K miles. BMW have kindly stepped up and are fixing everything under the extended warranty. Thank you BMW NA. They did not question anything, just advised me they would not be charging me anything to replace the timing chain, guide and oil pump. I have a friend with a 2016 F25 N20, they are wondering if they are in the same boat or is there vehicle after the design change. Any idea?
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      02-27-2019, 06:38 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojomosgo View Post
I have and 2013 F25 N20 and had my timing chain guide fail this week at approximately 60K miles. BMW have kindly stepped up and are fixing everything under the extended warranty. Thank you BMW NA. They did not question anything, just advised me they would not be charging me anything to replace the timing chain, guide and oil pump. I have a friend with a 2016 F25 N20, they are wondering if they are in the same boat or is there vehicle after the design change. Any idea?
They allegedly re-designed some parts after 2015, but I've yet to see actual proof of that. From the reading I've done, it's a crap shoot whether or not you're affected.
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      02-27-2019, 07:09 PM   #140
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I am taking mine in next week to hopefully get mine replaced under warranty. It has been whining for a months now. Not really loud so I hope they hear it enough to replaced it.
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      02-27-2019, 07:59 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by obert View Post
I am taking mine in next week to hopefully get mine replaced under warranty. It has been whining for a months now. Not really loud so I hope they hear it enough to replaced it.
bmw Bellevue? Thats where I tried to get mine changed under warranty and was told its "turbo" sounds like im some dumbass.
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      02-27-2019, 08:46 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by RMachuca3d View Post
bmw Bellevue? Thats where I tried to get mine changed under warranty and was told its "turbo" sounds like im some dumbass.
No Seattle. I have a pretty good relationship with my SA so I am hoping they will hear something and help me out. They replaced my steering rack due to a clunk in the steering that was close to 3g.
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      03-06-2019, 07:41 PM   #143
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My car has been at the dealer for 2 days now with no word back about the noise that I believe to be the timing chain issue and also an oil leak.

My hope is they are waiting to hear back from BMW so they can start the work under my CPO/ extended warranty for the chain.
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      03-07-2019, 03:17 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obert View Post
My car has been at the dealer for 2 days now with no word back about the noise that I believe to be the timing chain issue and also an oil leak.

My hope is they are waiting to hear back from BMW so they can start the work under my CPO/ extended warranty for the chain.
bmw bellevue had my car for 3 days just to say its turbo whine, while I hope they do change it, dont hold your breath!
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      03-07-2019, 08:17 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by RMachuca3d View Post
bmw bellevue had my car for 3 days just to say its turbo whine, while I hope they do change it, dont hold your breath!
Yeah they fixed the oil leak but are telling me they done hear anything and they want me to come in and try to show them what I hear.
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      04-17-2019, 12:51 PM   #146
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Anyone know if a 2015 228i with a 12/19/2014 build date per the vin would have the updated timing chain?

Car has 105k miles and no repair records for the timing chain
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      04-17-2019, 06:50 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Big_CG View Post
Anyone know if a 2015 228i with a 12/19/2014 build date per the vin would have the updated timing chain?

Car has 105k miles and no repair records for the timing chain
Chances are its the old one.
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      04-18-2019, 04:46 PM   #148
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Just as FYI ... it seems that BMW Canada has also extended the timing chain warranty. I emailed BMW Canada and below is their response:

Quote:
Thank you for contacting BMW Canada. We appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

Please be advised that extended parts warranties, much like recalls, are specific to the VIN of a vehicle based on factors like production dates, part affected, etc. Therefore, not every vehicle of the same year and model will be subject to the same extended warranties. However, our records indicate that your 2013 BMW 328i x-drive has an extended warranty for the engine timing and oil pump valid until March 16 2020 or 112,600 km whichever comes first. We hope you find this information helpful.
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      06-18-2019, 02:49 PM   #149
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2013 N20. 82k miles. Heard whine and took into dealership. Called BMW NA and they paid 50% despite being out of warranty. Always worth a call.
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      06-25-2019, 02:53 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattwong92 View Post
So update:

Got my car back from the dealership, did not get any work done. They brought in a Engineer Rep from Germany who happened to be visiting the dealership to look at my car (even got him on dash cam lol).

He explained that:
- when the n20 engine cams lobes come to rest vertically straight up at a very specific point the lobe will rotate back slightly (very rarely will it do so it needs to come to a stop exactly at that point).
- When the lobe rotates back slightly on engine stop, there will have slack on the chain that you see in my video (enough to lift the chain 1-2 cm off the guide)
- He said he was very surprised i even noticed this in my car as no one ever looks at it and happens in a very rare use case.
- Otherwise you will see very slight play in the chain, and movement side to side up and down depending on oil pressure due to the hydraulic tensioner used when the lobe takes up all the rest of the slack on the chain.
- Overall listening to my engine he said it sounded very healthy, and the only cases in which the timing chain shows symptoms of going out is the VERY loud high pitched whining noise. Additionally as more and more slack appears in the chain over time you will hear loud noises that sound like rod knock.
- Overall he said a lot of customers are concerned with their timing chains but from every single n20 that has been completely broken down in the shop for the repair they have VERY noticeable sounds and has affected a very low number of cars.
- From the engines and cars that have had this issue they were being driven or had been going over the expected oil change intervals at around 15-20k miles before changing.

Not sure if this info is helpful or not but posting here anyways thanks!
This should be a sticky. It answers the questions about the N20/N26 Timing Chain failure issue, and really puts to rest a lot of anxiety.
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      06-25-2019, 07:27 PM   #151
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This is a lie. I change my oil at every 10000km and ASS is coded off since day 1. Yet, my timing chain guide was broken at 70000km mileage.
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      07-22-2019, 03:03 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierreye View Post
This is a lie. I change my oil at every 10000km and ASS is coded off since day 1. Yet, my timing chain guide was broken at 70000km mileage.
True. My car was sent in for valve cover gasket leaking, and they found problems with my timing chain and guide rails (noise and loose) and got it changed. Thank goodness it hasn't completely failed. Both occurred at 74,*** km.
I always turn off the ASS function, engine oil every 8-10k km based on the cbs. Making sure properly warm up before driving it hard.

Production date 12/2014
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      07-22-2019, 08:34 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphy View Post
True. My car was sent in for valve cover gasket leaking, and they found problems with my timing chain and guide rails (noise and loose) and got it changed. Thank goodness it hasn't completely failed. Both occurred at 74,*** km.
I always turn off the ASS function, engine oil every 8-10k km based on the cbs. Making sure properly warm up before driving it hard.

Production date 12/2014
You got it change under warranty by Auto Bavaria?
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      07-25-2019, 01:59 PM   #154
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Some of the comments on this video are worth checking out

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