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      07-13-2020, 10:30 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuiman View Post
ARP headstuds
I use ARP Head studs for N55 follow your recommend.
And you add timeserted on 4 conner or all point?
provided they're the correct N55 ones, as the ones i bought ended up being the N54 ones.

If they're the correct N55 ones (as in theyre closer to 170mm total length) then Torque to 95 LB-FTs in 3 equal steps, and run the motor once let it heat up, then remove valve cover and re-check TQ on the studs. Due to clearance issues i couldn't install the studs with washers.

for corner holes must be timeserted and the cylinder head holes need to be enlarged abit to fit the bigger studs. you will also need to make new alignment dowels in the block to correctly align the head to the block.

I ordered N55 studs from VAC and received the N54 ones... hopefully you don't have that, otherwise all 10 holes must be timeserted. to fit the studs.
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      07-16-2020, 10:27 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
If they're the correct N55 ones (as in theyre closer to 170mm total length) then Torque to 95 LB-FTs in 3 equal steps, and run the motor once let it heat up, then remove valve cover and re-check TQ on the studs. Due to clearance issues i couldn't install the studs with washers.
Can you do that without removing the cams? I had trouble fitting a socket in some of the spots, but maybe I was using the wrong size socket (I don't know what size the ARP head studs need).

Nice thing with the stock head studs is a T55 fits in there. Makes R&R of the head easier.
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      07-20-2020, 02:00 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSmith View Post
Can you do that without removing the cams? I had trouble fitting a socket in some of the spots, but maybe I was using the wrong size socket (I don't know what size the ARP head studs need).

Nice thing with the stock head studs is a T55 fits in there. Makes R&R of the head easier.
Yeah, I managed to torque it all up without removing cams and Springs etc. I was using a thin walled 14mm Multi hex socket, technically the nuts are imperial, however the correct sized socket wouldn't fit without removing valve springs (not very ideal). I came across this thin walled 14mm spark plug socket that Actually fits the nuts well and allowed correct installation of the nuts to the stud, with valve springs and cams installed. You will need to use an Allen key to adjust the variable valve lift cam to get to that middle stud.
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      08-05-2020, 03:33 AM   #114
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Navardi - I want to ask you for advice for my project, since your are an expert.

My car is 2012 320i F30 N20 ( 184hp stock ). Currently I am running the 270hp / 405 newtonometre tune. My first goal is to get to 320-330hp as it was intended ( before my car showed P13C0 error code during first dyno run ). 330hp is the first goal I want to reach with current hardware setup, after I get rid with error code reason.

The secondary goal, that I want to ask you for advice about is reaching 390-400 BHP ( with 100 octane fuel ). The car is a daily driver, not tracked, not abused, nothing like it.

Current setup is:

- 320i N20 motor
- 100 cpsi super-high flow downpipe ( has the same flow as decatted one )
- TurboWorks performance intercooler core size: 510mm/ 210mm / 110-40mm
- Custom performance kevlar clutch 400+ BHP ready
- Hybrid true stage 2 turbo with forged compressor wheel
- External 10'' oil cooler

I want to safely reach 400 BHP and be able to use it everyday without fear of blowing the motor, what parts should be replaced in order to allow that in future?

After going through the thread I have following conclusions about parts, which need to be replaced in the hardware side:

- Wallbro 450 LPFP ( or even Wallbro 525 )
- EDIT: NGK 97506 spark plugs ( thanks sspade! )
- VRSF 6'' Race intercooler or something even bigger if existing ?
- Harder ARP main studs 6-10 pieces, 11mm diameter ( I want to avoid drilling / timeserting if possible )
- 10x ARP2000 10MM studs are for bedplate, right?
- FTP Charge Pipe and Inlet Pipe
- VAC-Cooper-ring-headgasket
- Maybe oil catch can?

Anything else ???

Regards

Last edited by Zagloba; 08-06-2020 at 02:53 AM..
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      08-05-2020, 05:03 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagloba View Post
Navardi - I want to ask you for advice for my project, since your are an expert.

My car is 2012 320i F30 N20 ( 184hp stock ). Currently I am running the 270hp / 405 newtonometre tune. My first goal is to get to 320-330hp as it was intended ( before my car showed P13C0 error code during first dyno run ). 330hp is the first goal I want to reach with current hardware setup, after I get rid with error code reason.

The secondary goal, that I want to ask you for advice about is reaching 390-400 BHP ( with 100 octane fuel ). The car is a daily driver, not tracked, not abused, nothing like it.

Current setup is:

- 320i N20 motor
- 100 cpsi super-high flow downpipe ( has the same flow as decatted one )
- TurboWorks performance intercooler core size: 510mm/ 210mm / 110-40mm
- Custom performance kevlar clutch 400+ BHP ready
- Hybrid true stage 2 turbo
- External 10'' oil cooler

I want to safely reach 400 BHP and be able to use it everyday without fear of blowing the motor, what parts should be replaced in order to allow that in future?

After going through the thread I have following conclusions about parts, which need to be replaced in the hardware side:

- Wallbro 450 LPFP ( or even Wallbro 525 )
- N55 or M3 spark plugs
- VRSF 6'' Race intercooler or something even bigger if existing ?
- Harder ARP main studs
- FTP Charge Pipe and Inlet Pipe
- VAC-Cooper-ring-headgasket

Anything else ???

Regards
You're going to the moon once that baby blows
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      08-05-2020, 07:14 PM   #116
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@Zagloba

The N55/S55 owners actually switch their plugs to the N20 ones believe it or not, since they are one step colder.

Make sure you are running NGK 97506
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      08-06-2020, 04:21 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagloba View Post
Navardi - I want to ask you for advice for my project, since your are an expert.

My car is 2012 320i F30 N20 ( 184hp stock ). Currently I am running the 270hp / 405 newtonometre tune. My first goal is to get to 320-330hp as it was intended ( before my car showed P13C0 error code during first dyno run ). 330hp is the first goal I want to reach with current hardware setup, after I get rid with error code reason.

The secondary goal, that I want to ask you for advice about is reaching 390-400 BHP ( with 100 octane fuel ). The car is a daily driver, not tracked, not abused, nothing like it.

Current setup is:

- 320i N20 motor
- 100 cpsi super-high flow downpipe ( has the same flow as decatted one )
- TurboWorks performance intercooler core size: 510mm/ 210mm / 110-40mm
- Custom performance kevlar clutch 400+ BHP ready
- Hybrid true stage 2 turbo with forged compressor wheel
- External 10'' oil cooler

I want to safely reach 400 BHP and be able to use it everyday without fear of blowing the motor, what parts should be replaced in order to allow that in future?

After going through the thread I have following conclusions about parts, which need to be replaced in the hardware side:

- Wallbro 450 LPFP ( or even Wallbro 525 )
- EDIT: NGK 97506 spark plugs ( thanks sspade! )
- VRSF 6'' Race intercooler or something even bigger if existing ?
- Harder ARP main studs 6-10 pieces, 11mm diameter ( I want to avoid drilling / timeserting if possible )
- 10x ARP2000 10MM studs are for bedplate, right?
- FTP Charge Pipe and Inlet Pipe
- VAC-Cooper-ring-headgasket
- Maybe oil catch can?

Anything else ???

Regards
Hi,

NGK 97506 are the stock plugs on the N20 sspade is correct, the other bigger engines use our plugs as upgrades, you will need to gap them however to 0.02"

To correct your list there, ARP Main studs hold the crank in place, the 11mm ARP studs are for the cylinder head and you will need to timesert the block for these (only 4 corner holes).

Mods you should be looking into for this power figure are, Oil Catch can (this should be done on a stock motor TBH).
Bigger intercooler the better, 6 or 7inch I know the Mishimoto "Performance" intercooler is one of the biggest on the market.

https://www.mishimoto.com.au/bmw-f22...oler-2012.html

Mainstuds and Head stud including Head Gasket upgrade only necessary for 28-30+ PSI long term, realistically you would look at forged internals before you look at these other complimentary mods.

However to answer your overall question, The 320i runs the 11:1 Comp Pistons, on 100 Oct i assume its a blend of E85? we could hit close to 380whp with boost in the right place, this motor can't run as much boost but that doesn't limit its max HP output compared to the 10:1 Comp motor, however you must understand especially on this variant of motor you run a risk over 315WHP. It can however be done, and as per my tuning and testing on a stock motor that came into my possession, you can safely push 380ish whp from the stock motor, provided the boost curve comes on right and the right turbo is used. Between the 11:1 and 10:1 Comp N20's is about 2psi of boost difference on the tuning spectrum, so we could push 22-23psi around the 4900RPM band and hold it until the 6900 rpm band with that turbo and make some decent power.

Custom tune is required for this, and the amount of boost required is fuel and Compression related, we wouldn't be raising boost above stage 2 OTS until 4K RPM mark, Being Higher Comp we can get away with some nice High content E mixes, before the HPFP crashes.


Hope this answers your question.
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      08-07-2020, 05:01 PM   #118
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You need a bigger turbo to limit the torque output of the engine so rods don't snap. Main issue with our motor setup is the turbo produces a large spike early in the RPM range because of how undersized it is, which loads the bearing cap and forces extreme amounts of force which stretches the rods and boom goes the motor. What my garage and I have done is basically put a bigger turbo on this motor to move the torque curve to the right of the power band around the 4K RPM mark and tuning will need to be done just like the EVO boys do it. Limit the torque on the low end to around 330-350 max and bring it all in after 4K so graph will look like a normal turbo car. Right now I am limited on the fuel pump and will be doing the Dorch Engineering B58 pump and custom fuel line to get the fuel pressure up. This should be good for over 650-700+ HP on our motor.

I have in the works a full engine build for the car. Just need to get funds and time in order.

Plan is to do the following:
Redo the Twin scroll manifold and external dump pipe. Haven't decided if I want to do bottom mount or do another top mount. Still playing around with header design and lengths as I want the best spool possible with the big turbo.
Make turbo J piping 2.5- 2.75" for hotside with 50MM Tial BOV to eliminate the stock DV setup and blow outs.
Use Vibrant HD camps on everything to eliminate the stock BMW clamps that just don't seal right ever!
Closed deck block
Fully forged internals
Blueprinted and balanced rotating assembly
Line hone block
Dorch Engineering B58 pump
Possible Fuel lines later down the road will need to see what the bottle neck is with flow once we start pushing power
N54 6 speed
DKM n54 Twin Disk and flywheel
RPI Shifter and DSSR
M performance Brake setup
MHD tuner or Haltech ECU. Depending if I can find someone that will be able to tune this car locally. Aftermarket support for tuning these cars is so limited compared to any other platform... hate it, haha.
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2012 F30: 5959 Big Turbo, Top Mount Mani+ DP+Intake, CSF FMIC, FTP CP, Walbro 450LPFP, AIC 4 with BM3, ZF Race 4 Puck and Non SSA Pressure plate, Catless, 3.5" Quad Muffler, Custom Valved Bilstein B8 + H&R SS. Max HP 428WHP 452WTRQ.
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      08-09-2020, 08:02 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D041987 View Post
You need a bigger turbo to limit the torque output of the engine so rods don't snap. Main issue with our motor setup is the turbo produces a large spike early in the RPM range because of how undersized it is, which loads the bearing cap and forces extreme amounts of force which stretches the rods and boom goes the motor. What my garage and I have done is basically put a bigger turbo on this motor to move the torque curve to the right of the power band around the 4K RPM mark and tuning will need to be done just like the EVO boys do it. Limit the torque on the low end to around 330-350 max and bring it all in after 4K so graph will look like a normal turbo car. Right now I am limited on the fuel pump and will be doing the Dorch Engineering B58 pump and custom fuel line to get the fuel pressure up. This should be good for over 650-700+ HP on our motor.

I have in the works a full engine build for the car. Just need to get funds and time in order.

Plan is to do the following:
Redo the Twin scroll manifold and external dump pipe. Haven't decided if I want to do bottom mount or do another top mount. Still playing around with header design and lengths as I want the best spool possible with the big turbo.
Make turbo J piping 2.5- 2.75" for hotside with 50MM Tial BOV to eliminate the stock DV setup and blow outs.
Use Vibrant HD camps on everything to eliminate the stock BMW clamps that just don't seal right ever!
Closed deck block
Fully forged internals
Blueprinted and balanced rotating assembly
Line hone block
Dorch Engineering B58 pump
Possible Fuel lines later down the road will need to see what the bottle neck is with flow once we start pushing power
N54 6 speed
DKM n54 Twin Disk and flywheel
RPI Shifter and DSSR
M performance Brake setup
MHD tuner or Haltech ECU. Depending if I can find someone that will be able to tune this car locally. Aftermarket support for tuning these cars is so limited compared to any other platform... hate it, haha.

Correct, too much TQ below 3500 stresses the rods way to much Etc.

You'll wanna add T-top sleeves to that list too
Line Honing shouldn't be necessary unless the Crankshaft tunnel is out of round, and your bearing tolerances are off.

My PI Setup is slowly coming along and we're looking at mass production, B58TU pump will slide in no tuning required, the B58 (non TU) and N55 stock pumps aren't an upgrade. However XDI/Dorch etc obviously are but you'll need to grab the pump data to have it calibrated into the ecu. (besides all those custom lines etc you'll need to make).

MHD, from what i heard have no plans to support the N20 platform, Only BM3 does (besides the usual ECM Titanium, WinOLS etc etc), Send me a DM if you're interested in BM3 tuning. Haltech won't support the N20 due to DI, your solution is either a Motec M142 or a Link G4+ GDI (Link is more closer to Haltech pricing). However these solutions also don't support Flex-ray so you'll lose some factory features/modules (steering rack communication being one of them).


Through BM3 tuning boost targets above the 22.4psi Diag limit can be reached and PTF are looking at eventually adding support to allow the removal of EWG control for big PWG turbo setups (on Cars that have EWG factory) so far B58, S55 and some B48s are supported.


As long as the right fuel is used and Boost (based on the right Turbo setup) is placed correctly in the RPM range the N20 stock could make some decent power in the 400WHP range, without the rod bolt upgrade.

N20 needs some love and some better tuning options for big turbo setups.
people just need to remember not to turn the boost up (beyond current stg 2 figures) before 3500 rpm.
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      08-09-2020, 11:24 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D041987 View Post
You need a bigger turbo to limit the torque output of the engine so rods don't snap. Main issue with our motor setup is the turbo produces a large spike early in the RPM range because of how undersized it is, which loads the bearing cap and forces extreme amounts of force which stretches the rods and boom goes the motor. What my garage and I have done is basically put a bigger turbo on this motor to move the torque curve to the right of the power band around the 4K RPM mark and tuning will need to be done just like the EVO boys do it. Limit the torque on the low end to around 330-350 max and bring it all in after 4K so graph will look like a normal turbo car. Right now I am limited on the fuel pump and will be doing the Dorch Engineering B58 pump and custom fuel line to get the fuel pressure up. This should be good for over 650-700+ HP on our motor.

I have in the works a full engine build for the car. Just need to get funds and time in order.

Plan is to do the following:
Redo the Twin scroll manifold and external dump pipe. Haven't decided if I want to do bottom mount or do another top mount. Still playing around with header design and lengths as I want the best spool possible with the big turbo.
Make turbo J piping 2.5- 2.75" for hotside with 50MM Tial BOV to eliminate the stock DV setup and blow outs.
Use Vibrant HD camps on everything to eliminate the stock BMW clamps that just don't seal right ever!
Closed deck block
Fully forged internals
Blueprinted and balanced rotating assembly
Line hone block
Dorch Engineering B58 pump
Possible Fuel lines later down the road will need to see what the bottle neck is with flow once we start pushing power
N54 6 speed
DKM n54 Twin Disk and flywheel
RPI Shifter and DSSR
M performance Brake setup
MHD tuner or Haltech ECU. Depending if I can find someone that will be able to tune this car locally. Aftermarket support for tuning these cars is so limited compared to any other platform... hate it, haha.
Hello,

I also own a n20 320i custom tuned to ~285whp and 382 wtq (Nm). I have not touched any engine internals, just running FBO (DP, FMIC).

That kind of power is nothing compared to your projects' but I am just curious if the torque limits of 330 - 350 below 3500 RPM are in Nm or lbft?

Because my maximum torque belongs to an interval between 2800 - 3500 RPM, which is already an improvement over the OTS maps where max torque hits around 2000 RPM..

Best regards
Naiters
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      08-10-2020, 07:54 AM   #121
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Hi Navardi - it's not mix of E85, here in Poland 100 octane is easily accesible fuel, every gas station sells 95 and 98 octane, 100 octane can be bought easily aswell.

Btw. in that case I am really considering switching to 328i stock 10:1 Comp Pistons or CP Forged pistons 84.5mm comp 10.1 ( or lower compression ones? ) and Chromoly Pins

Regards

Last edited by Zagloba; 08-10-2020 at 08:02 AM..
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      08-15-2020, 08:47 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naiters View Post
Hello,

I also own a n20 320i custom tuned to ~285whp and 382 wtq (Nm). I have not touched any engine internals, just running FBO (DP, FMIC).

That kind of power is nothing compared to your projects' but I am just curious if the torque limits of 330 - 350 below 3500 RPM are in Nm or lbft?

Because my maximum torque belongs to an interval between 2800 - 3500 RPM, which is already an improvement over the OTS maps where max torque hits around 2000 RPM..

Best regards
Naiters
Hi
BMW tuned these on NM so you should really think of anything BMW related in NM not LBFT.

When tuning, which is done based on NM at the Flywheel (can't tell you how accurate this is) generally, at 2000 rpm you want to target anywhere from 350-380nm, 2500rpm is 420nm, 3000rpm is 420nm 3500 is 420nm. What i have just referenced is the TQ you would target from the DME end as the DME is load based tuning, Bosch/BMW state that these values are "Targeted TQ values at the flywheel" so account for 15% driveline losses for the "at the wheels" figures. what this equates to is 2850 rpm is 18psi 3000rpm is 20 psi and 3250 is 22psi (these values may vary abit as the DME is load based tuning not Boost based tuning). The 320i or the N20 High comp motors just subtract 2 psi from what i just stated. At the end of the day the 320 and 328 or the "high Compression" and "low compression" N20s can target the same TQ to the wheels/Flywheel just the boost and internal load will be different, as higher compression requires less boost to make the same power/TQ, there are alot of advantages to a High compression motor and a low compression motor.

When tuning the N20 its quite hard (unless you change a lot of the way boost and load is calculated) to target more than 20 psi below 3000 rpm, its a pretty fool proof way of keeping the engine from bending a rod. I can understand the appeal to increasing boost below 3000rpm either via JB4/piggyback or altering the DME boost/load calculation logic, due to the nature of this turbo, it struggles to hold 22psi passed 5000 rpm. It has a very small efficiency range, good from a factory pov but from a tuning perspective should be on everyones upgrade list if you are on the hunt for power.

I hope this answers what you are after.

feel free to ask more questions and i will answer what i can.
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      08-15-2020, 08:54 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagloba View Post
Hi Navardi - it's not mix of E85, here in Poland 100 octane is easily accesible fuel, every gas station sells 95 and 98 octane, 100 octane can be bought easily aswell.

Btw. in that case I am really considering switching to 328i stock 10:1 Comp Pistons or CP Forged pistons 84.5mm comp 10.1 ( or lower compression ones? ) and Chromoly Pins

Regards

Hi,
Good to know you can get 100 octane,
So basically, if you're going to open the engine, even changing pistons you need to install cylinder sleeves or re-apply the factory plasma arc coating which is pretty average for performance hunting.

If you're opening the engine it doesn't make sense to install stock internals, i know forged goodies cost money, but engine rebuilds labour is the most expensive part of the whole process, so save yourself a future rebuild do it once do it right. Max Speeding Rods have some cheaper aftermarket connecting rods for the N20 btw but they're power rated to 600 or 800 hp depending on the rod bolts selected whereas the Carrillos are rated much higher.

No point going below 10.0:1 Compression, You lower compression to raise boost if your chosen turbo has greater airflow at higher boost pressures. so what this means is go 10.0:1 or stick to 11.0:1 and find a turbo that will deliver great airflow within the 20-30psi range.

CP make pistons in a 9.85 (or somewhere close to it), 10.0:1 or 11.0:1 compression pistons off the shelf.
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      10-15-2020, 06:18 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
Correct, too much TQ below 3500 stresses the rods way to much Etc.

You'll wanna add T-top sleeves to that list too
Line Honing shouldn't be necessary unless the Crankshaft tunnel is out of round, and your bearing tolerances are off.

My PI Setup is slowly coming along and we're looking at mass production, B58TU pump will slide in no tuning required, the B58 (non TU) and N55 stock pumps aren't an upgrade. However XDI/Dorch etc obviously are but you'll need to grab the pump data to have it calibrated into the ecu. (besides all those custom lines etc you'll need to make).

MHD, from what i heard have no plans to support the N20 platform, Only BM3 does (besides the usual ECM Titanium, WinOLS etc etc), Send me a DM if you're interested in BM3 tuning. Haltech won't support the N20 due to DI, your solution is either a Motec M142 or a Link G4+ GDI (Link is more closer to Haltech pricing). However these solutions also don't support Flex-ray so you'll lose some factory features/modules (steering rack communication being one of them).


Through BM3 tuning boost targets above the 22.4psi Diag limit can be reached and PTF are looking at eventually adding support to allow the removal of EWG control for big PWG turbo setups (on Cars that have EWG factory) so far B58, S55 and some B48s are supported.


As long as the right fuel is used and Boost (based on the right Turbo setup) is placed correctly in the RPM range the N20 stock could make some decent power in the 400WHP range, without the rod bolt upgrade.

N20 needs some love and some better tuning options for big turbo setups.
people just need to remember not to turn the boost up (beyond current stg 2 figures) before 3500 rpm.
Hows the progress going ? Hopefully great, Im in the middle of building my engine and I wanted to know if your PI setup is available to buy. Also can you explain the B58 TU pump, like where can you get it and whats the difference with the regular B58 pump. Thanks
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      10-15-2020, 07:11 PM   #125
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Nvm I found out the difference. Just wanted to reconfirm that the b58tu pump will be plug and play without having to use a bm3 flash ?? And that it would run ok even stock. Sorry for all the questions, just want to get everything done right the first time
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      10-18-2020, 04:39 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Nvm I found out the difference. Just wanted to reconfirm that the b58tu pump will be plug and play without having to use a bm3 flash ?? And that it would run ok even stock. Sorry for all the questions, just want to get everything done right the first time
Hi, B58TU pump from a flash perspective is Plug and Play, but will require Custom HPFP lines which in itself currently is hard and expensive todo.

Precision Raceworks apparently are bringing their own PI kit to the N20 soon, As it stands Fuel-IT CPi Kit (B58 kit comes with everything you need tbh) does work.

COVID-19 has pretty much delayed everything regarding my build, everything is on hold for now. Although I have finished my Prototype Bracket and once I can find a supplier for the custom Intake manifold studs I will be able to test out the first 3D Printed N20 PI Setup.

Let me know if there is anything further I can assist with.
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      10-20-2020, 01:50 AM   #127
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I keep seeing recommendations to keep the torque low at low RPM. I'm not sure if I'm just misunderstanding the recommendation or if there's more to it. Why would the engine care if I make 350 ft lbs at 3000 RPM vs 4000 RPM? Aren't the stresses the same? Or is it that the combustion expansion happens at the same speed, so if the piston doesn't move "out of the way" then it experiences a spikier load at low RPM than high RPM (even if the average load is the same)?

Ideally I'd like to run 350-375 ft lbs to the wheels at 3000, tapering down to 300 at 4000 RPM (due to competition rules), but I'm not sure if the motor will hold up (all I have are ARP rod bolts, catless downpipe, and 100 octane fuel). Is that achievable or do I really need aftermarket rods/pistons?
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      10-20-2020, 11:18 PM   #128
Kel918
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Originally Posted by navardi View Post
Hi, B58TU pump from a flash perspective is Plug and Play, but will require Custom HPFP lines which in itself currently is hard and expensive todo.

Precision Raceworks apparently are bringing their own PI kit to the N20 soon, As it stands Fuel-IT CPi Kit (B58 kit comes with everything you need tbh) does work.

COVID-19 has pretty much delayed everything regarding my build, everything is on hold for now. Although I have finished my Prototype Bracket and once I can find a supplier for the custom Intake manifold studs I will be able to test out the first 3D Printed N20 PI Setup.

Let me know if there is anything further I can assist with.
Thanks for the response !! How much horsepower can the stock fuel system support ??
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      10-27-2020, 05:03 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by ScottSmith View Post
I keep seeing recommendations to keep the torque low at low RPM. I'm not sure if I'm just misunderstanding the recommendation or if there's more to it. Why would the engine care if I make 350 ft lbs at 3000 RPM vs 4000 RPM? Aren't the stresses the same? Or is it that the combustion expansion happens at the same speed, so if the piston doesn't move "out of the way" then it experiences a spikier load at low RPM than high RPM (even if the average load is the same)?

Ideally I'd like to run 350-375 ft lbs to the wheels at 3000, tapering down to 300 at 4000 RPM (due to competition rules), but I'm not sure if the motor will hold up (all I have are ARP rod bolts, catless downpipe, and 100 octane fuel). Is that achievable or do I really need aftermarket rods/pistons?

So generally speaking, higher boost in lower rpm results in a higher TQ output than at higher rpms due to the stroke, bore and crankshaft offset of the N20. Moving the peak TQ curve further up the rpm band is ideal as the reciprocating forces of the rods at higher rpm help reduce the tensile forces on the rods. Realistically you will be looking at peak torque on a stock n20 turbo to be around 3250-3500 rpm. From the math we've crunched you don't want to exceed 550nm at the crank from 3000 - 4500 rpm. Really the max boost you can run on a stock turbo is about 23.4psi which is around 260 load at 3000 rpm however at this boost you need to look at a form of ethanol mixes. Due to knock on 93 for that boost. E30 would be ideal. You have those rod bolts so you could push TQ alittle more but its not documented what the max TQ those bolts allow you to run. You could get away with 23psi around 2850 rpm but its a huge risk of throwing a rod out of the block. My advice regarding stock turbo bring your max boost of 23psi on a e30 or e15 mix (HPFP will limit how much ethanol you can run on that boost). The best way to think of all this is the more momentum a rotating object has the easier it is for it to push the crankshaft down, more momentum = easier go at producing the tq you need without snapping a rod. These motors aren't a diesel you won't see heaps of TQ from 1500-3000 when tuned.

Hopefully this answers your question.
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      10-27-2020, 05:10 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Thanks for the response !! How much horsepower can the stock fuel system support ??
On 93 (98RON) you're looking around the 410-420 crank HP mark (based on the low reading dyno dynamics) roughly if your turbo flows 41 - 42 lbs/min of air that's the max you could flow before the HPFP crashes, on e40 the max you can run is around 31-32lbs a min max anything higher especially in the 3000 - 4000 rpm range and the hpfp struggles.

In a more simplified approach.
Stock turbo e40 @ 23psi from 3000 rpm that is the max ethanol the hpfp can support, stage 1 and 2 turbos cause the hpfp to struggle on e30.
Currently there is no off the shelf turbo that can max the hpfp out on 93 (98 ron)

Hope this helps.
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      10-31-2020, 10:43 AM   #131
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Hey Navardi how much hp does the mambatek turbo supports.

Last edited by Kel918; 10-31-2020 at 04:44 PM..
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      11-01-2020, 05:23 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Hey Navardi how much hp does the mambatek turbo supports.
Best you'll see on any stage 2 turbo (mambatek included) is around 360 - 380 HP at the crank on 93 (98 RON) based on a low reading dyno, on a Dynojet this most likely will end up being 360-380whp. IMO Dynojet isn't as accurate as a lower reading Dyno (such as a dyno Dynamics) however bottom line is stage 2 Turbos flow at max 36-38LB/s min max airflow around 24 - 25 PSI at about 5700 RPM. Even though these turbos can happily Run 24-25 PSI until 7000 RPM, due to the Small A/R of the N20 turbine Housing (0.41 A/R) you won't see peak HP above 5700 - 6000 RPM, and increasing the boost past 25PSI in the higher rpm range causes pre-ignition and knock etc on 93 (98 RON), on E85 you could run 26 PSI in that higher RPM range, but due to the Compressor maps on these turbo's you will not see any benefit at all running more than 25 PSI. I will also add that, the Max safe boost based on the RPM to prevent breaking rods regardless of fuel should look something like this.
2500 - 3000 RPM = 18-20 PSI
3000 - 4000 RPM = 23 PSI
4000 - 4500 RPM = 24 PSI
4500 - 7000 RPM = 25 PSI

Peak VE / HP around 5700 - 6000 RPM.

Because these Stage 2 turbos have a small A/R the back pressure at the Volutes (the scrolls on the turbine housing) is over double the manifold pressure, i.e 25PSI in the manifold is about 60ish PSI of back pressure at the Volutes which adds alot of stress on the exhaust valves. I suggest you have a google on turbine housing A/R and back pressure and the negatives of small A/R when making big power.

Really to make more power and reduce back pressure and flow more air etc. you need to get a bigger turbo, Bigger turbine wheels help, but A/R of the Turbine housing makes the largest change to making more power, and in our case our Stage 2 off the shelf turbos compressor wheels are able to flow close to 42-45lbs a min (which generally translates to 420 - 450HP at the crank on standard gasoline), but the turbine housing is our choke point.


Hence my attempts with SPA and other providers to now develop off the shelf External Turbo manifolds since in all honesty we should be right to hit between 400 - 500 WHP on the stock motor before we run into issues, as per my other post generally a larger turbo flows more air at a lower boost pressure and generally speaking Boost = TQ and Airflow = HP. Then a compressor map shows you the correlation between these 2 attributes for a given Turbo configuration.
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