[lixiang7349]

Guys,
Please chime in with some good input here.
I'm currently running TU HPFP, 200 cel DP, E50 custom tune, stock turbo.
I wonder what the best route is going forward with a pure800 upgrade. Shooting for 700 ish.

Since fueling is the bottleneck with just a TU, there appear to be 2 good routes in front of me. (BTW I'm not interested in adding meth in either route. I'll of course do all the right things like getting forged internals and building trans etc. to go with either.)

1. add PI and run full E85. What I like about this one is that it gives the most HP. What I don't like is the range. I'm already averaging 14 MPG currently, I can easily get that down to single digit. And with a whopping 13.7 gal tank on my 240i, I'll get less than 137 mile range. And we all know E85 stations are rarer than Tesla super chargers.

So since I've only seen PI paired with E85 but does it make sense to pair E50 with PI to get more MPG? If so, how does it compare to the route below?

(range-topic: I've seen ppl using the space under the trunk to store meth/water but is it feasible to use that space to extend my main tank in an elegant/safe way?)


2. Swap TU for DE2 and run E50. The benefit of this would be better MPG than E85 PI, easier bolt on installation but I think I may give up a bit horsepower.

Let's hear your ideas!

[Devil doc]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

Guys,
Please chime in with some good input here.
I'm currently running TU HPFP, 200 cel DP, E50 custom tune, stock turbo.
I wonder what the best route is going forward with a pure800 upgrade.

Since fueling is the bottleneck with just a TU, there appear to be 2 good routes in front of me. (BTW I'm not interested in adding meth in either route. I'll of course do all the right things like getting forged internals and building trans etc. to go with either.)

1. add PI and run full E85. What I like about this one is that it gives the most HP. What I don't like is the range. I'm already averaging 14 MPG currently, I can easily get that down to single digit. And with a whopping 13.7 gal tank on my 240i, I'll get less than 137 mile range. And we all know E85 stations are rarer than Tesla super chargers.

So since I've only seen PI paired with E85 but does it make sense to pair E50 with PI to get more MPG? If so, how does it compare to the route below?

(range-topic: I've seen ppl using the space under the trunk to store meth/water but is it feasible to use that space to extend my main tank in an elegant/safe way?)


2. Swap TU for DE2 and run E50. The benefit of this would be better MPG than E85 PI, easier bolt on installation but I think I may give up a bit horsepower.

Let's hear your ideas!

How much power did you put down on the E50 map, and many psi did the TU support with the pure? Thanks

I’m sort of in the same dilemma but I am leaning towards a larger hpfp over the port injection for the sake of simplicity

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by Devil doc

How much did you put down on the E50 map?

I'm sort of in the same dilemma but I am leaning towards a larger hpfp over the port injection for the sake of simplicity

Don't know. Never dynoed. Guessing 490.

[G.Newt]

I'd probably start with building your motor.

[Glemm1970]

The most practical setting is Dorch 2. 2 nozzles for WMI. With regular gasoline 98 / 100Ron this will give 580whp on Pure800. If you pour E30 / 40 into the tank, then it will already be 650whp. Do not need anymore. The HP50 suffers in 6th gear after 550whp.

[kern417]

First of all, port injection doesn't require full E85. You can run whatever mix you want with whatever fuel upgrades you want. If you want to run less E with port injection to improve gas mileage, that works without an issue.

For 700whp, the Dorch will be right at it's limit. Port injection would be a better option to get you there easily. But if you can settle for 650whp or so, the dorch pump on an ethanol mix can get you there and will be a much simpler setup to install and tune compared to one with port injection.

Also consider that it will be a good time to build your transmission when shooting for that much power because it typically puts you over 650-700ftlbs and that's when a lot of people experience slipping trans.

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by kern417

First of all, port injection doesn't require full E85. You can run whatever mix you want with whatever fuel upgrades you want. If you want to run less E with port injection to improve gas mileage, that works without an issue.

For 700whp, the Dorch will be right at it's limit. Port injection would be a better option to get you there easily. But if you can settle for 650whp or so, the dorch pump on an ethanol mix can get you there and will be a much simpler setup to install and tune compared to one with port injection.

Also consider that it will be a good time to build your transmission when shooting for that much power because it typically puts you over 650-700ftlbs and that's when a lot of people experience slipping trans.

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for your reply.

I'm wasn't thinking that I might get thrown in jail just because I opted for something that barely makes engineering sense.
Let's say I get pure and compare PI vs DE2 limits for different E mixes.....

Consider the following possible scenarios:
E85: PI limit is 30% more than DE2 limit
E10: PI limit is 5% more than DE2 limit
E50: PI limit is (5%, 30%) more than DE2 limit (depending on the extrapolation model)


Those are all made up numbers just to illustrate a point. I don't know where E50 land in (5%, 30%). Nor is 5%/30% necessarily true for E10/E85.

If PI E50 limit is 27% more than DE2, it may be worth the trouble of going thru the harder setup over DE2.
If PI E50 limit is 8% more than DE2, it may not be.

It's not about what I can do, it's about what makes the most sense for me to do.

[blacksapphire440i]

I was thinking of getting pure800s in the future to have a more reliable and more capable turbo in the long run with an E30 mix. Would I need to get a "stage" upgrade for my transmission or would I be able to run it w/ xHP until I can purchase a "stage" upgrade for the ZF8 speed

[kern417]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for your reply.

I'm wasn't thinking that I might get thrown in jail just because I opted for something that barely makes engineering sense.
Let's say I get pure and compare PI vs DE2 limits for different E mixes.....

Consider the following possible scenarios:
E85: PI limit is 30% more than DE2 limit
E10: PI limit is 5% more than DE2 limit
E50: PI limit is (5%, 30%) more than DE2 limit (depending on the extrapolation model)


Those are all made up numbers just to illustrate a point. I don't know where E50 land in (5%, 30%). Nor is 5%/30% necessarily true for E10/E85.

If PI E50 limit is 27% more than DE2, it may be worth the trouble of going thru the harder setup over DE2.
If PI E50 limit is 8% more than DE2, it may not be.

It's not about what I can do, it's about what makes the most sense for me to do.

The problem is it's not a simple math ratio. You might be able to calculate the increased flow, but every tuner will run different AFRs, boost, timing, etc even if running the same fuel. Not to mention there are multiple injector options. So the power gains aren't directly related.

But like I said, if you're dead set on 700whp then don't lean on a dorch pump to get you there. You'll need PI regardless.

[B58togo]

Wow, 14 mpg? I’m getting 20 and I don’t exactly have a light foot.

[lixiang7349]

Spool FX-180 Upgraded High Pressure Pump [B58]

I just noticed that spool has even more capacity over de2. 1.7 vs 1.6.

How are people's experience with it? Mostly positive?

This may be inching closer to what pi can do?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

Spool FX-180 Upgraded High Pressure Pump [B58]

I just noticed that spool has even more capacity over de2. 1.7 vs 1.6.

How are people's experience with it? Mostly positive?

This may be inching closer to what pi can do?

PI will always have more headroom. A DI only system cannot achieve what PI can do.

[Solid67]

This is gonna be a slightly off topic question but has anyone ran port injection/injectors to spray meth?

[Devil doc]

Originally Posted by Solid67

This is gonna be a slightly off topic question but has anyone ran port injection/injectors to spray meth?

I was wondering the same, or if there’s an adapter to retrofit the meth nozzle into the injector hole.

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by Solid67

This is gonna be a slightly off topic question but has anyone ran port injection/injectors to spray meth?

Run*

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Solid67

This is gonna be a slightly off topic question but has anyone ran port injection/injectors to spray meth?

https://williamsperformance.co.uk/pr...47de313e&_ss=r

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by kern417

https://williamsperformance.co.uk/pr...313e&_ss=r

Why would anyone do this? Is pi meth more efficient than pi e85?

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by kern417

https://williamsperformance.co.uk/pr...47de313e&_ss=r

Arent they using meth bungs with that? Just wondering what advantage using injectors would be or sticking with the meth bungs.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

Why would anyone do this? Is pi meth more efficient than pi e85?

- a lot of people don't have E85 readily available
- meth is higher octane
- meth has better cooling properties
- no concerns with calculating a mix, reduced MPGs, etc

Originally Posted by Solid67

Arent they using meth bungs with that? Just wondering what advantage using injectors would be or sticking with the meth bungs.

the primary benefit of injectors with a proper controller is only spraying when the valves are open. typically when people add these garden hoses to their engines, they begin shooting big fireballs because the batch firing releases fuel/meth even when the cylinder isn't having a combustion cycle, so when you close the throttle the last bit comes out of the exhaust in an (albeit, cool looking) fireball. but that can also make fuel mapping difficult and reduces fuel efficiency.

the primary benefit of a meth nozzle is you're not relying on an actuator that can fail, get stuck open, etc.

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by kern417

- a lot of people don't have E85 readily available
- meth is higher octane
- meth has better cooling properties
- no concerns with calculating a mix, reduced MPGs, etc




the primary benefit of injectors with a proper controller is only spraying when the valves are open. typically when people add these garden hoses to their engines, they begin shooting big fireballs because the batch firing releases fuel/meth even when the cylinder isn't having a combustion cycle, so when you close the throttle the last bit comes out of the exhaust in an (albeit, cool looking) fireball. but that can also make fuel mapping difficult and reduces fuel efficiency.

the primary benefit of a meth nozzle is you're not relying on an actuator that can fail, get stuck open, etc.

i'm glad solid67 asked. Now this sound like a good option for me. It gives me additional fuel, range and cooling.
since it's port injected, i'd guess it'll be injecting 100% meth vs 50/50 mixed with water?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by lixiang7349

i'm glad solid67 asked. Now this sound like a good option for me. It gives me additional fuel, range and cooling.
since it's port injected, i'd guess it'll be injecting 100% meth vs 50/50 mixed with water?

It can inject whatever you want. Most people either use M1 (methanol) or Ignite (Ethanol).

[lixiang7349]

Originally Posted by kern417

It can inject whatever you want. Most people either use M1 (methanol) or Ignite (Ethanol).

Going this route would require building both transmission and engine internals (when tuned to full potential) right? This sounds beefier than pi full e85.