[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

It's better than pointless hope and optimism and talking about options that aren't even available.

Press reset and start again? Do we just assume that the EU are lying and they'll do that for us?

Talking of ignoring the electorate, didn't we vote to leave the EU, which includes the economic benefits? Are you just assuming everyone meant, well, we didn't mean totally leave, just leave a little bit.

People voted for a theory, a principle, as you've demonstrated yourself. The reality seems like it may be somewhat different.

A complicated scenario decided by a binary vote. What could go wrong? Well, now we know, everything can go wrong and it can pretty much destroy our democracy!

Do we know what options were available? were you in those meetings? we had a remain PM who may have dismissed certain options at the outset, and tried to get to a leave that isnt really leaving option.... I dont know, I doubt you do either...

As for what we voted for, I am sure some voted for no political union, some voted to bar free movement of labour, some voted to piss the govt off. The problem is we are where we are. We have had general elections where the winning majority govt has had less than 50% of a much smaller turnout and we just have to go with what they say - it could happen soon and we could have the destruction that is Corbyn in charge....

I look at it like taking a journey. The driver has come up against a road closed sign and despite several attempts to get past the closure signs, we are still stuck. We seemingly have two options, go home or find a new route around the closure.

I think we have to explore the former before we decide the latter is the only option.

You it seems didnt ever want to go on the journey so are happy to give up now. That's fine. Different strokes and all that. I just think if we give up and go home straight away, the kids in the back will be whining that they didnt get what they were promised for weeks and weeks and it will make life pretty unbearable for a good while. So at least give it another go with a very different approach. We are in no hurry....

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Do we know what options were available? were you in those meetings? we had a remain PM who may have dismissed certain options at the outset, and tried to get to a leave that isnt really leaving option.... I dont know, I doubt you do either...

As for what we voted for, I am sure some voted for no political union, some voted to bar free movement of labour, some voted to piss the govt off. The problem is we are where we are. We have had general elections where the winning majority govt has had less than 50% of a much smaller turnout and we just have to go with what they say - it could happen soon and we could have the destruction that is Corbyn in charge....

I look at it like taking a journey. The driver has come up against a road closed sign and despite several attempts to get past the closure signs, we are still stuck. We seemingly have two options, go home or find a new route around the closure.

I think we have to explore the former before we decide the latter is the only option.

You it seems didnt ever want to go on the journey so are happy to give up now. That's fine. Different strokes and all that. I just think if we give up and go home straight away, the kids in the back will be whining that they didnt get what they were promised for weeks and weeks and it will make life pretty unbearable for a good while. So at least give it another go with a very different approach. We are in no hurry....

Again, all excellent, but it isn't happening. Ministers are resigning because we're not in meaningful discussions with the EU.

The EU don't want to be, and neither does it appear, do our current cabinet.

And you must be kidding if you think that better options were offered and we turned them down! No one would do that, and if we had, the EU would be shouting from the rooftops about it.

If you want someone to press the reset button, maybe you could find it for them, because it seems unavailable to our politicians.

It's like your account has been hacked by Lobb, our politicians have been at this for years, yet you think there's some hidden miracle solution just waiting to be discovered at the very last minute. It beggars belief.

[DB118D]

Any talk of a "new" deal is just waffle

The EU aren't interested. They've held steadfast on that point and have never looked like caving.

I have no idea what the solution is, bar cancel the whole thing and sack Boris, but neither seem likely

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Again, all excellent, but it isn't happening. Ministers are resigning because we're not in meaningful discussions with the EU.

The EU don't want to be, and neither does it appear, do our current cabinet.

And you must be kidding if you think that better options were offered and we turned them down! No one would do that, and if we had, the EU would be shouting from the rooftops about it.

If you want someone to press the reset button, maybe you could find it for them, because it seems unavailable to our politicians.

It's like your account has been hacked by Lobb, our politicians have been at this for years, yet you think there's some hidden miracle solution just waiting to be discovered at the very last minute. It beggars belief.

And there you go, perfect for the old adage about listening and not hearing.

What we are doing isnt working. Options... give in (and go against the electorate - what does that say?) or try something else (is there anything - who knows, but its one of only a few options).

Given I believe in the fact that we gave the referendum, we have gone this far so saying "its a bit too hard, so we let the EU win" (remembering of course that they really dont want anyone to leave their club as it might start a few others thinking that its the way forward..) is not an appropriate way to bring it to a conclusion. You differ. That's your option. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT...

now have a lie down to recover from fact that someone may legitimately have a different view on something from you...

[JD6]

Originally Posted by DB118D

Any talk of a "new" deal is just waffle

The EU aren't interested. They've held steadfast on that point and have never looked like caving.

I have no idea what the solution is, bar cancel the whole thing and sack Boris, but neither seem likely

I think the new deal will look rather like (exactly like) the old one, except that the backstop will only apply to Northern Ireland. The EU already offered this early in the negotiations, but at the time the Tories depended on the 10 DUP MPs to have an effective majority, so rejected the offer

Now the 10 DUP MPs aren't sufficient to command a majority, so they need Labour votes. The DUP will undoubtedly kick and scream a bit, as it puts a potential border in the Irish Sea if the backstop is needed, but given that they have been supporting the Tories and thereby facilitating Brexit, I don't have too much sympathy.

Perhaps this terrible deal will actually get through as an act of desperation. Labour can't afford to have another election before Brexit is decided as their ambiguous position will probably crucify them!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

And there you go, perfect for the old adage about listening and not hearing.

What we are doing isnt working. Options... give in (and go against the electorate - what does that say?) or try something else (is there anything - who knows, but its one of only a few options).

Given I believe in the fact that we gave the referendum, we have gone this far so saying "its a bit too hard, so we let the EU win" (remembering of course that they really dont want anyone to leave their club as it might start a few others thinking that its the way forward..) is not an appropriate way to bring it to a conclusion. You differ. That's your option. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT...

now have a lie down to recover from fact that someone may legitimately have a different view on something from you...

I haven't said that we should go back since this conversation started yesterday, talking of not listening.

I have said that there aren't miracle alternatives just sat waiting to be discovered. So Leave supporters need to suck it up, either accept that the deal we've got is very close to as good as we're going to get, or we get no deal at all. They're the options available.

Sitting there there in hope that something better is going to miraculously materialise is astonishing at this late stage, seeing what we've already seen.

I admire the optmism. It's like being in a car at 100mph 2 metres from a brick wall and still thinking you're going to be able to stop.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

And there you go, perfect for the old adage about listening and not hearing.

What we are doing isnt working. Options... give in (and go against the electorate - what does that say?) or try something else (is there anything - who knows, but its one of only a few options).

Given I believe in the fact that we gave the referendum, we have gone this far so saying "its a bit too hard, so we let the EU win" (remembering of course that they really dont want anyone to leave their club as it might start a few others thinking that its the way forward..) is not an appropriate way to bring it to a conclusion. You differ. That's your option. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT...

now have a lie down to recover from fact that someone may legitimately have a different view on something from you...

I get where you're coming from but personally I think the only deal that's going to be on offer from the EU prior to the 31st October is the current Withdrawal Agreement or something very close to it; however, that's been rejected three times by our Parliament and I'm not convinced there would be any appetite to approve it now. If there was it would probably be just a belated attempt by MP's to show they'd honoured the referendum result prior to a GE but I suspect people would see through that; the reality is the WA is Brexit in name only - and far worse than remaining - and I can't imagine many who voted Leave envisaged or intended that as the outcome!

Whether a better arrangement than the WA would have been available had we approached negotiations differently we'll never know. Personally I think we've played the hand we had very badly but there are others who think it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference and the result would have been exactly the same regardless. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's irrelevant now as we are where we are.

So, as I've said before, for me the only realistic options now are leave with no deal or revoke A50 and remain. The former is obviously the only one that respects the outcome of the referendum but as Parliament has taken it off the table we'll have to see what the result of the forthcoming GE brings; if a Tory/Brexit Party coalition are in the majority then no deal is potentially back on the table but if a pro-Remain government is returned it will be the end of Brexit in my view...

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I get where you're coming from but personally I think the only deal that's going to be on offer from the EU prior to the 31st October is the current Withdrawal Agreement or something very close to it; however, that's been rejected three times by our Parliament and I'm not convinced there would be any appetite to approve it now. If there was it would probably be just a belated attempt by MP's to show they'd honoured the referendum result prior to a GE but I suspect people would see through that; the reality is the WA is Brexit in name only - and far worse than remaining - and I can't imagine many who voted Leave envisaged or intended that as the outcome!

Whether a better arrangement than the WA would have been available had we approached negotiations differently we'll never know. Personally I think we've played the hand we had very badly but there are others who think it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference and the result would have been exactly the same regardless. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's irrelevant now as we are where we are.

So, as I've said before, for me the only realistic options now are leave with no deal or revoke A50 and remain. The former is obviously the only one that respects the outcome of the referendum but as Parliament has taken it off the table we'll have to see what the result of the forthcoming GE brings; if a Tory/Brexit Party coalition are in the majority then no deal is potentially back on the table but if a pro-Remain government is returned it will be the end of Brexit in my view...

I'd agree with all of that - except the next steps....but I do agree the way we have played it may have backed us into a corner we cant escape from. None the less, time for an attempt, with the GE as the support.

But I do believe that we will end up not leaving. That's fine, as long as we can sell it as being the will of the people and not the fuck up and easy solution for the politicians....

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

But I do believe that we will end up not leaving. That's fine, as long as we can sell it as being the will of the people and not the fuck up and easy solution for the politicians....

The day after the referendum I said I'd only believe Brexit when it actually happened and I'm still of that view!

As I've said before, I think the forthcoming GE will in effect be a proxy for a further referendum and, unless the Conservatives - perhaps in coalition with TBP - are returned to power I think Brexit is dead in the water. A pro-Remain government will probably offer us a choice between a truly awful deal based on the existing WA or remaining and given those options I think few if any would choose the former - even as someone who voted Leave in 2016 I certainly wouldn't.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

The day after the referendum I said I'd only believe Brexit when it actually happened and I'm still of that view!

As I've said before, I think the forthcoming GE will in effect be a proxy for a further referendum and, unless the Conservatives - perhaps in coalition with TBP - are returned to power I think Brexit is dead in the water. A pro-Remain government will probably offer us a choice between a truly awful deal based on the existing WA or remaining and given those options I think few if any would choose the former - even as someone who voted Leave in 2016 I certainly wouldn't.

You don't sound like the typical Leaver - you know how to read and write for a start...

I think that the debate has become so polarised with entrenched positions, that I suspect most Leavers would still vote Leave as a matter of principle, irrespective of how bad the deal is.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

You don't sound like the typical Leaver - you know how to read and write for a start...

Originally Posted by JD6

I think that the debate has become so polarised with entrenched positions, that I suspect most Leavers would still vote Leave as a matter of principle, irrespective of how bad the deal is.

You might be right but the current WA represents an almost total capitulation and would result, amongst other things, in us being tied to the EU as rule takers with no means of escape if the current backstop remains. You're better staying in the club influencing the rules rather than accepting that....

[isleaiw1]

But imagine ifthe optionis a leave backing Tory candidate or a remain backing Labour candidate - no deal would be bad perhaps but not as bad as Corbyn...

And if Labour and Lib Dems both back remain and split the vote we could get 60% voting temain and ghe tories being the biggest party and promoting leave...

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by JNW1

You might be right but the current WA represents an almost total capitulation and would result, amongst other things, in us being tied to the EU as rule takers with no means of escape if the current backstop remains. You're better staying in the club influencing the rules rather than accepting that....

Judging by some of the leaver comments I've seen on some forums, I think that concept may be a little difficult to grasp.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

You might be right but the current WA represents an almost total capitulation and would result, amongst other things, in us being tied to the EU as rule takers with no means of escape if the current backstop remains. You're better staying in the club influencing the rules rather than accepting that....

I agree completely that May's WA makes no sense at all - we are significantly more constrained than if we remain, since with remain, we have a way out with Article 50. It really isn't 'taking back control', it's just taking away our influence for virtually no benefit.

I suspect that the WA with a Northern Ireland only backstop may be the last throw of the Brexit dice, now that the DUP no longer hold the balance of power, accompanied by some warm (but hollow) words about no border in the Irish Sea. That does at least allow the rUK to escape at will, even if it means severing Northern Ireland from the UK.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Bryans69

Judging by some of the leaver comments I've seen on some forums, I think that concept may be a little difficult to grasp.

You might be right but I'd have thought Brexit in name only is a concept most leavers would be able to grasp and wouldn't be particularly happy with! I actually think a lot of leavers would opt for a no deal Brexit in preference to the existing WA but that option's not on the table at the moment and won't be unless Boris is returned to power at the GE (which, despite what some opinion polls suggest, isn't especially likely in my view).

[GBR1]

I still don’t see how a GE will solve this, People vote in a GE for many reasons, their policies etc on climate change, health care etc etc, not just about Brexit.

Also people speak of clearing out the current set of positions and replacing them with new, bar a few new Brexit MP’s (anyone ever heard of a single policy from them other than no deal?) a majority of positions will remain the same.

I think a GE will get really messy, for a start you have Boris pushing no deal (albeit him saying he wants a deal but no signs of negotiating one), I very much doubt there is really a majority of conservative MP’s thinking this is a great idea and campaigning on it.

Labour MP’s hardly know what day of the week it is, let alone want Corbyn wants, I am not sure he knows either! So many mixed and confused messages from them, I think Lib Dem’s will be bigger than Labour at the end of this GE, simply because they have been decisive from the start and have a clear message.

Anyone who wants to remain votes for Green or Lib Dem’s ! (In England)
Leave with no deal is Brexit party or Conservative
Leave with a deal, Conservative (maybe) labour (maybe)

It’s a mess which I don’t think a GE will solve..

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by GBR1

I still don’t see how a GE will solve this, People vote in a GE for many reasons, their policies etc on climate change, health care etc etc, not just about Brexit.

Also people speak of clearing out the current set of positions and replacing them with new, bar a few new Brexit MP’s (anyone ever heard of a single policy from them other than no deal?) a majority of positions will remain the same.

I think a GE will get really messy, for a start you have Boris pushing no deal (albeit him saying he wants a deal but no signs of negotiating one), I very much doubt there is really a majority of conservative MP’s thinking this is a great idea and campaigning on it.

Labour MP’s hardly know what day of the week it is, let alone want Corbyn wants, I am not sure he knows either! So many mixed and confused messages from them, I think Lib Dem’s will be bigger than Labour at the end of this GE, simply because they have been decisive from the start and have a clear message.

Anyone who wants to remain votes for Green or Lib Dem’s ! (In England)
Leave with no deal is Brexit party or Conservative
Leave with a deal, Conservative (maybe) labour (maybe)

It’s a mess which I don’t think a GE will solve..

Normally I'd agree a GE is decided on a range of issues but we're not in normal times at the moment and given the way Brexit has largely dominated UK politics for the last 3 years - and especially the last few months - I'd argue an election would pretty much become a proxy for another referendum.

That being the case I think the choices are probably more simple than you suggest. If you want to leave the EU you need to vote for either the Conservatives or The Brexit Party - and accept leaving may well involve doing so without a deal - but if you want to remain you need to vote for one of the alternatives. Although they haven't entirely got off the fence it's becoming increasingly clear that Labour's moving towards a remain position so little or no chance we'd leave the EU with them in power IMO.

[MashinBenzin]

Instead of an election as a proxy for a referendum, let's have another referendum and then a GE on real non- Brexit issues.

[TodmordenLad]

Have just watched a clip of Johnson's visit to Doncaster. May was poor with the general public but this is something else. It's amazing to witness how inept he is outside of his tiny comfort zone. Unable to relate to or empathise with the woman he was talking to at any level - and she wasn't even being difficult.
This man is the PM of the sixth largest economy in the world. It is simply staggering.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Instead of an election as a proxy for a referendum, let's have another referendum and then a GE on real non- Brexit issues.

For god's sake no! All another referendum will do is show how divided the country still is and probably deepen those divisions even further; moreover, it would no doubt take months to organise (so the uncertainly continues) and in the meantime we don't have a government that's able to govern (and that's simply not sustainable for months IMO).

Therefore, personally I think we need a GE - and soon - to try to sort out the immediate impasse in Parliament and to me that could also go long way to helping to sort Brexit as well if the different political parties make it clear where they stand in their respective manifestos (which I think they will). I'm not at all keen on another referendum but if we are to have one a GE needs to come first in my view.

[GBR1]

Originally Posted by JNW1

For god's sake no! All another referendum will do is show how divided the country still is and probably deepen those divisions even further; moreover, it would no doubt take months to organise (so the uncertainly continues) and in the meantime we don't have a government that's able to govern (and that's simply not sustainable for months IMO).

Therefore, personally I think we need a GE - and soon - to try to sort out the immediate impasse in Parliament and to me that could also go long way to helping to sort Brexit as well if the different political parties make it clear where they stand in their respective manifestos (which I think they will). I'm not at all keen on another referendum but if we are to have one a GE needs to come first in my view.

Bingo, another referendum will show how divided the country is but by having a GE based solely on Brexit will show exactly the same result except there will be a power shift within parliament allowing Farage and his pals gain some voting power.

I think this will be at the expense of Corbyn but it’s like saying should you jump into the pit of cobras or the pit of scorpions, both shit options.

At least a referendum at this point won’t allow Farage into parliament and in theory if the result still is leave then all the “they were lied to and didn’t understand the consequences” argument goes out the window and shuts down many of the arguments which are causing the impasse in parliament.

Either way it’s a shit fight and nobody wins in a shit fight!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

For god's sake no! All another referendum will do is show how divided the country still is and probably deepen those divisions even further; moreover, it would no doubt take months to organise (so the uncertainly continues) and in the meantime we don't have a government that's able to govern (and that's simply not sustainable for months IMO).

Therefore, personally I think we need a GE - and soon - to try to sort out the immediate impasse in Parliament and to me that could also go long way to helping to sort Brexit as well if the different political parties make it clear where they stand in their respective manifestos (which I think they will). I'm not at all keen on another referendum but if we are to have one a GE needs to come first in my view.

I don't really understand. Your last post said that in these times a General Election would be based pretty much on Brexit anyway. If that's the case, surely a referendum to decide the outcome of Brexit is more appropriate than having a general election based on a single subject?