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      09-02-2019, 06:07 PM   #2333
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The range rover velar has a non leather suedecloth option. Still wouldn't get it over leather, but it is quite nice, much nicer than the tesla.
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      09-02-2019, 06:55 PM   #2334
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That'll surely please the 7 people who insist on a "vegan car interior." Seriously, give me a god damn break.
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      09-02-2019, 07:43 PM   #2335
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I don't know what the obsession is with leather seats in cars. I have only owned one car with leather seats, and that was only because that car year/model was not sold with cloth seats. I'll take my cow cooked medium on a plate with a baked potato please, and drive home in a car with cloth seats.

If anyone hasn't looked at BMW's EV lineup, the "Giga" world trim in North America (Lodge interior everywhere else) is half tan leather and half shredded coke bottles woven into a gray cloth. The leather was tanned using something crazy like olive leaf extract, to be environmentally friendly.....




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      09-02-2019, 08:31 PM   #2336
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Got cloth in my current car. Actually would prefer a quality cloth to anything short of a quality semi-aniline leather interior like BMW Nappa, and even then you're only getting Nappa quality on the seat tops and waxed, treated leather on the sides, dash, doors and console. Car leather is over rated.
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      09-03-2019, 11:57 AM   #2337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Cows used for hides are raised for that. They're treated much better than cows used for meat. So yes, less demand for hide cows does "save" animals.
At the beef farm down the street from me, the cows get roam around in the same scenic place I do...
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      09-03-2019, 12:01 PM   #2338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
I don't know what the obsession is with leather seats in cars. I have only owned one car with leather seats, and that was only because that car year/model was not sold with cloth seats. I'll take my cow cooked medium on a plate with a baked potato please, and drive home in a car with cloth seats.

If anyone hasn't looked at BMW's EV lineup, the "Giga" world trim in North America (Lodge interior everywhere else) is half tan leather and half shredded coke bottles woven into a gray cloth. The leather was tanned using something crazy like olive leaf extract, to be environmentally friendly.....



.

Because cloth is trash.

Leather cleans up easily.
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      09-03-2019, 12:57 PM   #2339
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I hate that "carbonstructure" textile crap they put in the F80/F82. It is gross especially when paired with those weird bamboo beach mat inspired floor mats.

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      09-03-2019, 02:48 PM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Machinebuilder View Post
Actually the lack of leather will be the mark of all modern cars in the future. Tesla is first in autos but the trend is to end the use of leather worldwide. The Leather industry is being replaced in numerous sectors.
I tend to agree with the trend away from leather, as long as there are functionally and aesthetically equivalent alternatives.
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      09-03-2019, 05:32 PM   #2341
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Sheesh; I grew up with vinyl seats (or MB-Tex if you’re into that brand) and sheepskin seat covers. They were great in winter, that being the era before heated seats. They breathed better than vinyl in summer but were still too warm. I liked cloth seats because they breathe so well but they also stain easily. Leather back in the day was a premium product that wore well and cleaned up well, but was functionally like vinyl (hot and stick to it). Now leather is often perforated, heated and ventilated (or even cooled), which is nice, but it also not dyed but painted instead and seems to be thin enough to wear fast, especially when I’m wearing denim.

I welcome the return of quality cloth seats, especially if heated and ventilated. I suspect the fabrics will be easier to clean that the real cloth of my youth. That and some coco mats, and I’m almost reliving my youth!
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      09-03-2019, 06:08 PM   #2342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Cows used for hides are raised for that. They're treated much better than cows used for meat. So yes, less demand for hide cows does "save" animals.
At the beef farm down the street from me, the cows get roam around in the same scenic place I do...
But are the fences nerf? Don't want a hide getting a large blemish.
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      09-03-2019, 06:28 PM   #2343
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Originally Posted by Machinebuilder View Post
Actually the lack of leather will be the mark of all modern cars in the future. Tesla is first in autos but the trend is to end the use of leather worldwide. The Leather industry is being replaced in numerous sectors.
MB has been pushing MBTex since at least the 80s. Very very few MB have leather, including GL/GLS. The only mainstream models where leather is common are G and S class.
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      09-03-2019, 06:44 PM   #2344
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True but doesn't make it any better. BMW's Dakota leather barely feels like like leather and more akin to leatherette. It is nuts that on MB unless you're breaking 90-100k you're not getting a real leather seat or in some cases a leather dashboard as an option.
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      09-04-2019, 08:40 AM   #2345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiceyxi View Post
When I was looking at a Model 3 the sales person referred to the interior as Vegan Leather. Not sure why, but that wording bothered me more than it should have. Plus, no leather in a luxury car just seems odd...
They coined that term exactly for people like you, who equate leather with luxury.
So, you've got leather... it's vegan.
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      09-04-2019, 10:02 PM   #2346
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
True but doesn't make it any better. BMW's Dakota leather barely feels like like leather and more akin to leatherette. It is nuts that on MB unless you're breaking 90-100k you're not getting a real leather seat or in some cases a leather dashboard as an option.
It's mind-blowing to think that you could almost buy a cow for the price of 'upgrading' to Dakota leather.
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      09-05-2019, 07:27 AM   #2347
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Hahaha... I had it in one of the BMW I owned a while back and will never have it again. Nappa or Merino here on out but still curious to know what the difference was between Dakota and Nevada leather.
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      09-06-2019, 02:28 AM   #2348
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but still curious to know what the difference was between Dakota and Nevada leather.
Farmed about 1300 miles apart.
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      09-06-2019, 05:00 AM   #2349
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Yeah the Dakota leather in my F20 125i was very disappointing, not even close to the Novillo in my E90 M3, nor what was in my E46 M3.
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      09-06-2019, 05:41 AM   #2350
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Originally Posted by AlpineX View Post
Farmed about 1300 miles apart.
I thought that the difference was in which side the jockey whipped it during its last race.....
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      09-06-2019, 05:57 AM   #2351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
I hate that "carbonstructure" textile crap they put in the F80/F82. It is gross especially when paired with those weird bamboo beach mat inspired floor mats.

Looks like hockey sticks to me
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      09-06-2019, 10:32 AM   #2352
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NTSB Report Prompts Push For Recall Of Tesla Cars:
https://www.law360.com/transportatio...-of-tesla-cars


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJBO View Post
Yeah the Dakota leather in my F20 125i was very disappointing, not even close to the Novillo in my E90 M3, nor what was in my E46 M3.
I love the leather and smell a new E46 M3 had. It was a mix of leather, vanilla and Play-Doh. When I sold my '06 ZCP it only had 9k miles on it and almost every person got in was shocked that it was 12 years old but still smelled like day one. One of the only cars I regret selling.
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      09-06-2019, 02:00 PM   #2353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
I don't know what the obsession is with leather seats in cars. I have only owned one car with leather seats, and that was only because that car year/model was not sold with cloth seats. I'll take my cow cooked medium on a plate with a baked potato please, and drive home in a car with cloth seats.

If anyone hasn't looked at BMW's EV lineup, the "Giga" world trim in North America (Lodge interior everywhere else) is half tan leather and half shredded coke bottles woven into a gray cloth. The leather was tanned using something crazy like olive leaf extract, to be environmentally friendly.....




.
Giga World is the best interior material I have ever owned. In second is the carbonstructure interior in my F80 M3. I prefer it over my leather interior M3 CS and as "luxurious" as it is and as nice as it feels, I'm still a high quality cloth guy. It stays cooler, it's more comfortable, and it's gripper for track duty.

I had Giga World on my 2015 i3 and I skipped it for my 2018 i3, but I missed it so much I've just ordered a 2019 i3 with Giga again. The mix of cloth and leather is perfect, both functional, cool, and attractive.
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      09-07-2019, 07:37 AM   #2354
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Interesting article on the Taycan vs Tesla

So this is written by David Booth, and electrical engineer and auto writer. He's been reviewing cars in Canada for over 30 years and has in the past shown a light on many of the short comings of EV's. He isn't anti-EV although sometimes it seems like it, but he does look at things with a critical eye. So this article may be just on point to the original theme of this thread.

https://driving.ca/porsche/taycan/fe...as-ev-hegemony


Motor Mouth: Will Porsche’s Taycan challenge Tesla’s EV hegemony?
Or are the brand’s fans just part of a cult that puts hero worship above good engineering?
by DAVID BOOTH | 22 HOURS AGO



It just debuted two days ago, but Porsche has already taken some 30,000 deposits for its new Taycan. Not exactly Tesla numbers, but impressive nonetheless. Closer to home, more than 1,000 Canadians have plunked down $2,500 hoping to secure one of the first electrified Porsche four-doors to hit the street. Again, neither number rivals the multitudes that offered up deposits on Tesla’s Model 3, but Taycan does play in an entirely different snack bracket.

A more appropriate context, then, might be to note that said deposits are roughly equal to the number of 911s that Porsche Canada sells in its best of years. In other words, September 4’s worldwide launch of the Taycan was a very good day at the office for Porsche Canada’s president and CEO, Marc Ouayoun.

Now, never mind that a few of those chomping at the bit may well be put off by the Taycan’s price — the base Turbo starts at $173,900 and the Turbo S is a wallet-stretching $213,900. If that means Porsche has finally brought profitability to the electric vehicle segment, so much the better.

More important is that the company is depending on the Taycan to be successful, Detlev von Platen, Porsche’s executive board member for sales and marketing, telling the launch event attendees the company will be investing over US$6 billion in battery power over the next few years and expects more than 50 per cent of the company’s cars to be electrified within the next decade. In other words, Porsche needs the Taycan to be successful.

And more important than that is that the automotive industry needs the Taycan to be successful. So far, the electric vehicle segment has been all Tesla, the Silicon Valley upstart the only truly successful purveyor of battery power. Yes, I know Nissan’s Leaf remains the best-selling EV of all time, but, while semi-plentiful, it’s actually selling well below – barely 10 per cent of initial projections – what was predicted when it was introduced ten years ago.

What the Tesla faithful don’t realize is their devotion is counter-productive to the propagation of EVs
Tesla, meanwhile, has become the poster child for planet-friendly motoring, Elon Musk’s decision – whether it was brilliant insight or bulls%^t luck really doesn’t matter – to focus on the luxury segment proving to be providential. Whither goes Tesla, it now seems, goes the entire electric vehicle industry.

The problem is that Mr. Musk’s influence – and the cult-like devotion it has engendered – is not good for anyone except Tesla shareholders.

Whether you’re a fan of long-range plug-ins or prefer fuel cells, it is not so much that Tesla is winning, but that Mr. Musk so dominates the conversation surrounding EVs that it stifles discussion into what a truly multi-platform zero-emissions future might look like.

Now, to be certain, the company and man – for they are one and the same – deserve all the accolades they have received for a) creating the luxury EV segment where none existed and b) legitimizing the concept of the battery-powered car in the eyes of a formerly skeptical audience. For that, Mr. Musk will undoubtedly be lauded in history books as the founder of a movement.

The problem is that said worship has gone too far, creating disciples for whom any dissent, any mention of competitive brands is seen as traitorous. In my 35 years in this biz, I have see nothing – not the Ford-versus-Chevy wars, not Jeep Wrangler aficionados, not even “one-per-centers” devoted to their Hogs – to match the cult-like allegiance Tesla enjoys amongst its minions.

Unfortunately, that deference is stifling competition. Despite the deception that traditional automakers are dragging their heels on electrification, nothing could be further from the truth. The problem they all face is that, any time they introduce a (costly-to-develop) EV, they are met with the mildest of “mehs.”

Initially, they were decried as too ugly (Chevy’s Bolt), too slow (the Kia Soul) or lacking in panache (pretty much everyone). But, then Jaguar came out with the I-Pace, offering both pedigree and panache. Yet they too were greeted with another giant yawn. Too slow, said the disciples, ignoring the fact there’s more to a sporty automobile than Ludicrous acceleration. So I-Pace sales have crashed. Audi’s e-tron? Better, but hardly all-conquering, especially considering that the Model X with which it competes is the weakest model in Tesla’s lineup.

And that’s why the Taycan is so important. It meets every single objection even the most devoted of Teslarati could dream up. Brand image? None is stronger than Porsche’s. Build quality? Ditto. Beauty? The Taycan is the four-door 911 that Porsche always promised the Panamera would be. Ludicrously fast? My Lord, yes. Toss in handling that is all but a match for the best of supercars and you have a car that is markedly superior to the Tesla Model S it ostensibly competes with.

Oh, the haters will no doubt point to its price as an objection, but the fact remains that, if the Taycan fails to become a genuine Tesla rival – if not in sales then at least in influence – then we really may have to come to grips with the possibility that what we have been projecting as an electrified future is really just cult worship writ especially large.

What the faithful don’t seem to realize is that that their devotion is counter-productive to the propagation of EVs they claim to promote. Think of what happens if the Taycan, superior in almost every way, fails. The immediate reaction would be Porsche’s reassessment of its US$6 billion investment in EVs. Ditto for the 80 billion Euros that parent Volkswagen has devoted to electric vehicles. Indeed, who amongst legacy automakers will be willing to shell out the big bucks EV protagonists demand they devote to electrification when they see that even clearly superior product gets steamrollered by the Tesla propaganda machine?

The complete routing of all possible competitors, which the Teslarati seems to be promoting, leads to one of only two scenarios: Either the failure of the electric vehicle revolution; or the complete domination of the luxury electric segment by Tesla. The first would not be good for the planet, the second, as the crap we drove in the ’70s when General Motors owned almost 50 per cent of the marketplace proves, not good for consumers.

So yes, Porsche needs the Taycan to be successful. Most important, however, is that the auto industry needs the Taycan to be successful. Otherwise, the entire EV market, certainly the luxury portion of it, threatens to become a cult devoted to one brand — and that’s not good for anyone except Mr. Musk.
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