[scotthilly]

Hi everyone,

I have a 2011 335i sedan with the sport pack, rwd, and a 6 speed, with 87k miles on it. I'm considering an F30 340i a stick & with similar options (though less miles), but would love to get people's feedback on the differences in the two.

I consider myself a fairly astute driver, and my favorite thing about the E90 is that I can feel the car rotate beautifully and I have perfect knowledge of when it's understeering, oversteering, and everything in between. The steering is a close second - so rich with feedback and information.

I don't mind the e90's ride (even with 18's), or the interior, but having new technology would be nice. My dad owned a 2017 340i M Sport and while I didn't love it at the time, I'm wondering if I'd appreciate it more now. I also drove a 2018 M240i manual recently but was actually pretty dissapointed. I felt the short wheelbase combined with lack of feel made it too snappy.

With that said, the e90 reliability (or lack thereof) does sort of stress me out and I'd like to have more tech and a more modern driving experience (things like auto rev matching appeal to me).

My friend has a G20 330i w/M Sport and I found the steering and chassis feel to be extremely lacking - if the f30 is like this, I don't want it. For me, feel > outright speed or handling ability.

I guess my question is - would love to hear people's thoughts on the F30 vs E90 vs G20 overall in chassis communication and overall fun, especially if you have experience in an F22 2 series as well. There's many threads on this but most are from when the F30 was new - so I think recency bias / new car thrill plays a role.

Please debate!

[tturedraider]

I’m probably not as tuned in to the high level driving dynamics as you are. But, after 11 1/2 years in a 2006 E90 330i sport pkg with the 18” 162 staggered setup I’m perfectly happy with the driving dynamics of my 2018 LCI 340i M Sport with the staggered setup. I’ve had both the 704M 19” wheels and the 18” 400M wheels and I like them both pretty equally. Be sure you don’t make your decision based on the comparison of an xDrive to your rwd, because the suspensions are not the same.

I absolutely do not like the steering on the G20 330i and because of that I would not even consider buying that car. The M340i steering is much better than the 330i M Sport pkg steering. For me the 330i steering is Buick-like regardless of what mode the car is in. I think the suspension on the G20 330i M Sport and the M340i are identical, so I’m a little surprised to hear you disliked it. As you may have seen I owned a 2020 M340i for about four months and I was not real pleased with the suspension, because I thought it was too firm and I found it jittery. That was in comparison to my sport suspension E90. Dynamically the G20 sport suspension has received quite a bit of favorable comparison to the E90 sport suspension. So, if you didn’t like it that raises some pretty big questions about how you would like living with the F30 sport suspension, because people definitely say it is softer/less dynamic than both the E90 and G20 sport suspensions.

In all honesty, I don’t notice a big difference between my LCI F30 sport suspension and my E90 sport suspension and, as I mentioned, I’m pretty fine with it.

The steering is another matter. I don’t mind the F30 steering in sport mode, but if comfort mode was the only option I would have a big problem. The electric power steering is definitely not the same as the hydraulic E90 power steering. I think the steering was an easier transition for me, because I had active steering on my E90. So I was used to the steering being lighter at lower speeds. My first F30 had the regular steering and I never had a problem with it. My current F30 has the variable sport steering, which is the “new” version of active steering, and when I first got the car I noticed the difference from my first F30 immediately. It only took a day or two to get used to it and now I rarely notice it. I do believe it requires slightly less effort than the standard steering and given the choice I would choose the standard steering. I did also notice the difference in the active steering on my E90 when I first drove it, but that only lasted about a day. Previously I had a 2004 E46 ZHP and a 2000 E46 328i.

Now, motor wise. I would choose the B58 over the N55 all day every day and twice on Sunday. It is easily one of the best motors, if not the best, BMW has ever produced.

I didn’t have iDrive in my E90 and I enjoy having it in my F30. I especially like Apple CarPlay and the navigation interface. And I’m an old fart, so I like having Sirius/XM and playing 70s music without commercials.

Was your dad’s 340i rwd or xDrive? I think you need to drive a rwd 340i M Sport again. Even if it is an automatic, just to assess how you feel about the suspension. If you want we might be able to work something out where you could drive mine.

[tturedraider]

If you could talk schernov down to a realistic price his car could be a good choice for you.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&highlight=Zhp

[schernov]

Hydraulic steering. Full stop. E90 will always feel better than F30. My wife drives a 2009 135i and I have 2018 340i with LSD. Driving then side by side is what highlights the difference.
Yes b58 is better than n54/n55
Both cars have big brakes.
Same tires. 18vs 19 in the summer.
Still if you want feel - e90. If you want newer everything - get f30 340i RWD 2018. It will have the most up to date idrive and ATM based remote services. Import one from Canada with Performance pack 1 and 2. Although most Canadian ones are awd.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I’m probably not as tuned in to the high level driving dynamics as you are. But, after 11 1/2 years in a 2006 E90 330i sport pkg with the 18” 162 staggered setup I’m perfectly happy with the driving dynamics of my 2018 LCI 340i M Sport with the staggered setup. I’ve had both the 704M 19” wheels and the 18” 400M wheels and I like them both pretty equally. Be sure you don’t make your decision based on the comparison of an xDrive to your rwd, because the suspensions are not the same.

I absolutely do not like the steering on the G20 330i and because of that I would not even consider buying that car. The M340i steering is much better than the 330i M Sport pkg steering. For me the 330i steering is Buick-like regardless of what mode the car is in. I think the suspension on the G20 330i M Sport and the M340i are identical, so I’m a little surprised to hear you disliked it. As you may have seen I owned a 2020 M340i for about four months and I was not real pleased with the suspension, because I thought it was too firm and I found it jittery. That was in comparison to my sport suspension E90. Dynamically the G20 sport suspension has received quite a bit of favorable comparison to the E90 sport suspension. So, if you didn’t like it that raises some pretty big questions about how you would like living with the F30 sport suspension, because people definitely say it is softer/less dynamic than both the E90 and G20 sport suspensions.

In all honesty, I don’t notice a big difference between my LCI F30 sport suspension and my E90 sport suspension and, as I mentioned, I’m pretty fine with it.

The steering is another matter. I don’t mind the F30 steering in sport mode, but if comfort mode was the only option I would have a big problem. The electric power steering is definitely not the same as the hydraulic E90 power steering. I think the steering was an easier transition for me, because I had active steering on my E90. So I was used to the steering being lighter at lower speeds. My first F30 had the regular steering and I never had a problem with it. My current F30 has the variable sport steering, which is the “new” version of active steering, and when I first got the car I noticed the difference from my first F30 immediately. It only took a day or two to get used to it and now I rarely notice it. I do believe it requires slightly less effort than the standard steering and given the choice I would choose the standard steering. I did also notice the difference in the active steering on my E90 when I first drove it, but that only lasted about a day. Previously I had a 2004 E46 ZHP and a 2000 E46 328i.

Now, motor wise. I would choose the B58 over the N55 all day every day and twice on Sunday. It is easily one of the best motors, if not the best, BMW has ever produced.

I didn’t have iDrive in my E90 and I enjoy having it in my F30. I especially like Apple CarPlay and the navigation interface. And I’m an old fart, so I like having Sirius/XM and playing 70s music without commercials.

Was your dad’s 340i rwd or xDrive? I think you need to drive a rwd 340i M Sport again. Even if it is an automatic, just to assess how you feel about the suspension. If you want we might be able to work something out where you could drive mine.

Thanks for the details!! Glad to hear it in depth, this is super helpful.

When I drove the M240 I found it to be super wobbly and didn't really like the adaptive setup; I wonder if the fixed 704 would be better but it's super hard to find manuals with it. My dad's 340 was 704 with RWD but again it was like 5 years and I wasn't even 20 at the time.

Would really enjoy the iDrive updates - considering dropping $1,200 for carplay and a backup cam which would maybe solve my issues.

I thought the B58 was laggy and didn't like the sound as much, but really love the power and reliability. Thanks so much man. Will follow up as more thoughts come to me, haha.

Do you feel the chassis rotates as well as the E90?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Thanks for the details!! Glad to hear it in depth, this is super helpful.

When I drove the M240 I found it to be super wobbly and didn't really like the adaptive setup; I wonder if the fixed 704 would be better but it's super hard to find manuals with it. My dad's 340 was 704 with RWD but again it was like 5 years and I wasn't even 20 at the time.

Would really enjoy the iDrive updates - considering dropping $1,200 for carplay and a backup cam which would maybe solve my issues.

I thought the B58 was laggy and didn't like the sound as much, but really love the power and reliability. Thanks so much man. Will follow up as more thoughts come to me, haha.

Do you feel the chassis rotates as well as the E90?

Just to confirm, my car has the static 704 suspension. So did the M340i that I owned, but it was an xDrive and I have this feeling that xDrive made the G20 704 suspension more rigid, but that’s just a feeling. I don’t think I can necessarily comment on how the chassis rotates with either the E90 or F30. I never tracked my E90 or even did an autocross in it and I haven’t in my F30 either. I can say I can’t tell any difference in my ability to take a tight exit ramp or on ramp at a speed a fair amount above the posted limit.

Since I have an automatic I guess I can’t comment on any laggyness of the motor. I think it’s pretty universal with BMW automatic transmissions that they have a little bit of a slow tip in. They don’t just surge with power the way some others do. You have to be a little intentional with your acceleration. But, the G20 B58/ZF8 is not like that. It doesn’t have the overly eager feeling a lot of cars do, but the tip in is immediate and super smooth!! That ZF transmission is as close to perfection in its tuning with the B58 as is humanly possible. That is the one mechanical thing I miss about the M340i. The B58/ZF8 combination in the F30 is very good, but it is not the virtual perfection the M340i has.

I like the sound of my B58 a lot. It would sound even better with the M exhaust or, even better than that, with the MPPSK!! That’s probably the very best thing about the ZHP, is the MPPSK and the LSD!!

[schernov]

340 with MPPsk is definitely no laggy.
Both of our cars are manuals. Both 704 suspension.
Awd can shovel better off the line.
You should drive e90 and f30 back to back.

Still nothing beats a non M z3 coupe with 3.0m54 for all around comfort and feel in all four seasons.

[Wires]

I had a 2008 335 with Dinan Stage 2, and swapped it for a 2016 340. Out of the box, the 340 felt a lot more powerful than the tuned 335. After putting a BM3 Stage 2 on the 340, it's just a beast.

Mileage was insanely better in the 340 vs 335 (went from 28MPG to around 36MPG), but as others mentioned, electric steering is a lot more numb and not as connected. But, with the electric steering, you pick up on fuel savings.

G20 is supposed to feel better than the F30, but haven't had a chance to really throw one of those around to confirm.

[schernov]

Originally Posted by Wires

I had a 2008 335 with Dinan Stage 2, and swapped it for a 2016 340. Out of the box, the 340 felt a lot more powerful than the tuned 335. After putting a BM3 Stage 2 on the 340, it's just a beast.

Mileage was insanely better in the 340 vs 335 (went from 28MPG to around 36MPG), but as others mentioned, electric steering is a lot more numb and not as connected. But, with the electric steering, you pick up on fuel savings.

G20 is supposed to feel better than the F30, but haven't had a chance to really throw one of those around to confirm.

For a short period of time we also had a 2011 135 n55 with Dinan stage 3 tune exhaust and suspension. 2009 n54 without tune felt better although 2011 had more power but not as smooth. I sold it because I could not fix the wind noise. New door seals, windows adjusted by BMW master tech who spent 3 hours on it. Drove me nuts.

[eff32fl]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Just to confirm, my car has the static 704 suspension. So did the M340i that I owned, but it was an xDrive and I have this feeling that xDrive made the G20 704 suspension more rigid, but that’s just a feeling. I don’t think I can necessarily comment on how the chassis rotates with either the E90 or F30. I never tracked my E90 or even did an autocross in it and I haven’t in my F30 either. I can say I can’t tell any difference in my ability to take a tight exit ramp or on ramp at a speed a fair amount above the posted limit.

Since I have an automatic I guess I can’t comment on any laggyness of the motor. I think it’s pretty universal with BMW automatic transmissions that they have a little bit of a slow tip in. They don’t just surge with power the way some others do. You have to be a little intentional with your acceleration. But, the G20 B58/ZF8 is not like that. It doesn’t have the overly eager feeling a lot of cars do, but the tip in is immediate and super smooth!! That ZF transmission is as close to perfection in its tuning with the B58 as is humanly possible. That is the one mechanical thing I miss about the M340i. The B58/ZF8 combination in the F30 is very good, but it is not the virtual perfection the M340i has.

I like the sound of my B58 a lot. It would sound even better with the M exhaust or, even better than that, with the MPPSK!! That’s probably the very best thing about the ZHP, is the MPPSK and the LSD!!

I can second this. 340i (or 440i) with the B58 and MPPSK is wonderful. Buttery smooth and sounds amazing.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Just to confirm, my car has the static 704 suspension. So did the M340i that I owned, but it was an xDrive and I have this feeling that xDrive made the G20 704 suspension more rigid, but that’s just a feeling. I don’t think I can necessarily comment on how the chassis rotates with either the E90 or F30. I never tracked my E90 or even did an autocross in it and I haven’t in my F30 either. I can say I can’t tell any difference in my ability to take a tight exit ramp or on ramp at a speed a fair amount above the posted limit.

Since I have an automatic I guess I can’t comment on any laggyness of the motor. I think it’s pretty universal with BMW automatic transmissions that they have a little bit of a slow tip in. They don’t just surge with power the way some others do. You have to be a little intentional with your acceleration. But, the G20 B58/ZF8 is not like that. It doesn’t have the overly eager feeling a lot of cars do, but the tip in is immediate and super smooth!! That ZF transmission is as close to perfection in its tuning with the B58 as is humanly possible. That is the one mechanical thing I miss about the M340i. The B58/ZF8 combination in the F30 is very good, but it is not the virtual perfection the M340i has.

I like the sound of my B58 a lot. It would sound even better with the M exhaust or, even better than that, with the MPPSK!! That’s probably the very best thing about the ZHP, is the MPPSK and the LSD!!

Yep, gotcha. Wouldn't be surprised if xDrive made the 704 suspension more rigid because it's supporting a bit more weight, low down in the car.

Good to know about the rotation part. I don't autocross or do track days, but love turning traction off and feeling it beautifully step out by a few degrees on roundabout or low speed right / left hand turns.

BTW - I know you're in Chicago - any good roads?! I do Lake Shore up to Sheridan, then Sheridan north to Lake Forest. It's the most fun road I've found though, as you may know, can get busy and has lots of cops. Other than that I can basically only have fun in the boonies in Northern Illinois haha.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by schernov

340 with MPPsk is definitely no laggy.
Both of our cars are manuals. Both 704 suspension.
Awd can shovel better off the line.
You should drive e90 and f30 back to back.

Still nothing beats a non M z3 coupe with 3.0m54 for all around comfort and feel in all four seasons.

Got it. Yeah, I drove my e90 and a carmax m240i back to back but really preferred mine. Obviously though an m240i is not a 340i and I wonder if the longer wheelbase and the fact it's a sedan would make my mind enjoy it more, haha.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Yep, gotcha. Wouldn't be surprised if xDrive made the 704 suspension more rigid because it's supporting a bit more weight, low down in the car.

Good to know about the rotation part. I don't autocross or do track days, but love turning traction off and feeling it beautifully step out by a few degrees on roundabout or low speed right / left hand turns.

BTW - I know you're in Chicago - any good roads?! I do Lake Shore up to Sheridan, then Sheridan north to Lake Forest. It's the most fun road I've found though, as you may know, can get busy and has lots of cops. Other than that I can basically only have fun in the boonies in Northern Illinois haha.

I never turn off traction control, but I do take tight cloverleafs at speeds 10 - 20 mph higher than the yellow speed limit sign indicates. I’m more conservative in my car, because of putting wear on my own tires. But I have taken lots of them very quickly in BMW’s cars at BMW driving events. Back when they did events at Arlington Race Track I had my own course I would drive and I would take all four cloverleaf ramps at Euclid and 53 and at Palatine Road and 53 and go as fast as I could. It was fun! To be honest even a stripped down 320i xDrive on square all season runflats held the road well. I could go well above the posted speed limit. I miss those days!

You drive right by my condo! I am at Granville and Broadway, just three streets west of Sheridan. I LOVE driving up Sheridan Road to Lake Forest! Mostly for the beauty, because the speed limits are pretty low. I like to take that drive whenever I start to feel discouraged about the current state of things in Chicago. Kind of surprisingly I don’t get stuck behind slow pokes very often. That really curvy part just north of Tower Road is fun, but the speed limit is low and it’s so twisty you can’t go much faster than the speed limit anyway. You probably know more fun areas in the boonies of Northern Illinois than I do.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by Wires

I had a 2008 335 with Dinan Stage 2, and swapped it for a 2016 340. Out of the box, the 340 felt a lot more powerful than the tuned 335. After putting a BM3 Stage 2 on the 340, it's just a beast.

Mileage was insanely better in the 340 vs 335 (went from 28MPG to around 36MPG), but as others mentioned, electric steering is a lot more numb and not as connected. But, with the electric steering, you pick up on fuel savings.

G20 is supposed to feel better than the F30, but haven't had a chance to really throw one of those around to confirm.

Yeah, one of my buddies has a g20 330i rwd msport track handling pack and I don’t like it. No steering feel or chassis feedback sadly, no idea what the back end is doing at any time.

[scotthilly]

For anyone interested, I had a turo 2016 330i rwd m sport track handling pack, with the zf8, I rented last week. Below are some of my notes and impressions. My dad and I took the car on some mountain roads and compared it to his 2019 VW GTI 6mt performance pack.

Ride quality - the 330 was fantastic here, and the adaptive m really impressed me. I heard a lot of negativity around the adaptive system but have heard it was updated for lci. It rode well, handled bumps / body control well, and I enjoyed it. I was surprised.

Steering feel - on center feel on par with gti, this has the vss so it was quick and direct. I liked that aspect of it. With that said, the feedback getting towards the limit was completely numb, like a Volvo. The faster you go the less feedback there is and that was super dissapointing. With PS4S and m3 control arms I think it'd match the gti if not be better, and people never complain about that steering.

Balance - it feels super balanced, but it will. not. oversteer. Even with traction / stability completely off, it was impossible to get it to rotate. It understeered more than the gti and was slower on corner exit. Super dissapointed here, though you could feel the rotation decently well.

It did have a 235 yokohama / 265 ps4as stagger which i think did zero favors. As it stands, the understeer was pretty brutal. For my liking, and to feel similar to the e90 with the stagger, the f30 would need to be a 245 square setup, m3 control arms, and potentially even a different suspension.

Those are my notes and hope they help others. The f30 is a good base platform but at the limit it falters. C&D did an article once showing that f30 wheels toe in massively at the limit to induce understeer, and you can feel it! the e90 is more fun in that respect.

Vs a g20, i feel the steering is better and there's more chassis feedback. The LSD in the g20 doesn't add much to be totally honest, at least on a 330. Hope this helps!

[tturedraider]

scotthilly, great write up! I owe you a PM and I’m super late with it. I’ll get it done in the next day or so.