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      07-21-2017, 09:12 AM   #23
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The idea that we are "free" or have "free speech" is also not entirely true. We have greater freedoms than many other countries but there is a huge list of things we aren't allowed to say or do.

Similar to the Canadian example above, we set limits.
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      07-21-2017, 12:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The state of CA has done the same thing, banning travel to TX, KS, NC, AL, KY, and SD because they don't agree with their laws.
Hogwash. The state had just said it won't fund trips for government employees to states with ignorant, homophobic laws.

The Privileges and Immunities Clause of the Constitution guarantees that any Californian can still go to any state he or she chooses, even one with a social view that hasn't changed since the antebellum South. They're free not to visit those states, too.

The same applies to corporations, because they're people, too, my friend!

Now, if Alabama made it a crime for Cletus to say he doesn't want to visit San Francisco because of all the homa-sex-shulls who live there, you would have a valid comparison.
The same logic applies - sorry if you don't like it.
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      07-21-2017, 12:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The idea that we are "free" or have "free speech" is also not entirely true. We have greater freedoms than many other countries but there is a huge list of things we aren't allowed to say or do.

Similar to the Canadian example above, we set limits.
Like what things aren't we allowed to say? ("Do" doesn't apply, because we are talking about free speech).
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      07-21-2017, 06:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The same logic applies - sorry if you don't like it.
You oviously don't understand basic principles of logic.

Your local junior college probably offers a logic class in the math department. It might help you understand the world around you a little better.

Or you could start here...

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      07-21-2017, 06:38 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Like what things aren't we allowed to say? ("Do" doesn't apply, because we are talking about free speech).
Categories of speech that fall outside of its protection are obscenity, child pornography, defamation, incitement to violence and true threats of violence, incitement to suicide.

Then if you want to get into reality, look at all of things you can't say at work or you will be fired. Law will allow it, reality is your work puts all kinds of restrictions on you.
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      07-21-2017, 10:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Like what things aren't we allowed to say? ("Do" doesn't apply, because we are talking about free speech).
Categories of speech that fall outside of its protection are obscenity, child pornography, defamation, incitement to violence and true threats of violence, incitement to suicide.

Then if you want to get into reality, look at all of things you can't say at work or you will be fired. Law will allow it, reality is your work puts all kinds of restrictions on you.
What speech would be considered obscene? Not sure that speech can be pornographic? Including defamation in the above, these are not expressions of opinions.
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      07-21-2017, 11:26 PM   #29
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I grew up watching sesame street...I guess that's why I'm so smart.
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      07-21-2017, 11:46 PM   #30
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Wow I never knew Schumer and gillibrand were pawns of the evil Mr Trump.

Do you think the Russians are forcing those new York senators to sponsor this bill?
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      07-23-2017, 04:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
What speech would be considered obscene? Not sure that speech can be pornographic? Including defamation in the above, these are not expressions of opinions.
You're not free to yell "Fire" in a crowd, if you are really interested in the rest just search on it. You seem just interested enough to keep asking questions but not enough to look it up yourself.

Here are some examples -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions
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      07-23-2017, 05:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
What speech would be considered obscene? Not sure that speech can be pornographic? Including defamation in the above, these are not expressions of opinions.
You're not free to yell "Fire" in a crowd, if you are really interested in the rest just search on it. You seem just interested enough to keep asking questions but not enough to look it up yourself.

Here are some examples -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions
If you can't distinguish between these examples and political free speech, then I can't help you. And these limits of speech are nothing like Canada and EU.
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      07-23-2017, 06:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
If you can't distinguish between these examples and political free speech, then I can't help you. And these limits of speech are nothing like Canada and EU.
Thanks, I said originally said -
Quote:
The idea that we are "free" or have "free speech" is also not entirely true. We have greater freedoms than many other countries but there is a huge list of things we aren't allowed to say or do.
you asked for examples and I gave you some. You seem to disagree with something I never said.
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      07-23-2017, 10:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
If you can't distinguish between these examples and political free speech, then I can't help you. And these limits of speech are nothing like Canada and EU.
Thanks, I said originally said -
Quote:
The idea that we are "free" or have "free speech" is also not entirely true. We have greater freedoms than many other countries but there is a huge list of things we aren't allowed to say or do.
you asked for examples and I gave you some. You seem to disagree with something I never said.
Sorry - I did misread what you said - my error. I don't think it's a huge list, by I did misinterpret your point.
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      07-23-2017, 10:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Canada doesn't have free speech. You can't say anything against nationalities, homosexuality, and other special interest groups or you can be fined or jailed. Canada has used "hate speech" laws to censor free speech.
Again in your misguided position, you're mistaking freedom of speech with hate speech. No, in Canada hate towards one group or other is not tolerated whether be verbal or written..

Again another fault of Canada in your opinion.

Have a nice evening...
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      07-23-2017, 10:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Again in your misguided position, you're mistaking freedom of speech with hate speech. No, in Canada hate towards one group or other is not tolerated whether be verbal or written..

Again another fault of Canada in your opinion.

Have a nice evening...
So then anything that someone says against the President of the United States and his administration is hate speech?
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      07-23-2017, 10:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
So then anything that someone says against the President of the United States and his administration is hate speech?
Disagreement with policies of the president or the prime minister is not considered hate speech. Advocating hate groups like the KKK or any colour supremists won't be given the light of day up here.

You won't believe the power of the human rights commission, in Ontario anyways. Supersedes most court rulings..
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      07-23-2017, 10:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Disagreement with policies of the president or the prime minister is not considered hate speech. Advocating hate groups like the KKK or any colour supremists won't be given the light of day up here.

You won't believe the power of the human rights commission, in Ontario anyways. Supersedes most court rulings..
I didn't say anything about disagreement with policies. I was talking about personal attacks on the President and the administration. Is "Trump is an asshole" considered hate speech?
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      07-23-2017, 11:05 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
I didn't say anything about disagreement with policies. I was talking about personal attacks on the President and the administration. Is "Trump is an asshole" considered hate speech?
No, saying Trump is an asshole is not hate speech. It's vulgar but not hateful. Btw vulgar seems to be something that's pretty common in this administration.

This is how Canada interprets hate speech,

Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[3] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."

Section 318 prescribes imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years for anyone who advocates genocide. The Code defines genocide as the destruction of an "identifiable group." The Code defines an "identifiable group" as "any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."

Section 319 prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who incites hatred against any identifiable group.
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      07-23-2017, 11:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Again in your misguided position, you're mistaking freedom of speech with hate speech. No, in Canada hate towards one group or other is not tolerated whether be verbal or written..

Again another fault of Canada in your opinion.

Have a nice evening...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
No, saying Trump is an asshole is not hate speech. It's vulgar but not hateful. Btw vulgar seems to be something that's pretty common in this administration.

This is how Canada interprets hate speech,

Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[3] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."

Section 318 prescribes imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years for anyone who advocates genocide. The Code defines genocide as the destruction of an "identifiable group." The Code defines an "identifiable group" as "any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."

Section 319 prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who incites hatred against any identifiable group.
There is a huge difference between those bolded statements. Big difference between hating one group and promoting genocide.
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      07-24-2017, 04:55 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Disagreement with policies of the president or the prime minister is not considered hate speech. Advocating hate groups like the KKK or any colour supremists won't be given the light of day up here.

You won't believe the power of the human rights commission, in Ontario anyways. Supersedes most court rulings..
In the U.S.A., even most "hate speech" it's legal, unless it's an actual threat or likely to incite immediate violence.

In National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977) 432 U.S. 43, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the right of neo-Nazis to march through an Illinois town that had a very high population of Holocaust survivors. The ACLU lawyers who represented them said they found the Nazis' message reprehensible, but defended their right to express it.
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      07-24-2017, 08:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
I didn't say anything about disagreement with policies. I was talking about personal attacks on the President and the administration. Is "Trump is an asshole" considered hate speech?
No it's not hate speech but change what was said to a direct threat and see what happens.
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      07-24-2017, 07:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
There is a huge difference between those bolded statements. Big difference between hating one group and promoting genocide.
How does one know which form of hate speech leads to killings and genocide? I've heard on this forum, not this specific thread, that once someone called for carpet bombing all Muslims. This is a forum that anyone can easily express their opinion. What he said is considered hate speech. Just imagine if he was in a position of power, that's why all form of hate speech needs to be stopped regardless of his freedom of speech right...

Have a great evening.
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      07-25-2017, 04:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
How does one know which form of hate speech leads to killings and genocide? I've heard on this forum, not this specific thread, that once someone called for carpet bombing all Muslims. This is a forum that anyone can easily express their opinion. What he said is considered hate speech. Just imagine if he was in a position of power, that's why all form of hate speech needs to be stopped regardless of his freedom of speech right...
The problem is that one person's "hate speech" is another's free expression.

What if someone really is a religious nutter who sincerely believes that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death? Should we muzzle them?

Is it hate speech to call that person a nutter? Is it hate speech to call television evangelists a bunch of crooks?

The Church of Scientology is quick to cry "hate speech" when former members expose it as an abusive, money-grubbing space alien cult, but it then launches smear campaigns against those former members that are far more hateful.

If everybody was more civil, it would be easier to have discussions, but a ban on "hate speech" will always affect one some viewpoints (usually the minority) more than others. Only by defending the rights of all to speak freely can we defend our own rights as individuals.
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