[AmuroRay]

Hey everyone,

If you could, can you get me a picture and/or measurement of your intercooler fin density?
I have the VRSF Competition, Race and ER, but I’m still looking for Wagner Evolution (1,2 and 3) VRSF 5”, CTS/AA, ATM/CSF, etc.


This is ER - looks like 16 fins an inch


This is VRSF HD 6.5 - looks like 20 fins per inch

[visionaut]

ATM is 13. Must be custom..
I found out when my fin comb didn’t fit - 12s too coarse and 14s too fine.

Tom

[AmuroRay]

Looks like another member got the ER and it’s 18 fins per inch.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by visionaut

ATM is 13. Must be custom..
I found out when my fin comb didn’t fit - 12s too coarse and 14s too fine.

Tom

Thank you for doing this

[mike@x-ph.com]

measuring fin density is useless if none of the other factors are being measure as well. But since this is becoming the norm on this forum here is the MAD intercooler fin density

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

measuring fin density is useless if none of the other factors are being measure as well. But since this is becoming the norm on this forum here is the MAD intercooler fin density

I appreciate it, but I can't do much without a scale for measurement.


ER intercooler:

[FaRKle!]

You have to be a bit careful with how you look at FPI because some manufacturers change that as you go deeper into the core. I've seen it where the outer most layer has a different FPI than some of the internal layers. Additionally, I've seen where the upper part (stepped) core has a different FPI than the lower core on 2-piece designs.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I appreciate it, but I can't do much without a scale for measurement.


ER intercooler:

I'll try my best to do it soon, no promises as we are overwhelmed

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

You have to be a bit careful with how you look at FPI because some manufacturers change that as you go deeper into the core. I've seen it where the outer most layer has a different FPI than some of the internal layers. Additionally, I've seen where the upper part (stepped) core has a different FPI than the lower core on 2-piece designs.

You sure? I've not seen anything like this on any of the intercoolers I've inspected so far, but it's small sample size. Still, I'd like to do as apples to apples comparison as I can.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

You sure? I've not seen anything like this on any of the intercoolers I've inspected so far, but it's small sample size. Still, I'd like to do as apples to apples comparison as I can.

Yes. I've seen it myself.

[visionaut]

The ATM is 13 FPI throughout. In fact I believe it may be a single-piece core, as I couldn’t detect any internal core changes or seams, vertically or horizontally along the “L” as is typical on many other ICs. I can view straight through from front to back along any fin channel..

I’d agree with FaRKle! that fin density is but one part of the design solution in looking at thermal efficiency, loading or heat transfer rates for an IC. The fins do only a piece of the job.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by visionaut

The ATM is 13 FPI throughout. In fact I believe it may be a single-piece core, as I couldn’t detect any internal core changes or seams, vertically or horizontally along the “L” as is typical on many other ICs. I can view straight through from front to back along any fin channel..

I’d agree with FaRKle! that fin density is but one part of the design solution in looking at thermal efficiency, loading or heat transfer rates for an IC. The fins do only a piece of the job.

ATM advertises that their core is purpose built, and is literally one unit unlike other intercoolers.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by visionaut

The ATM is 13 FPI throughout. In fact I believe it may be a single-piece core, as I couldn’t detect any internal core changes or seams, vertically or horizontally along the “L” as is typical on many other ICs. I can view straight through from front to back along any fin channel..

Yup, they use a single core for the whole thing, and the same fin pitch throughout.

[AmuroRay]

Wagner Evo Comp 2 - I'm not impressed.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Wagner Evo Comp 2 - I'm not impressed.

Are you certain that's a pic of a real Wagner Evo Comp 2? It looks NOTHING like my Wagner Evo Comp 1 in terms of build quality, fin count, much less the build of the IC itself. The tubes on my Evo Comp 1 are way more square. I'll have to figure out a way to get a fin measurement as the IC is mounted on the car.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Are you certain that's a pic of a real Wagner Evo Comp 2? It looks NOTHING like my Wagner Evo Comp 1 in terms of build quality, fin count, much less the build of the IC itself. The tubes on my Evo Comp 1 are way more square. I'll have to figure out a way to get a fin measurement as the IC is mounted on the car.

I believe it is - It was posted here:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1800830&page=4

From this thread:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1788934
You'll note is has the Wagner Sticker on it.

I understand the fin density is limited by intercooler volume. Phoenix Racing?BMS and VRSF both have approximately 16fins/in in this package.
To increase the fin density further without impacting flow, I know VRSF stated that they needed to increase volume of the intercooler. It's why the Competition model is thicker (more depth)

[XutvJet]

Here's my Wagner EVO Comp 1 intercooler. It definitely looks way different from the one posted earlier. Perhaps Wagner changed the design of the EVO Comp at some point. Note the difference in tube shape and size and build quality. Fin count appears to be higher too.

I had to cut a piece of 1" wide plastic to get a fin count. I'm seeing about 18 fins per inch.

[AmuroRay]

The Evo 1 comp is more fin dense with less volume? I don’t know if any upgrades to Wagner’s cores since 2013/4 - they weren’t dense then, and apparently not now.

But yours shows differently.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The Evo 1 comp is more fin dense with less volume? I don’t know if any upgrades to Wagner’s cores since 2013/4 - they weren’t dense then, and apparently not now.

But yours shows differently.

I bought my IC back in the fall and it was shipped from Wagner. All the photos of the EVO Comps on the Wagner and vendor websites show an IC that looks like mine and not the one you depicted. Weird.

[AmuroRay]

Wagner Performance 1 - looks like 14 fins/inch

[visionaut]

Hey Mr. Ray,

I've been following along with interest to see where this is going, in comparing fin densities, and also by examination, some quality of manufacture.

Is the plan to calculate/examine the ICs thermal characteristics, or to just see & compare what's being used out there?

I''d like to see the former, as a curious aero engineer. ;-) It'd be cool to correlate the different designs, with calculated vs actual performance, and their real-world implementation characteristics. But it's an ambitious task...

If the goal is analysis, I'm curious how you're going to find out the fin densities in the 'hot flow' direction for these ICs? All we are looking at here so far are the 'cold flow' fin densities. The 'hot flow' direction in bar-and-plate air-to-air heat exchanger designs typically employs a lower fin density than the cold flow direction uses.

As you're aware, fin density isn't just a 'more is better' thing, but an optimization, a balancing act. At the optimum fin density, you get the best balance between high heat transfer at close fin spacings and reduced flow due to the increased pressure drop associated with narrower fin air channels. If the fins are too dense, they cut convection due to boundary-layer collision between the fins, and greatly increase pressure loss. Heat soak can also set in at the exit side due to poor flow through. If they're too spaced, the reduced surface area lowers heat transfer performance.

If we're interested in doing any volumetric thermal efficiency/flow effectiveness calcs, when folks measure an ICs fins, it's also important that we know the depth of the core for that given fin density. Along with the height and width (cross-section of that core section. The flow length factors into determining fin density to optimize/balance the heat transfer and pressure drop across each section.

Thx for collecting this info.

Tom

[alohasurftoad]

we need to have youtuber Project Farm, do a "which is best" comparo.