[ATX78703]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

The F30 steering and handling is the universal complaint about this car. It affects the 335 more than the 328-but BOTH none the less.

The 328, the 4 cylinder in overall press, more times than not it is heralded and is the most competitive drivetrain in it's class. It came out #1 in a 7-8 car shoot out and has slayed the ATS and the new IS.

The 4 cylinder is not the problem with the F30.

therein lies the summary of the f30. i think the combination of the turbo engines and the 8at has created ridiculous speed, acceleration and efficiency. the universal knock is the steering. i see mixed reviews on the handling mainly because the suspension/tire/wheel set up can be so variable between all the test cars.

[KevRyd]

Can you elaborate on this engine's failing point?

"If this test was E90 335 vs F30 335, it would be an even better head to head-they would not try and make it about the engine which is largely a failing point."

Wards to 10 Engines 2013:
3.0L N55 Turbocharged DOHC I-6

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

In the totality of say 30 reviews of all 328 and 335 F30s, the overwhelming majority rave about the N20.

If this test was E90 335 vs F30 335, it would be an even better head to head-they would not try and make it about the engine which is largely a failing point.

The N20 misses that great sound-I admit it. But it is FASTER, easier to tune/modify, and in the real world gets noticeably better fuel economy. The N20 is not the place to go in order to fly the flag that the E90 is better than the F30. In my view and many others, the N20 is the largest step forward from the E90. It's one of the main reasons I never put my money on a 328 before. It was always more of a car I would think of for my wife. The N20 bridged much of the gap to the N55 that the N52 never could.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Can you elaborate on this engine's failing point?

"If this test was E90 335 vs F30 335, it would be an even better head to head-they would not try and make it about the engine which is largely a failing point."

For the first time in a while I don't agree with Jamesonv...

They chose the right car but I think this is a case of the E90 328i biting off more than it can chew. They chose a rock star to compare against a car on its way to the history books. They can come up with whatever logic they want but the F30 328i is light years ahead of the E90 328i. Look at the reviews from all auto mags, it's come on top in every one of them, over and above winning engine of the year awards, being included in wards 10 best engines etc. They chose the right car but their conclusions are questionable given the status for the F30 328i

[KevRyd]

Unless I missed something, I think that was the very point of J's post.

Kevin

Originally Posted by 300hp

For the first time in a while I don't agree with Jamesonv...

They chose the right car but I think this is a case of the E90 328i biting off more than it can chew. They chose a rock star to compare against a car on its way to the history books. They can come up with whatever logic they want but the F30 328i is light years ahead of the E90 328i. Look at the reviews from all auto mags, it's come on top in every one of them, over and above winning engine of the year awards, being included in wards 10 best engines etc. They chose the right car but their conclusions are questionable given the status for the F30 328i

[300hp]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Unless I missed something, I think that was the very point of J's post.

Kevin

Damn, I love to disagree with that guy. Next time I will get him, can't believe I just agreed with him again

[KevRyd]

Under the same driving conditions and gas, I am not seeing big difference between the N20 and N55.

Kevin

Originally Posted by 300hp

What flies in the face of logic for me is the trashing of the N20s mpg. I think most would agree that if you can improve a cars performance while maintaining its fuel efficiency that would be a win win situation and very commendable in its own right. In this case BMW actually improved the mpg, and they are trashed for this. That's the one area that stood out to me the most. Otherwise they are entitled to their own opinion.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Can you elaborate on this engine's failing point?

"If this test was E90 335 vs F30 335, it would be an even better head to head-they would not try and make it about the engine which is largely a failing point."

Wards to 10 Engines 2013:
3.0L N55 Turbocharged DOHC I-6

Kevin

I think he's meaning that making the comparison about the engine is a failing point of the magazine article, rather than the engine being the failing point of the car.

At least that's how I read it.

[tuned2ride]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I think he's meaning that making the comparison about the engine is a failing point of the magazine article, rather than the engine being the failing point of the car.

At least that's how I read it.

I rather think that the N20 is one of the worst attribute of that F30. It lacks the visceral engine note experience that distinguished compact BMWs from the rest. With an aftermarket exhaust, it can be improved ... but not quite as satisfyiing like a 184HP 325i E46 was.

The N55 is now a no-brainer if you were used to BMW's world. The 4 cylinder is a MAJOR problem with the F30

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by martyl

This is a very balanced perspective IMO. I love my E90 but I'm getting a 335i in October and I certainly prefer that over my E90 in many ways. Regarding your comments about the steering rack; is there any evidence they are updating it again for the 2014 model? Thanks.

No way to no how many more revisions of the steering rack there will be or when we will get them.

Originally Posted by dinonz

Which is exactly what I said to begin with...

Then we agree, hooray

Originally Posted by 300hp

What flies in the face of logic for me is the trashing of the N20s mpg. I think most would agree that if you can improve a cars performance while maintaining its fuel efficiency that would be a win win situation and very commendable in its own right. In this case BMW actually improved the mpg, and they are trashed for this. That's the one area that stood out to me the most. Otherwise they are entitled to their own opinion.

Agreed.

The car was larger, faster and showed a near 10% improvement in THEIR driving. Some car makers would kill for a 10% improvement. And with the larger size, more equipment, the F30 was 26lbs heavier...26lbs. The ER90 had 16" wheels. Just having 18" runflats and wheels would negate a single pound difference between the two. That is progress. It also did not show braking, slalom etc, a place where other F30 328's have shown .90-.91g and 109ft from 0 even with modern low rolling resistance summer tires.

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Can you elaborate on this engine's failing point?

"If this test was E90 335 vs F30 335, it would be an even better head to head-they would not try and make it about the engine which is largely a failing point."

Wards to 10 Engines 2013:
3.0L N55 Turbocharged DOHC I-6

Kevin

I think you misread my statement. I meant them calling the N20 it's failing point, not the N55. By both the E90 and F30 both having an N55, they could not pick the engine as a sticking point, make sense now?

Originally Posted by 300hp

For the first time in a while I don't agree with Jamesonv...

See above, clarified.

Originally Posted by 300hp

Damn, I love to disagree with that guy. Next time I will get him, can't believe I just agreed with him again

LOL. Maybe next time.

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Under the same driving conditions and gas, I am not seeing big difference between the N20 and N55.

Kevin

It's all about how you drive the two engines. See the N55 is always going to be 3.0L and consuming the amount of fuel needed to run 3.0L. The N20, needs enough to supply 2.0L. Less is less. But driven a bit hard, especially under WOT, the N55 requires the fuel needed for say 9-10psi, the N20 needs fuel for 17-18psi. So driven with serious intent at WOT, the two engines consume very similar amounts of fuel. But no one drives WOT all the time. So it's a matter of what your mix is like.

When trying to get the best fuel economy, I had an 8spd auto N55 for a week and was able to get 35.5mpg on my mixed loop to work. Same time my 6mt N20 did 39.9mpg. Now a 6mt N55 would have been a bit worse, maybe 33mpg. Now had I started really hammering both cars, the gap would have shrunk. I think that is pretty fair and impartial.

Originally Posted by dinonz

I think he's meaning that making the comparison about the engine is a failing point of the magazine article, rather than the engine being the failing point of the car.

At least that's how I read it.

Something more like that-I clarified in the reply above.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by tuned2ride

I rather think that the N20 is one of the worst attribute of that F30. It lacks the visceral engine note experience that distinguished compact BMWs from the rest. With an aftermarket exhaust, it can be improved ... but not quite as satisfyiing like a 184HP 325i E46 was.

The N55 is now a no-brainer if you were used to BMW's world.

Sadly I think their hand is forced by government regulations the world over where the average fuel consumption of the entire range has to meet limits. You can't get a 6 cylinder Audi A4 now. All manufacturers are going to fewer cylinder turbo engines to maintain the power levels, but with lower emissions and better fuel economy.

I'm wondering if the next incarnation of the 3 series will have a 6 cylinder version at all (perhaps only the M3) and even the 335i might be a 4 cylinder. I doubt it's a decision they took lightly given BMW's reputation for making sweet 6 cylinder engines, but it's a sign of the times.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by tuned2ride

I rather think that the N20 is one of the worst attribute of that F30. It lacks the visceral engine note experience that distinguished compact BMWs from the rest. With an aftermarket exhaust, it can be improved ... but not quite as satisfyiing like a 184HP 325i E46 was.

It is about priorities.

The sound of the N20 is not satisfying. Aside from a cold idle and outside the car where it sounds like a diesel, it has a LACK of sound. An exhaust and intake helps tons, but it will never sound like an I6.

Meanwhile, whether the E46 325 like you describe or the last E90s, they sounded great-so smooth, so sexy. But guess what. Slow is slow. My wife who insists on tunes, intakes and exhausts on her cars, she called them out as too slow for her. Do you know how futile it is to spend $1500-2k on a, normally aspirated BMW like that to get an exhaust/intake and tune to get maybe 10-15whp and finally maybe break 200whp/200tq and still be a slow car?

The N20 out of the box makes 235-245whp and 240-260ft lbs of tq and at LOW rpm. That is night and day. And $800 on exhaust, $400 on downpipe and a $400 tune, that same money you spent on the NA car, I have 300whp/300+tq, we are talking high 12's@106+mph and 0-60 in about 4.5. You needed the N54/N55 to get there where the N52 needed a $5k blower to do what the N20 just did. That is great news.

So you can be in the camp that hates it for its sound. Or the camp that loves it for shrinking the gap between the 335 and 328. Go drive an E90 328 and 335 back to back-just floor it from 0-120. Then get into an F30 328 and 335 and do the same thing and wear sound proof ear muffs. That performance the N20 brings is quite a difference.

[tuned2ride]

You can't get a 6 cylinder Audi A4 now.

Not in USA/Canada but in Mexico and elsewhere, yes you can.

Is is called the A4 3.0T 272HP.
http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759114
http://www.audi.com.mx/etc/medialib/..._3_0_272hp.pdf

Kudos to Mercedes for still offering the C300.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Sadly I think their hand is forced by government regulations the world over where the average fuel consumption of the entire range has to meet limits. You can't get a 6 cylinder Audi A4 now. All manufacturers are going to fewer cylinder turbo engines to maintain the power levels, but with lower emissions and better fuel economy.

I'm wondering if the next incarnation of the 3 series will have a 6 cylinder version at all (perhaps only the M3) and even the 335i might be a 4 cylinder. I doubt it's a decision they took lightly given BMW's reputation for making sweet 6 cylinder engines, but it's a sign of the times.

Correct.

The MB C-class went to a small turbo 4, the ATS is there, the A4 as you noted. And guess what, the 3 series joined them and is faster than all and often equals their 6's performance with better fuel economy. So the BMW 328 has the best drivetrain in it's class. I think that's cool. But only when you come on here do you see people really poo-poo it.

[playground]

F30 sucks.

[tuned2ride]

Originally Posted by playground

F30 sucks.

I don't think that it "sucks", but it certainly got Lexus-ized in the process and needs more money to get it right. The N55 is now a MUST. The hardest thing to fix is the steering. 2014 5-series just got an improvement on that regard.... hopefully the F30 will get better like the 2001 E46, only 2 years after its introduction.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Correct.

The MB C-class went to a small turbo 4, the ATS is there, the A4 as you noted. And guess what, the 3 series joined them and is faster than all and often equals their 6's performance with better fuel economy. So the BMW 328 has the best drivetrain in it's class. I think that's cool. But only when you come on here do you see people really poo-poo it.

Yep - just like the troll post above.

[Phaeron]

I honestly do not under stand this obsession with cylinders. This idea that 4 cylinder equals cheap completely boggles my mind. The biggest reason it makes me scratch my head is this idea that a 6 cylinder is a premium engine.

I mean I have always grown up that if it isn't an V8 then it isn't worth notice, so this 6 cylinder snobbery is really funny. SO, I would think if people are up in arms about a 328i with a turbo 4 then they would be completely disinterested in the upcoming M3 and M4 with their turbo 6s especially since the E90s M3 came with a high revving N/A V8. People have no consistency.

[Greenkirby21]

Seems to me that if they would have just added the N20 to the E90 328i then it would have been perfect recipe.

Look at the numbers, the N20 is way faster than the N52 and gets much better gas mileage.

However, the F30 got fat and electronic steering which ruined it IMO (at least from loaner car I got)

[M3_WC]

Last two times I brought my M3 in for service. I got two different M-sport 328i's. Honestly thought they were terrible.

[timmyc]

Scumbag R&T

[tc328]

Well said..4 bangers will never come close to an I6

I will never pay over $45k for a 4 cylinder car....4 bangers are for japanese cars

Its sad to see BMW following the trend of other automakers

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

I honestly do not under stand this obsession with cylinders. This idea that 4 cylinder equals cheap completely boggles my mind. The biggest reason it makes me scratch my head is this idea that a 6 cylinder is a premium engine.

I mean I have always grown up that if it isn't an V8 then it isn't worth notice, so this 6 cylinder snobbery is really funny. SO, I would think if people are up in arms about a 328i with a turbo 4 then they would be completely disinterested in the upcoming M3 and M4 with their turbo 6s especially since the E90s M3 came with a high revving N/A V8. People have no consistency.

A 6 cylinder engine is naturally harmonically balanced, and thus smoother than 4 cylinders. 4 cylinder engines often use balance shafts to reduce this, but it's not completely eliminated.

Not all V8s are naturally harmoinically balanced either (depends on the V angle), but as you go up in cylinders the problem reduces due to more rapid firing of cylinders at the same RPM.

That's what makes a 6 cylinder such a sweet engine.

EDIT: Sorry - should have clarified that this is *straight* 6 not V6. V6 depending on the V angle will also have primary or secondary vibrations that are not naturally balanced out.